Engine Clacking Noise - Cracked Clutch Damage

[kinderwood]

Repair Part 2 (crankcase mated):

Got the cases bolted back together last weekend. Have to trim the excess sealant off. There's less excess than appears in the picture due to the shadows.

 

[fazil]

Do you use existing gaskets while bolting back together?
I think some of the gaskets are metal like cylinder gasket. Others are not. Not sure. Did you have to clean any gasket residue on the engine parts with sandpaper etc?

 

[kinderwood]

Do you use existing gaskets while bolting back together?
I think some of the gaskets are metal like cylinder gasket. Others are not. Not sure. Did you have to clean any gasket residue on the engine parts with sandpaper etc?

First, NO abrasives should be used, or are necessary. The cases are aluminum and therefore very soft compared to steel. I used this plastic scraper, brake cleaner, & WD-40 for cleaning gasket surfaces.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=titan%20mini%20scraper&sprefix=titan+mini+s%2Caps"]Titan Mini Scraper[/ame]


The crankcase halves are precision machined surfaces, there is no gasket. They receive a thin layer of specialized sealant. This is why abrasives are so dangerous, if you scratch the surfaces it will not form a tight seal. Threebond 1215 was the callout in the service manual. It's virtually impossible to find and not sold by Yamaha anymore. Yamabond 4 is the replacement for it (it's not exactly the same, but pretty close). Yamabond 4 is re-branded threebond 1184. Honda, Suzuki, they have their own branded versions.

The head gasket MUST be replaced if removed. The o-rings for the oil system MUST be replaced or you could loose oil pressure. These are the o-rings at the pump, pickup & oil pipe. The engine various cover gaskets should be replaced, but you may be able to get by re-using them. If they leak, it is easy enough to replace them with the engine installed on the bike. For peace of mind, I am replacing ALL removed gaskets and o-rings with new. The cost of them is minimal compared to the crank, clutch basket, clutch, and new bearings, so why not?

Edit: Also, the trans seal at the output shaft should be replaced. It cannot be replaced without splitting the cases. So you really don't want to get the engine together and find out it is leaking. #32 on this page:
Transmission Parts Diagram

 

[FinalImpact]

How did the plastigauge values come out on the replacement crank (for rods and mains)?
Did you install new bearings or reuse the old ones?
Last little bit: Were you able to order a crank with matching numbers?
Did you consider leaving the head on and pistons in place? Its best practice to remove them and it allows an oiled crank to be hand spun to check start up torque, but its also extra work.

Thanks and a Rep point sent your way for good measures! :thumbup:

To late now, but I'll throw this out for others:

For what its worth: in the US and overseas, the major auto makers use and call out various bonding materials. They usually come in larger quantities and cost less. They are of equal quality. Both Toyota and GM make a product which I would not hesitate to use on the bike. PN: Genuine Toyota Fluid 00295-00103 Formed-in-Place Oil Pan Gasket - 3 oz. Tube

MAF cleaner works extremely well at cutting even the best oils. I found that brake cleaner, paint thinner, and even lacquer thinner would not desolve Amsoil while Mass Air Flow sensor cleaner did a great job and leaves NO residue. Its good stuff!​

 

[ChanceCoats123]

How did the plastigauge values come out on the replacement crank (for rods and mains)?
Did you install new bearings or reuse the old ones?
Last little bit: Were you able to order a crank with matching numbers?
Did you consider leaving the head on and pistons in place? Its best practice to remove them and it allows an oiled crank to be hand spun to check start up torque, but its also extra work.

Thanks and a Rep point sent your way for good measures! :thumbup:

To late now, but I'll throw this out for others:

For what its worth: in the US and overseas, the major auto makers use and call out various bonding materials. They usually come in larger quantities and cost less. They are of equal quality. Both Toyota and GM make a product which I would not hesitate to use on the bike. PN: Genuine Toyota Fluid 00295-00103 Formed-in-Place Oil Pan Gasket - 3 oz. Tube

MAF cleaner works extremely well at cutting even the best oils. I found that brake cleaner, paint thinner, and even lacquer thinner would not desolve Amsoil while Mass Air Flow sensor cleaner did a great job and leaves NO residue. Its good stuff!​

I need to make myself a note about that. I always tell myself I'll remember to use MAF cleaner when you post about it, but then I forget to do it and I realize I'm doing way more work than I need to. :spank:

 

[kinderwood]

How did the plastigauge values come out on the replacement crank (for rods and mains)?
Did you install new bearings or reuse the old ones?
Last little bit: Were you able to order a crank with matching numbers?
Did you consider leaving the head on and pistons in place? Its best practice to remove them and it allows an oiled crank to be hand spun to check start up torque, but its also extra work.

Pistons were left in place. I removed the head simply because that was what the FSM and Clymer manual said to do to split the cases. There were so many steps involved and I wasn't sure what could be safely omitted, so I blindly followed their disassembly instructions. It does make more work, but it also allowed me to check all the oil passages and make sure they didn't get debris in them.

The crank was matched per bearing type, sized at "22222 1111". Case and rods are all "5s".

Regarding the main bearings. My crankcase is matched "5s". The crank is "2s". Per Yamaha's formula, case-crank-1=3 (black bearing). Plastigage indicated .002". Limits for new parts are .0013-.0023, service limit is .0039. So it measures comfortably inside recommended clearances.

Regarding the rod bearings. My rods are all "5s". The crank is "1s". Per Yamaha's formula, rod-crank=4 (green bearing). Plastigage indicated close to .002" inches, slightly less, maybe around .0018-.0019". Limits for new parts are .0011-.002", service limit is .0032". So clearance is on the larger side for new parts, service limit is much higher, so I think it's fine.

When I start up the engine I'll be monitoring oil PSI to make sure it looks ok.

Thanks for the rep. I'll have to keep the MAF cleaner in mind for future projects.

EDIT: To clarify, bearings were replaced. Old crank had different numbers. Don't remember what they were offhand.

 

[kinderwood]

Update:
Nothing to update. Waiting on parts

EDIT:Shipping out today, woohoo!

 

[kinderwood]

Repair Part 3 (generator & clutch installed):

Update and a few more pictures. Starting to look like less like a pile of oily metal and more like an engine again.

Gearshifter assembly:
Reinstalled, cover back on.

Clutch:
Built up clutch with new frictions, steels, and "primary driven gear" (clutch basket) . Two non-obvious things of mention for from my research.
1.Get the friction plates nice and saturated with oil before installing them (so they don't burn up on initial startup)
2.Install all the steel plates so the flat side faces the pressure plate. Helps them wear/warp/apply pressure nice and evenly around the circumference. This is not mentioned in the service manual but googlefu says it is good practice.

Generator:
This thing sucks. The flywheel (rotor) is a nightmare to get off and on. The center bolt is high torque (54 ft/lbs). I'm going to make a separate post about how I did it with pictures of my improvised tools. But, it's back together and the cover is on now. I did give it a good clean. A fine layer of metal powder was stuck against the inner magnet.

EDIT:Shouldn't have installed the generator cover yet, had to it take back off. Realized I needed to be able to hold the rotor stationary while installing the timing gear.

 

[FinalImpact]

Update and a few more pictures. Starting to look like less like a pile of oily metal and more like an engine again.

Gearshifter assembly:
Reinstalled, cover back on.

Clutch:
Built up clutch with new frictions, steels, and "primary driven gear" (clutch basket) . Two non-obvious things of mention for from my research.
1.Get the friction plates nice and saturated with oil before installing them (so they don't burn up on initial startup)
2.Install all the steel plates so the flat side faces the pressure plate. Helps them wear/warp/apply pressure nice and evenly around the circumference. This is not mentioned in the service manual but googlefu says it is good practice.

Generator:
This thing sucks. The flywheel (rotor) is a nightmare to get off and on. The center bolt is high torque (54 ft/lbs). I'm going to make a separate post about how I did it with pictures of my improved tools. But, it's back together and the cover is on now. I did give it a good clean. A fine layer of metal powder was stuck against the inner magnet.

Steels. What do you mean the "flat side" - both sides should be flat. Perhaps because they are stamped, are you saying one side has an edge you can feel from the stamping process?

Working at AAmco Transmission for 5 years = Yes, always soak wet clutches 24 hours before assembly.... I never looked in FSM for that detail (lack of); but I'm glad you caught that before assembly! :thumbup:

If you don't mind. Could you take some pictures of the head?
Wanted:
- intake & Exhaust ports
- combustion chamber
- Piston top at TDC

Thanks in advance!

 

[kinderwood]

Steels. What do you mean the "flat side" - both sides should be flat. Perhaps because they are stamped, are you saying one side has an edge you can feel from the stamping process?

[snip]

If you don't mind. Could you take some pictures of the head?
Wanted:
- intake & Exhaust ports
- combustion chamber
- Piston top at TDC

Thanks in advance!

Pictures, sure, will do. The head will be getting worked on soon with the crankcase getting finished up.

Regarding the steels, yup, exactly what I was trying to say. One is a sharp square edge, and the other rounded from the stamping process. Interesting to note is the surface finish is quite different on both sides. The square edge side looks like it was machined or ground flat. The rounded side has a satin finish. I unfortunately didn't take pictures of my parts, but I borrowed some from ebay listings to try and show it. It's more pronounced in person.

According to what I could find online, some people were of the opinion the flat side should face the pressure plate, some said it didn't matter. Everyone seemed to agree they should at least all face the same way. Having worked at a transmission shop, what do you think?

 

[FinalImpact]

Pictures, sure, will do. The head will be getting worked on soon with the crankcase getting finished up.

Regarding the steels, yup, exactly what I was trying to say. One is a sharp square edge, and the other rounded from the stamping process. Interesting to note is the surface finish is quite different on both sides. The square edge side looks like it was machined or ground flat. The rounded side has a satin finish. I unfortunately didn't take pictures of my parts, but I borrowed some from ebay listings to try and show it. It's more pronounced in person.

According to what I could find online, some people were of the opinion the flat side should face the pressure plate, some said it didn't matter. Everyone seemed to agree they should at least all face the same way. Having worked at a transmission shop, what do you think?

Honestly I don't think the steels matter as far as direction goes. The key ingredient is they slide smooth on the splines. I am surprised they have a different finish from side to side on the surface the clutch contacts. That seems odd. But I think you nailed it. Stamping deforms the steel and they were surfaced to clean that up (hence ground look), and this maintains variance in thickness by running them through a surface grinder.

In that shop; parts that meet spec were reused to save $$. So steels that measured good would be used again (its common practice).
We had 12"X12" flat stone with 800 grit wet paper on it. Usually just brush those edges off so both sides had the same texture. Plus it holds oil and keeps the frictions from sticking to the steels.

Were both OEM parts?

Its too bad they didn't just lighten the flywheel and use steel friction discs as the aluminum seems to give way if abused.

 

[kinderwood]

[snip]Were both OEM parts?

Its too bad they didn't just lighten the flywheel and use steel friction discs as the aluminum seems to give way if abused.

Pictures I pulled from ebay, but they do look exactly like the OEM parts I received from online dealer.

I would say the aluminum gives way even when not abused Blah

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As you already noted, the frictions should be soaked in motor oil before installation.

Many an FJR came out of the factory with "DRY" plates which stuck and shifted crappy.

An overnight soak solved the problem and shifting when from clunky to silky smooth...

Gtreat pic's and updates too, thanks!

 

[kinderwood]

Here's a few pics that were requested. I took pics with and without flash. Without flash is truer to life but somewhat blurry, flash over emphasized all the shadows but is sharper.

These are after ~23k miles. Up first is the piston/cylinder. When FinalImpact request pics, I had already started cleaning the piston tops, so I don't have any to show how they looked beforehand. Probably not my best idea, I figured I was already in there, so why not?

Also, I found a small nick in one of the cylinders when examining them. It's near the top of the stroke & very small, maybe 1/32". I can *just barely* feel the nick with my nail. The area around is worn differently than rest of bore. This suggest to me it occurred a while ago and was running like this. Maybe something got in the cylinder during a plug change? Don't think it left the factory with an imperfection like that. I'm going to leave it alone. The engine was running just fine before my clutch cracked. I will be checking compression once I'm done.

First pic is the piston top at TDC with flash. Second pic is piston top at TDC no flash. Third pic is of the bore with flash. Fourth pic is the nick I found.

 

[kinderwood]

Next is the head. I decided not to clean it since I don't want to disturb valve seating. First pic is with flash, second pic is no flash.

All bores and cylinder heads looked very similar so I only photographed one set.

 

[kinderwood]

As a point of reference, I would say the carbon build up on my piston tops was similar to this gentleman's.

Advrider Link

Edit: Maybe a little thicker actually. It was *just* barely thick enough that the recessions were starting to fill up changing the shape at the top. Just barely though.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

When you fill up, what grade of fuel would you say you most often use?

 

[kinderwood]

When you fill up, what grade of fuel would you say you most often use?

Regular 87 octane. For the first 10k of the bikes life I usually filled up at Wawa (convenience store like 7-11 for those away from the mid-atlantic). I was a poor college student. Now it usually gets Shell, Sunoco, or BP.

Working on cleaning up old gasket material from the deck and head to mount the head back on! Hopefully get it bolted on tonight. More pictures to come.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Also, I found a small nick in one of the cylinders when examining them. It's near the top of the stroke & very small, maybe 1/32". I can *just barely* feel the nick with my nail. The area around is worn differently than rest of bore. This suggest to me it occurred a while ago and was running like this.

It appears you still have hone marks on that cylinder with the "nick". Looking VERY, very closely at that spot, there is one very slight mark (actually 3, very, very fine) going downwards, no worse than hone mark. :thumbup:

If you still have the head off, IMO, I'd put the plugs back in, flip upside down, pour in a bunch of Seafoam for at least a day. Then take a tooth brush to get rid of any build up carbon. Unless you start spinning valves about, picking some carbon from one side of a valve seat and not the other, you won't hurt anything..

 

[kinderwood]

It appears you still have hone marks on that cylinder with the "nick". Looking VERY, very closely at that spot, there is one very slight scratch, no worse than hone mark. :thumbup:

If you still have the head off, IMO, I'd put the plugs back in, flip upside down, pour in a bunch of Seafoam for at least a day. Then take a tooth brush to get rid of any build up carbon. Unless you start spinning valves about, picking some carbon from one side of a valve seat and not the other, you won't hurt anything..

A good observation about the scoring, hadn't thought of that. I do have it off. So cleaning the valve face would ok?

If I understand correctly, I need to watch out for:
1) Rotating the valves
2) Double checking all carbon debris is removed from the valve seat area so it doesn't get jammed in there and cause a leaky valve