Engine Clacking Noise - Cracked Clutch Damage

[FinalImpact]

Once you get that far it probably won't be needed BUT, I would look at the oiling system in the FSM.

Follow the oil flow and perhaps put air pressure to it (you'd have to decide where), just so, IF there's crap, it flushed down and out (preferably to the pan) vs pushed farther up into the crankshaft/valves etc.

I believe there's an oil passage thu the main transmission clutch shaft and obviously the crankshaft.

Also, if not known, the oil pump runs off a chain at the rear of the clutch basket itself, farther down(the water pump runs off that). Point being, I wouldn't crank up the engine without the basket and chain connected to the pump...

Theoretically anything in the oil stream is in the oil filter. That said, inspecting the pickup, pump, and over pressure valve (don't want it stuck in bypass mode from debris in the seat holding it open) would not be a bad idea. If shop air is available, back flushing by injecting air into the the exterior port where the oil filter resides may push some into the pan. The good news is its aluminum and pretty soft vs steel.

 

[kinderwood]

Ok, so I'm going to work on getting the teeth cleaned up first. I was going to pick up some picks/hooks from Sears after work. Would these work?
Sears Pick and Hook Set
They're heat treated alloy steel, would these damage the gears?

 

[FinalImpact]

Ok, so I'm going to work on getting the teeth cleaned up first. I was going to pick up some picks/hooks from Sears after work. Would these work?
Sears Pick and Hook Set
They're heat treated alloy steel, would these damage the gears?

A good light and chisel tip blade or even a very small wood chisel couldn't hurt!

I allowed the machine shop to install cam bearings in a 460 c.i. ford during rebuild. I did all other assembly work. Primed it with oil, dropped in the dizzy and fired it up. Cranked it up to 2000 RPM to break in the new camshaft. About 60 sec into the run the stopped cold from 2000 RPM. I about cried!
Two of the cam bearings spun and seized to the cam. It was hell to get the cam out. But once out, I cut the steel shell bearing off and used a very sharp chisel to remove the babit from cam. Took the cam in and had it polished. Afterwards it meet spec and with new cam bearings installed and ALIGNED properly so the oil feeds actually lubed it, it live a happy life!

A little different scene than this but still a form of fusion and removal. So it can be done.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ok, so I'm going to work on getting the teeth cleaned up first. I was going to pick up some picks/hooks from Sears after work. Would these work?
Sears Pick and Hook Set
They're heat treated alloy steel, would these damage the gears?

I have a bunch like that, but their actual SS dental picks.

As stated above, the crank and gears are hardened and way harder than any aluminum pressed to it, ie, they'll be fine.

I would just start light and work your way up to larger tools if your not successful with the smaller pic's. Also, as posted above, a small, sharp chisel, carefully angled, should work well too. You should be angled, trying to remove the "not wanted parts" at an angle. I say that as worse case scenerio, if you were to take a # punch (commonly used to mark connecting rods and caps, main caps), with a hard enough hit, will leave a mark (not good in your case)..

Should you use a sharp, flat tool and have to tap at it, keep in mind everything is riding on bearings. You don't want to hammer the snot out of it but it should all come off.

I blew up a lower needle bearing on a connecting rod in the middle of an AMA MX race on a 125cc 1976 YZ 125. Besides the bearing failing, on each side of the connecting rod were a brass shim. That brass shim started to adhere to each crank half (on the inner adjacent surface). Obviously it wasn't hammered in like yours, but heat and failure allowed the various parts to bond.. I was able to get that brass off and rebuild the crank saving both crank halfs..

 

[kinderwood]

I got that pick set from Sears, a tiny flat precision screwdriver and a cute 4 oz ball peen hammer (smallest they had). Started working on Saturday. Got the bike all set up on stands, & clutch cover removed again. Than realized oh crap. The clutch basket nut is on a rotating shaft and I don't have a clutch holding tool. D'oh. Ordered one from amazon.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006O72MW2/ref=sr_ph?ie=UTF8&qid=1405952214&sr=1&keywords=ebc+clutch+tool"]Clutch Tool on Amazon[/ame]
Don't want to rig up something and risk damaging the clutch housing parts. I then realized that the nut is 30 mm and my collection of large sockets skips 30mm going from 27 to 32. Ordered that too. Tools should be here tomorrow (Tuesday), hopefully more to share then.

 

[FinalImpact]

I got that pick set from Sears, a tiny flat precision screwdriver and a cute 4 oz ball peen hammer (smallest they had). Started working on Saturday. Got the bike all set up on stands, & clutch cover removed again. Than realized oh crap. The clutch basket nut is on a rotating shaft and I don't have a clutch holding tool. D'oh. Ordered one from amazon.
Clutch Tool on Amazon
Don't want to rig up something and risk damaging the clutch housing parts. I then realized that the nut is 30 mm and my collection of large sockets skips 30mm going from 27 to 32. Ordered that too. Tools should be here tomorrow (Tuesday), hopefully more to share then.

For the socket, it will be a tad loose but a standard 1-3/16" will do if you have that.
1-3/16" = 1.1875" = 30.163mm

As for the wrench - something like this can be helpful.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As for the wrench - a used steel can have a handle welded to it like so. This has an interior clutch pattern too but thats not needed or helpful.

Actually, your grabbing the inner/center hub("Clutch Boss") with the smaller, inner "cogs" as the nut tightens down on the inner hub.


I've seen homemade tools like that, pretty slick..

 

[kinderwood]

Yeh, holding the inner still is what I need. That's pretty much exactly what the EBC tool is, a steel plate with handle. I live in an apartment complex though. My neighbors already think I'm nuts. My car, a 2002 Mini Cooper S has everything from the bumper to the engine block stripped off at the moment. Had to change oil in the supercharger and replace a leaky radiator. I could only imagine if I started welding in the parking lot, lol.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Your one of "those" types of neighbors?? LOL, JK.

Actually, an air gun would zip that nut off flat quick but you still need the tool should you re-torque it (as you should).

Any excessive play (back and forth) on the clutch itself to speak of?

 

[kinderwood]

My air gun and 20 gallon compressor are in New Jersey at my grandpa's house at the moment. Seems like I leave a wake of car repair detritus where ever I go. I have a 1988 Isuzu Impulse with the engine removed from it up there still....

 

[FinalImpact]

Actually, your grabbing the inner/center hub("Clutch Boss") with the smaller, inner "cogs" as the nut tightens down on the inner hub.


I've seen homemade tools like that, pretty slick..

My bad -

xxx Characters

 

[kinderwood]

$#%@#$#@% tool came and was manufactured wrong. I fixed it.
[youtubevid]kxJmFL54qQA[/youtubevid]

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

$#%@#$#@% tool came and was manufactured wrong. I fixed it.

That's pretty sad. Now we don't have to worry about chinese junk but name brand stuff...

BTW, if you have a drill press, a titanium bit, with lots of cooling water, should punch thru that plate.

Great job thou, getting there...

 

[FinalImpact]

$#%@#$#@% tool came and was manufactured wrong. I fixed it.

So it came with the wrong size bolts? Does it fit the application?

Have you seen the actual damage to any of the gears yet?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So it came with the wrong size bolts? Does it fit the application?

Bolts were the right size, they screwed into the clutch plate fine( apparently that plate is threaded and hardened steel). The actual handle, the holes were too small for the bolts to fit thru

A simple fix but you shouldn't have to fix brand new, name brand tools...

 

[kinderwood]

Diagnosis Part 2 (removing clutch basket):

After I fixed the clutch tool and I went at it. Took some pictures. My cell phone camera is adding a red/purple tint to low light shots, sorry.

First I removed the oil pump chain from the oil pump underneath the engine inside the oil pan. This gives you more slack in the chain for later.

Then I went at the clutch hub nut. Here's a shot showing the (corrected) clutch tool in place along with a 30mm socket.

Next shot shows the nut removed. Not the tab on the lock washer on the bottom left. It was raised up to keep the nut from loosening. It took a small chisel and light hammer taps to flatten out.

Next I removed the inner clutch boss. It takes some grunt to remove, but you can just pull it right off.

Lastly, I made some marks in Sharpie to the gear teeth so I could install it back in the same position. Then you just pull it out slightly, lift the oil pump chain off the backside, get it off the needle bearings, and slowly pull it out. There's not a lot of room to maneuver.

 

[kinderwood]

Diagnosis Part 3 (examining primary crank gears):

Took a look at the crankshaft primary gear today. Youtube vid below.

Summary:

• There is one spot as I rotate the gear that looks markedly different. Three big problem spots. I highlight them in my video.
• Took a look at the transmission input shaft runout. Appears ok.

Still to do:

• Measure crankshaft runout
• Finish cleaning debris from crank gear
• Inspect/clean clutch basket gear
• Measure primary gear teeth using dial gauge?
• Inspect teeth meshing using carbon paper or other method?

Any comments guys?

[youtubevid]l-WvgLS8IO8[/youtubevid]

 

[kinderwood]

Some other thoughts:
That clutch nut is spec'd at 65 ft-lbs according to the FSM. It took WAY more than that to remove. I was using a 2 foot breaker bar on the socket, and used a 2 foot long section of steel box tubing to extend the EBC clutch tool handle. I wrenched the crap out of it and the damn clutch tool bent. I bent it back the best I could in my vise and flipped it over (so the bend was facing the other way). Put it back on the bike and it bent more (passing back through being more or less neutral since I had flipped it). The nut let go just as I thought the handle would snap. This is a single use tool in my opinion, unless I just had an unusually stubborn nut. I would say an air impact wrench is almost a necessity to get these off.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Took a look at the crankshaft primary gear today. Youtube vid below.

Summary:

• There is one spot as I rotate the gear that looks markedly different. Three big problem spots. I highlight them in my video.
• Took a look at the transmission input shaft runout. Appears ok.

Still to do:

• Measure crankshaft runout
• Finish cleaning debris from crank gear
• Inspect/clean clutch basket gear
• Measure primary gear teeth using dial gauge?
• Inspect teeth meshing using carbon paper or other method?

Any comments guys?

[youtubevid]l-WvgLS8IO8[/youtubevid]

Looks like your coming right along. I couldn't get a larger video to play so had to watch the smaller.

Looks like the transmission shaft is good!

And you found the issues on the crank gear. The one I would suggest is some machinists blue die and put them on the teeth (like setting up a ring and pinion gear set in a rear end).

Obviously, what you currently see on the crank gear has to come off. I don't think a wire brush would work anyway. That crank would be hardened steel so some effort to the imbedded aluminum shouldn't hurt anything.

If you have something like that (a hardened gear) around the shop to experiment with different tools/force could help..

How much, if any, aluminum is embedded in the clutch gear itself?

Probably not out of spec's as the transmission shaft survived, but a slow spin on the crankshift, with your dial indicator wouldn't hurt, turn it clockwise (however you have to take the cam chain cover off) which by itself, may make it a little easier for you as you chip away at the crank gear. (The crank gear won't be meshing with anything else)..

Did you happen to notice how much play the oil chain had, just out of curiosity?

 

[FinalImpact]

A couple of observations:

Trans Input Shaft:
Although it has threads, you really want to get is far out on the shaft as you can for taking measurements. If no deflection is detected there, I'm sure your golden. Hint; if the dial mount is stable enough, it may mean you lift the measuring tip onto each spline and verify all hold the same value.

Clutch Hub:
What can be seen in terms of transfer material or displacement on those teeth? Point; IF a bulk of the damage or cleanup is isolated to a replaceable gear set, replace it!

The last incident like this you could hear the noise output cut in half by replacing the clutch hub gear. It reduced the cycles of occurrence.

Mesh area:
With the cam attached it will be hard to get a totally clean reading but carbon paper or Pursain Blue could help you see what the tolerance can look like when the undamaged area is observed.

I recall old school days that some fed NEWS PAPER through straight cut gear to find trouble spots... Keep that in mind too.

Thoughts here are this: if the gear tips at the outer edge have been deflected/displaec, there may not be any hope of making it as quiet as it was. If you simply need to remove transfer material, a hard backed emery board (think of a womans nail file) could help. The key is being so diligent as to NOT remove the good area that is OK. Like I mentioned before, I'd had two occasions where use of an Xacto Chisel blade was able to peel away transfer material leaving the next step of polishing and done. Granted this was bearing surface and not the rough ground edge of gear.

That's what comes to mind as of this moment.....