Engine Clacking Noise - Cracked Clutch Damage

[kinderwood]

NOTE: I'm updating this thread and getting the broken pictures working again. Standby.

This thread details my diagnosis and repair of a cracked clutch plate and the damage it caused. The pieces got munched by the primary gear between the crankshaft and clutch basket. It produced a sound similar to the recording in this thread:
GARGOYLES in my 6!!

What Happened?:
I was starting gradually from a stop while on a STEEP incline. The bike was loaded up with me, my wife and empty Givi hardbags (approx 300 lbs). I heard a loud cracking while easing the clutch and throttling up. After the cracking sound I didn't hear or feel anything else unusual. So I gently continued on my way. About 1 mile later the engine suddenly developed the noise in the video linked above. Limped 1 more mile back home keeping it under 20 mph and riding as gently as possible. Bike performed ok, just made a racket of a noise. The engine makes a constant loud clacking noise which follows RPM not wheel speed. See the video below for a noise that sounds identical to mine (just after 3m:20s):
YouTube

My diagnosis so far:
Cam chain did not jump a tooth. I used a stethoscope around the engine and narrowed the noise down to the clutch area. Opened the clutch and found it was cracked. The friction plate closest to the transmission was cracked into multiple pieces. The pieces were pretty big and were still held in the clutch basket except for one small section of the ring that was missing. Dropped the oil pan and found small debris from the clutch plate. I visually inspected the gears on the crankshaft and clutch basket. They appear to have aluminum fused into them from the clutch plate. Yamaha used cast aluminum for the friction plates which is softer than the crank and clutch materials.

So what next?:
I believe the noise is gear interference caused by the clutch plate material fused in the primary gears on the crankshaft and clutch basket. This would have happened when the clutch piece ran through the gears. I tried removing the material by scraping but it was not possible for me to restore the gears. The tolerances are quite small. I pulled the engine and am currently in the process of replacing the crankshaft and clutch basket.

Important Replies:
Diagnosis Part 1 (clutch debris in oil pan)
Diagnosis Part 2 (removing clutch basket)
Diagnosis Part 3 (examining primary crank gears)

Repair Part 1 (crankcase split, new crank installed)
Repair Part 2 (crankcase mated)
Repair Part 3 (generator & clutch installed)

 

[FinalImpact]

[MENTION=2355]kinderwood[/MENTION]

First off, sorry to hear that! So, for not having any mechanical skills, it sounds like you have solved the mystery. So now its down to fixing the actual problem.

Do you have an FSM? If not, they can be had as electronic pdf and you need one. The issue is this: how bad is it and can it be fixed.

If we were to chop through that post and pic out the steps you need to do fix your issue I suspect it may go something like this:

Confirm the problem:
Verify damage to gear set.
Remove the spark plugs and the timing plug to the crank shaft.
Grab some MAF cleaner and spray the gear set until there is NO oil present.
Look and listen for the interference spots. Mind you, because the gears have different tooth counts the two damaged sections will only align every so often. I think its roughly 2:1 44/86 comes to mind.

Remove the clutch basket and you should be able to inspect both gear sets much easier. The basket can be replaced. The crank is now up for debate as to how to address the problem. But first you need an accurate way to detect what the problem is.

I would be looking for a dial indicator and then you can drop it on every tooth and measure the tooth's height in relation to the last on. You need to detect if its:
"HIGH" = material added
"LOW" = material compressed, tooth bent.

Once this is determined, now we discuss options to repair or replace.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 ^^^ on the above...

Just curious, how many miles on the bike? Was the clutch run hard often(super hard launches, etc). Have you owned the bike for quite awhile or is it fairly new to you?

Pm sent as well..

 

[kinderwood]

+1 ^^^ on the above...

Just curious, how many miles on the bike? Was the clutch run hard often(super hard launches, etc). Have you owned the bike for quite awhile or is it fairly new to you?

Pm sent as well..

Right, forgot that info.

• I am the original owner, never ridden by anyone except myself.
• There's about 21k miles on the bike.
• The bike has never been tracked or been to a drag strip (though I have been meaning to do both).

Usually I cruise around like a sane human being and am pretty gentle with the clutch and throttle. Sometimes my vision goes red and I get the urge for speed though and accelerate harder. I have done a few harder launches to the point where the weight lifts off the front wheel and barely leaves the ground. I think I could count the number of times I've done that on my hands over the 21k miles though. No actual wheelies or anything.

 

[kinderwood]

[MENTION=2355]kinderwood[/MENTION]

First off, sorry to hear that! So, for not having any mechanical skills, it sounds like you have solved the mystery. So now its down to fixing the actual problem.

Do you have an FSM? If not, they can be had as electronic pdf and you need one. The issue is this: how bad is it and can it be fixed.

If we were to chop through that post and pic out the steps you need to do fix your issue I suspect it may go something like this:

Confirm the problem:
Verify damage to gear set.
Remove the spark plugs and the timing plug to the crank shaft.
Grab some MAF cleaner and spray the gear set until there is NO oil present.
Look and listen for the interference spots. Mind you, because the gears have different tooth counts the two damaged sections will only align every so often. I think its roughly 2:1 44/86 comes to mind.

Remove the clutch basket and you should be able to inspect both gear sets much easier. The basket can be replaced. The crank is now up for debate as to how to address the problem. But first you need an accurate way to detect what the problem is.

I would be looking for a dial indicator and then you can drop it on every tooth and measure the tooth's height in relation to the last on. You need to detect if its:
"HIGH" = material added
"LOW" = material compressed, tooth bent.

Once this is determined, now we discuss options to repair or replace.

So I do have some mechanical knowledge and lots of wrench time on my own vehicles, just no actual experience with engine guts. I have the FSM in electronic and print form. Also the Haynes manual.

I am also in the middle of setting up a simple home machine shop. So I have a small vertical milling machine and some of the accouterments to go with it. Including a test indicator (a Starrett Last Word). I don't have a mag base for it though. I know the basics of machining, but I don't pretend to be any kind of expert. I am completely lacking a lathe, but have access to one at work (and the machinist).

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Right, forgot that info.

• I am the original owner, never ridden by anyone except myself.
• There's about 21k miles on the bike.
• The bike has never been tracked or been to a drag strip (though I have been meaning to do both).

Usually I cruise around like a sane human being and am pretty gentle with the clutch and throttle. Sometimes my vision goes red and I get the urge for speed though and accelerate harder. I have done a few harder launches to the point where the weight lifts off the front wheel and barely leaves the ground. I think I could count the number of times I've done that on my hands over the 21k miles though. No actual wheelies or anything.

Thats about how I ride, kinda surprised it let lose under those conditions. It usually takes some serious abuse to blow up.

As shown in the other thread, start gently picking at any imbeded clutch particles in those gears. I'd probably use a slim, fairly long screw driver and take some sharp shots (at an angle) at the debris to loosen it/remove it. I'd also, put a nice clean rag ALL AROUND where your working so that crap doesn't go any deeper.

As Randy mentioned above , once all "parts" are removed, a dial indicator, set at 90 degress to each shaft to check for trueness to both the crank and transmission input shaft/ cluctch basket is critical.

Just to be positive, the local, private owned shop I buy tires from(known the owner literally for decades), they had an R6 with a blown clutch distributed thru out the engine. They pulled the engine, did NOT fully dissassemble (owner couldn't afford it) as parts of the clutch actually jambed up / lodged in the gears thru out the engine(wouldn't spin over). The mechanic was literally picking parts out.

Once your visable parts are removed, and hopefully the shafts are straight, look real hard upwards in towards the transmission, perhaps sprap a bunch of brake cleaner, blow some air (air compressor) should the be any particles stuck way up.

Good luck and please post your progress..

 

[kinderwood]

So the actions FinalImpact posted are going to be my first steps. A few questions though.

1st question:
By MAF cleaner you mean mass airflow sensor cleaner? Like this?
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/CRC-05110-Mass-Sensor-Cleaner/dp/B000J19XSA"]Amazon.com: CRC 05110 Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner - 11 Wt Oz.: Automotive[/ame]
So after spraying the parts down with that MAF cleaner, what kind of precautions would I have to take to prevent oxidation and rusting? How long can they sit out after having the oil stripped off and what would be the best way to reapply a protective coating if necessary?

2nd question:
Regarding measuring the teeth. Would I be using the dial to try and measure the "peak" of the tooth or the "valley" of the tooth?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So I do have some mechanical knowledge and lots of wrench time on my own vehicles, just no actual experience with engine guts. I have the FSM in electronic and print form. Also the Haynes manual.

I am also in the middle of setting up a simple home machine shop. So I have a small vertical milling machine and some of the accouterments to go with it. Including a test indicator (a Starrett Last Word). I don't have a mag base for it though. I know the basics of machining, but I don't pretend to be any kind of expert. I am completely lacking a lathe, but have access to one at work (and the machinist).

The dial indicator is about the only thing you'll likely need (besides basic tools). If the crank or trans shaft is bent, to my knowledge, its a matter of replacement. I suppose there may be someone out there that could straighten it, but, I haven't heard of any reference to that option. I have a small metal lathe, but again, it really won't be helpful as your dial indicator will tell all...

 

[kinderwood]

Yeh, I'm kinda disappointed that it cracked this early and under what I don't think to be especially harsh riding. Always used good moto oil and changed at reasonable time (Rotella T early on, Mobile 1 once, and now Motul 7100).

For rags that I'll be stuffing in the engine, should I be getting lint free ones? I only have disposable blue shop towels at the moment, need to get some cloth ones.

I'll try and get my indicator on those shafts as well.

 

[kinderwood]

The dial indicator is about the only thing you'll likely need (besides basic tools). If the crank or trans shaft is bent, to my knowledge, its a matter of replacement. I suppose there may be someone out there that could straighten it, but, I haven't heard of any reference to that option. I have a small metal lathe, but again, it really won't be helpful as your dial indicator will tell all...

For an engine that runs with this much power in that small of a package at 14k RPMS, I'd rather replace than re-machine. If I can get it ok by cleaning the teeth I'll take that too.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So the actions FinalImpact posted are going to be my first steps. A few questions though.

1st question:
By MAF cleaner you mean mass airflow sensor cleaner? Like this?
Amazon.com: CRC 05110 Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner - 11 Wt Oz.: Automotive
So after spraying the parts down with that MAF cleaner, what kind of precautions would I have to take to prevent oxidation and rusting? How long can they sit out after having the oil stripped off and what would be the best way to reapply a protective coating if necessary?

2nd question:
Regarding measuring the teeth. Would I be using the dial to try and measure the "peak" of the tooth or the "valley" of the tooth?

Just getting the area clean of oil will be fine. Brake cleaner will work fine and not leave a residue. A light coat of WD 40, to prevent rust would be fine.

IMO, get that crap out first, with a minimum of turning (and potentially making things worse). Once cleaned out, a dial gauge set at 90 degrees to the shaft your measuring will show if it wobbling back and forth.

 

[kinderwood]

Great advice all around, thanks guys.

Scott,
I saw you had mentioned that R6 in warrencycle's thread. Which reminds me of another question I had. Should I be cleaning oil passages to make sure they're clear? If so, how would I find them all? Is cleaning all of them necessary or just the ones towards the bottom of the engine.

 

[kinderwood]

Another question. Is there any reason to keep the engine in the frame at this point? I really can't get at the gears from the ground while it's in the frame. I kinda want to pull the engine and flip it over.

 

[FinalImpact]

No reason to take it out yet.
- MAF or brake cleaner, both work. WD to protect.
- Seeings its an aluminum block, mag base not much help. A strap of tin, shim stock, or aluminum, cut to a long rectangle and bolt it to an existing hole (cover ect) then bend it to location. Aluminum of 0.050 to 0.080 may be strong enough. Drill some holes in it and bolt the DI to it.

As for the clutch drum:
Find the damage to confirm it ate clutch.
TWO THOUGHTS HERE and both use the same principal. Measure and rotate. So start on the outside of the clutch drum and confirm its true. Then remove the clutch drum and measure directly on the transmission input shaft.

Place a dial indicator 90° to the drum/shaft and from 0° take a reading, turn it 90°, take a reading, turn another 90° etc and its ok to do so from the shaft splines. Just do the same for all of them.

- next order of business: THIS IS ONLY IF THE DAMAGE IS NOT VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE....
- Two lines of detection on the crankshaft:
1) is the cranks drive gear concentric. i.e. if I measure the OUTSIDE of the teeth in 8 locations (although 4 would do), is the crank true? If yes, on to step two!
2) If the outside of the gear true now we need to look at the teeth FACE that contact the Clutch drum. The teeth may be fine on the outside but either be bent, distorted, or have material embedded. And it may be local to say 45% of two teeth contact areas.

I think #2 is most likely. The crank is stout and not likely to bend. Plus its more likely that the clutches soft aluminum fused to the gear under pressure. Hopefully this can be removed and you're home free. That's what we'll need the DI for.

** IF ** you actually end up using DI to determine crankshaft teeth damage, you need a positive stop on the crank. Like a piece of steel on a pivot with a robust edge. Think of ratchet stop, you need to turn the crank one tooth, drop the stop in, and measure the face of the defect. Repeatability is important.

That's how I'd go about it. Personally if I found embedded aluminum on the cranks drive gear I'd use a new Exacto chisel blade to see if it can be lifted off.

 

[FinalImpact]

Also - if you end up turning the engine repeatedly, use a syringe and a hose to drop some oil in the removed spark plug holes.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Another question. Is there any reason to keep the engine in the frame at this point? I really can't get at the gears from the ground while it's in the frame. I kinda want to pull the engine and flip it over.

Agreed with Randy, no need to pull it at this point. Get clean what you know has aluminum imbedded on it clean and do you measurements.

Besides your oil filter, there is a screen for the oil pick up (you should be able to see now with the pan off) and you've already recovered most, if not all of the plate.

The R6 mentioned earlier, blew up on a high RPM, drop clutch, haul A$$ run (always run extremly run hard) and the parts literally locked up the transmission by getting large debris jambed inbetween gears... Yours was still running so nothing big got jambed up locking up the engine.

Just to add to Randy's post with the DI. Just scroung up a small piece of steel angle iron, or bend some flat steel. Drill ONE 1/4 hole in it. It'll now bolt to any metric, M6, threaded hole(that's the size that holds the clutch cover on, (use one of those bolts with the bracket). You can now use your magnetic base of the dial indicator to stick to that..

 

[kinderwood]

Diagnosis Part 1 (clutch debris in oil pan):
Took a vid showing the clutch and what led me to my conclusion of the parts going through the gears. Please excuse the potato quality camera and my poor narration skills.
[youtubevid]SwAa6p8rM00[/youtubevid]

Attached are the stills of the pieces I had in the video.

 

[FinalImpact]

First part of my diagnosis (remains of clutch):
Took a vid showing the clutch and what led me to my conclusion of the parts going through the gears. Please excuse the potato quality camera and my poor narration skills.
[youtubevid]SwAa6p8rM00[/youtubevid]

Attached are the stills of the pieces I had in the video.

Agreed - looks like it went through the crusher....

That's very unfortunate! Hang in there and we'll figure it out!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 on both posts^^^. I suspect the big piece your missing is all those little ones, just been thru the grater and rolled, as stated in the valley of the meshing teeth.

Is there aluminum/parts embedded into the crank or clutch gears?

BTW, very good video, and your a lot handier with a wrench than you give credit for...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Great advice all around, thanks guys.

Scott,
I saw you had mentioned that R6 in warrencycle's thread. Which reminds me of another question I had. Should I be cleaning oil passages to make sure they're clear? If so, how would I find them all? Is cleaning all of them necessary or just the ones towards the bottom of the engine.

Once you get that far it probably won't be needed BUT, I would look at the oiling system in the FSM.

Follow the oil flow and perhaps put air pressure to it (you'd have to decide where), just so, IF there's crap, it flushed down and out (preferably to the pan) vs pushed farther up into the crankshaft/valves etc.

I believe there's an oil passage thu the main transmission clutch shaft and obviously the crankshaft.

Also, if not known, the oil pump runs off a chain at the rear of the clutch basket itself, farther down(the water pump runs off that). Point being, I wouldn't crank up the engine without the basket and chain connected to the pump...