R6 Cams

[FinalImpact]

Excellent! You're happy right? Thanks for sharing.

If you don't mind can we do a little recap? Was your fuel curve left alone on these runs? Where is the Torque curve?

Bike is S1 chassis w/R6 cams
DJ PC - map work in progress
DeCAT, AIS plates, CANs - What Flavor?
Stock gearing and still a 530 chain or ???
Anything else?

If you don't mind sharing the tune map you ran here, I'd like to see the offsets now that someone has posted an S1 AFR. Also, if they ran the pulls in say 4th gear you might want to compare your 4th gear map to the others. On that note; this is from a couple months ago and I don't know that DJ values directly relate to Bazzaz values - but what I'm seeing is for every +/-1.0:1 change in AFR, it equates to +/-10 points on the offset table.
Lets say you want 13.5:1 AFR, and you measure 12.5:1 at say 6000RPM @50% TPS the offset for that cell would be -10 to whatever the existing value is. If desired was 13.5 and measured was 12.2 that same cell value would be -13 to the existing value. This is from a wideband sensor inserted past the collector on an S1 header to an S2 chassis. Most but not all of the map is headed towards a Target AFR of 13.25:1

 

[ChanceCoats123]

That flat spot looks like it could be at the very least decreased in magnitude. The fuel map was super rich right in that range and I'd bet money it would be much linear from 6-7k if you leaned it out just a tad. :thumbup:

Thanks for posting the results! Crazy to think there might just be a 100rwhp FZ6 on the prowl!

 

[FinalImpact]

This is all making perfect sense now!

CAMS = MUSIC TO OP's EARS!!!! ------>>> HERE! vv Blah

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Ok so lets recap, I'll list all the mods to the bike:

2006 FZ6 with 5SL R6 cams timed up using the standard timing marks on the R6 sprockets.

Powercomander 3 USB with quickshifter and custom map (not for the cams yet) making 95hp on FZ6 cams according to the print out I got with the bike.

Old style scorpion exhausts no baffles.

K&N filter

De-cat.

AIS removal.

Stock gearing - stock chain.

4th or 5th gear run, think it was 5th.

I'm going to go and download the map now that's on the bike and have a play. However you've made me question whether I need to make the numbers bigger or smaller in the table. I was under the impression that the numbers in the table are with relation to the base values stored on the ECU - ie +10 meant +10% more fuel than stock etc.

Looking at the table I think the bike wants to be slightly leaner than the target red line (which is 13.2:1). If you look at the power delivery at say 10k it seems to follow the AFR trace and visually looks better where it is slightly leaner, than 9k where it is rich.

Also did notice as well it's quite rich at 6.5k where the flat spot is so will lean that out and see if it makes a difference and hoping it will at leat make it rideable through there.

I'd say I'm very happy with the results, especially knowing there is more to go once mapped.

I'm going to go and have a look now!

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Keep us informed. I'd love to see the final map!

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm sure you are fine as you were. The confusion is knowing the base values of the OEM Fuel MAP because its none linear and does not stay at "one ratio" for all conditions.
That is, it can be lean @15.0:1 in some conditions and very rich @12.0:1 in others. If we knew its exact curve we could address our offsets to obtain the values we desire from our fuel controller. Nothing we didn't know.

From the OEM ECU MAP any fuel added to it by our Controller is "+" and anything taken away is "-" some value.

If a given point measures 15:1 and we want 13:1, and that cell value is 0, then we add fuel (+XX). In my case it would be +20 for that cell (condition). And if the F/C MAP CELL already contained -10, we simply add -10+20 = +10 to that cell. Makes sense right?

THANKS for Sharing Everything! Very Much Appreciated! :thumbup:

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Ok so I've had a play.

Basically taken out 10% at 6500, and 5% at 6250 and 6750 to try and tackle the flat spot.

Taken out 5% at 2500 and 2750 as I know its rich here from riding. Taken out 10% at 3250.

Added 5% to all the values from 9500 upwards (to be safe for now, better to run a tad rich here than lean)

 

[0l0dom0l0]

And here are the maps.

 

[FinalImpact]

Ok so I've had a play.

Basically taken out 10% at 6500, and 5% at 6250 and 6750 to try and tackle the flat spot.

Taken out 5% at 2500 and 2750 as I know its rich here from riding. Taken out 10% at 3250.

Added 5% to all the values from 9500 upwards (to be safe for now, better to run a tad rich here than lean)

Its not safe to assume we can compare fueling with different mods applied but, at a glance the fueling needs for your S1 at 6500 and my S2 at 6500 are very different. I'm adding fuel from 50% TPS to get into the 12's and by your map, your taking it away! Very interesting!

BUT - I must say, I don't know that Bazzaz values = DJ values. :don'tknow: Too bad your first run didn't have the AFR. It would be nice to know if that same dip occurred in those same places!

Your DJ map of that area...

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Its not safe to assume we can compare fueling with different mods applied but, at a glance the fueling needs for your S1 at 6500 and my S2 at 6500 are very different. I'm adding fuel from 50% TPS to get into the 12's and by your map, your taking it away! Very interesting!

I'm struggling to understand it as well.

To be honest it looks like I'd have been better removing the map all together and starting from scratch but never mind.

I downloaded a couple of the pre made ones from gh the power commander site and the ones I looked at were all adding fuel! Not taking it away.

Strange.

Either way as I've got it done on this map until it gets fully mapped I'll keep it as I know it's safe.

Hoping that flat spot goes or is better with the changes.

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm struggling to understand it as well.

To be honest it looks like I'd have been better removing the map all together and starting from scratch but never mind.

I downloaded a couple of the pre made ones from gh the power commander site and the ones I looked at were all adding fuel! Not taking it away.

Strange.

Either way as I've got it done on this map until it gets fully mapped I'll keep it as I know it's safe.

Hoping that flat spot goes or is better with the changes.

That's exactly what I'm learning (start at zero). The makers of the Bazzaz swear its more accurate at reading AFR and I get repeatable values now (but didn't initially). So i started with fat maps and am wasting rides dialing them in.
FWIW: what looks good on dyno and what rides nice can be two different things.

 

[Hellgate]

That's why I like a steady state tune with a 4Gas vs. a sweep test with an O2. The steady state almost always yields a correct tune. Sweep is most usually way too fat.

Of the five bikes I've dyno tuned; FZ6, Buell 1125R, FZ1, R6, and the XV920R, four of them had fuel removed - overall. Typically fuel is only needed where EPA testing is done. The XV920R was a totally different case as the displacement, cams, compression, porting, air box and exhaust was all changed at once. There I went up two main jets, shimmed the needle 1mm and opened the pilot screws up one turn.

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Interesting Hellgate, so are you saying the map I uploaded is more like what you would expect to see?

I've also got my eye on these:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=351057342927&alt=web

Reason being, it would be really easy to make a link pipe that would fit for the FZ6 and they are akrapovic as well.

I wonder if that would give another 5 ponies once tuned in.....

 

[ozgurakman]

what about funny sounds from engine, did they disappeared? or did you fixed?

congrats, 100whp is so fine result.

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Put it down to the airbox and the monster sound it makes when opening the throttle.

 

[FinalImpact]

That's why I like a steady state tune with a 4Gas vs. a sweep test with an O2. The steady state almost always yields a correct tune. Sweep is most usually way too fat.

Of the five bikes I've dyno tuned; FZ6, Buell 1125R, FZ1, R6, and the XV920R, four of them had fuel removed - overall. Typically fuel is only needed where EPA testing is done. The XV920R was a totally different case as the displacement, cams, compression, porting, air box and exhaust was all changed at once. There I went up two main jets, shimmed the needle 1mm and opened the pilot screws up one turn.

Any of them have anything done with the ignition to timing and valve timing to reach full potential of the basic setup? I'm not saying a port job or giant tube headers, just taking full potential of the basic setup.

Everyone is getting to see what ignition timing does on these bikes with mode select switches. Of course they are also Throttle by Wire and the ECU is taking control of the throttle plate angles as well, but don't underestimate what ignition timing is doing here. Which can take the engines response and mute it down OR can wake it up.

 

[0l0dom0l0]

I dug out the original dyno run I had a copy of:



I guess in comparison it's a bit fairer to compare the blue line which is the 'before' to the runs that I got done, because obviously it hasn't been mapped yet and I suspect it'll pick up a similar amount to before.

I'm also a little annoyed I don't have copies of the torque and that the operator didn't run the bike to the limiter as now I've added the extra fuel above 9500 it screams past 12k and I don't have an AFR trace past here. So basically what I'm saying is that it may not havve pulled up there too well before because it was too lean, now it's getting more fuel it might run there, but still be lean.

I'm not usually one to pussy out but keeping this pinned now I've added the extra fuel is very very hairy.

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Also done a very crude comparison here just pulling numbers off the chart as I can't compare the before and afters on the same table.

But I make it (un-mapped on FZ6 cams)

RPM FZ6 CAMS R6 CAMS

3500 - 20 vs 20
4000 - 25 vs 25
4500 - 27 vs 27
5000 - 32 vs 32
5500 - 35 vs 32
6000 - 37 vs 35
6500 - 50 vs 32
7000 - 55 vs 45
7500 - 60 vs 55
8000 - 60 vs 60
8500 - 65 vs 65
9000 - 70 vs 68
9500 - 80 vs 80
10000 - 81 vs 85
10500 - 82 vs 90
11000 - 85 vs 93
11500 - 88 vs 95
12000 - 86 vs 100
12500 - 82 vs 92

So pretty much what I said from my butt dyno. The flat spot in the midrange between 6k and 8k is killing the r6 cams compared to the FZ6 ones but the real low end stuff is almost identical. The high end stuff the R6 cams take control and if the operator had actually run it to the limiter we'd probably see the r6 cams hold the power up until the limiter at the top end as it certainly doens't drop off like the FZ6 cams do.

Without that dip I'd probably say the R6 cams give a nicer smoother delivery overall but the dip does spoil it a bit.

I wonder how much will come out with a tune, don't know yet.

 

[FinalImpact]

Thanks for sharing that. When you say very hairy, as in nose coming up? I find it interesting that as the road gets rougher it tends to do this when rippin on it... lol Now if it didnt weigh 450 that would help too!
FWIW: The rev limiter is on just a hair over 13,500 so i doubt you missed anything there. Id rather have that than some Ahole that tachs it out for 6seconds at every shift through all the gears on dyno (no quick shift).
Also, from your fuel map, i wouldn't hesitate to add at 80%TPS to help that transition.

We need to know if the DJ and Bazzaz values do the same thing. i.e. 10counts = 1.0:1 whole AFR step...

 

[Hellgate]

Any of them have anything done with the ignition to timing and valve timing to reach full potential of the basic setup? I'm not saying a port job or giant tube headers, just taking full potential of the basic setup.

Everyone is getting to see what ignition timing does on these bikes with mode select switches. Of course they are also Throttle by Wire and the ECU is taking control of the throttle plate angles as well, but don't underestimate what ignition timing is doing here. Which can take the engines response and mute it down OR can wake it up.

Yes and no.

1) The FZ6 was stock except for a PC3 & Akra slip on.

2) The Buell 1125R was dyno'd three times. Once stock with a PCV, then a full exhaust with PCV, then a custom exhaust and PCV.

3) The FZ1 was done three times, Akra slip on and PCV, Akra and Flash, then Akra, Flash and PCV. The flash changes timing, removes restrictions, etc.

4) The R6 is a former AMA Super Stock bike, too many mods to list. Yamaha KIT ECU, timed cams, milled head, tuned FI injectors, full Arrow Ti exhaust, all parts matched, balanced and blueprinted, and PC3. It's a bloody fast bike at less than 350 pounds.

Again overall fuel was removed except for the 0 TPS position 5 points added (helps with maintenance throttle in a turn, less snatch), the 20% TPS range, and way up high at 90%+ throttle up to 15,000 rpm. But the additional fuel was only a few points, 3 to 5. At 20% it was more in the 15 to 18 points range, IIRC. It's been awhile since I've looked at the specific map.

5) And the XV920R, 1100cc kit, high comp pistons, porting, cams, full exhaust, de-snokeled airbox. That was enriched across the whole jetting spectrum.

In general, "lean is mean" relative to the given motor.