R6 Cams

[0l0dom0l0]

would it then also be possible to just put R6 TBs on the FZ without a head swap. just to get rid of the fuel cut choppiness? that would be a worthwhile mod if it doesnt need a re-map and such. i dont feel like losing gas mileage (and $500) over 2-3hp.

You can't run the R6 throttle bodies without the head no. You need a cam position sensor which the FZ6 doesn't have among other things.

The choppy throttle is best gotten rid with a power commander, second hand ones are cheap enough these days.

 

[fazil]

You can't run the R6 throttle bodies without the head no. You need a cam position sensor which the FZ6 doesn't have among other things.

And probably a R6 ecu also.

 

[Marthy]

would it then also be possible to just put R6 TBs on the FZ without a head swap. just to get rid of the fuel cut choppiness? that would be a worthwhile mod if it doesnt need a re-map and such. i dont feel like losing gas mileage (and $500) over 2-3hp.

That would most than likely kill the mid range throttle response. Just do the cams and PCV with a solid tune. A good decat exhaust might not be a bad idea either. Smaller TB will give you a better punch at mid range... where you will improve the most. Absolutely no need to go bigger if you are not revving higher. Max inlet air speed (+/- 70% of speed of sound) won't go any faster if you don't rev faster...

So spend time and $$$ where it matter the most. Swap cams, adjust valves if needed and time them to 102/105 to start (as it might be the better numbers) Get a PCV or PCIII and get it tuned! Then ride... :rockon:

 

[aclayonb]

I might be a bit of a Debbie-downer here but 3-5 hp gains for all of this @$$-pain seems a bit much. I understand the tinkering factor, but for the proposed gains.... ???

For all the time, headache, tinkering, tuning, flea-bay shopping, and waiting for parts, I'd just buy a new bike.

Then again, I already did the tinkering, tuning, screwing with, cussing at, kicking, choking, yanking, stabbing, and finally the selling of a bike that was NEVER going to be what I wanted no matter what cams, exhaust, carbs, jets, handlebars, shocks, clutch plates, tires, lithium ion batteries, and brakes I put on it.

Factor in the time spent shopping and tweaking, even cheaply, at... say.... $20 per hour, and you'll soon be in range of buying a different bike (or another bike).

 

[0l0dom0l0]

I might be a bit of a Debbie-downer here but 3-5 hp gains for all of this @$$-pain seems a bit much. I understand the tinkering factor, but for the proposed gains.... ???

For all the time, headache, tinkering, tuning, flea-bay shopping, and waiting for parts, I'd just buy a new bike.

Then again, I already did the tinkering, tuning, screwing with, cussing at, kicking, choking, yanking, stabbing, and finally the selling of a bike that was NEVER going to be what I wanted no matter what cams, exhaust, carbs, jets, handlebars, shocks, clutch plates, tires, lithium ion batteries, and brakes I put on it.

Factor in the time spent shopping and tweaking, even cheaply, at... say.... $20 per hour, and you'll soon be in range of buying a different bike (or another bike).

It's £50 for the new cams, what's the big deal?

If I get it custom mapped as well it might cost me £200 to do the mod. People have spent more than than on levers for their bike?

I didn't install the exhaust, power commander commander or get it mapped, that was already on the bike when I bought it.

I think £200 for 5-10 hp is a bargain to be hones!

 

[SweaterDude]

That would most than likely kill the mid range throttle response. Just do the cams and PCV with a solid tune. A good decat exhaust might not be a bad idea either. Smaller TB will give you a better punch at mid range... where you will improve the most. Absolutely no need to go bigger if you are not revving higher. Max inlet air speed (+/- 70% of speed of sound) won't go any faster if you don't rev faster...

So spend time and $$$ where it matter the most. Swap cams, adjust valves if needed and time them to 102/105 to start (as it might be the better numbers) Get a PCV or PCIII and get it tuned! Then ride... :rockon:

thats what i dont want. i dont want to buy all the crap, re-map, etc. thats why my bike gets 50-55mpg even when i ride spirited. i dont feel the need to eek out a little power at the expense of 10mpg. i could have a bigger bike and get a LOT MORE power at the expense of 10mpg. however increasing the ability for more fuel and unlocking the high end of the RPM range would allow for more power when you want it, and keeping fuel figures when you dont. usually the PC unit messes all that up with the re-map. and before you ask, yes i get all the cam stuff and the fuel/air balance crap, valves, etc. but all of that affects reliability. the FZ is NOT a race bike, its no speed demon.

 

[Crashz28]

My 2013 ZX6R gets 47mpg even with a night at the dragstrip and half a dozen passes!

On my bike I needed a new motor so I swapped in the R6 motor as one everyone said it could not be done and 2 they were cheaper and more plentiful than the FZ6 motor 3 I love to tinker and build stuff!

So I get the joy of doing something nobody thought possible I get to tinker and I saved money!

Do I think just the cam swap is worth it no kinda need to do the whole package to get the most worthwhile gains!

I think the R6 throttle bodies will give the best response as they have CV slides in them the FZ6 are just straight blade throttle bodies when you crack open the throttle they open that and they are group fired!

 

[iviyth0s]

thats what i dont want. i dont want to buy all the crap, re-map, etc. thats why my bike gets 50-55mpg even when i ride spirited. i dont feel the need to eek out a little power at the expense of 10mpg. i could have a bigger bike and get a LOT MORE power at the expense of 10mpg. however increasing the ability for more fuel and unlocking the high end of the RPM range would allow for more power when you want it, and keeping fuel figures when you dont. usually the PC unit messes all that up with the re-map. and before you ask, yes i get all the cam stuff and the fuel/air balance crap, valves, etc. but all of that affects reliability. the FZ is NOT a race bike, its no speed demon.

How are you getting mileage that hi?? Is your odometer really optimistic?? I get 48-50MPG and that's with the factory inaccuracy so it's probably a little under that realistically. I've tested cruising at 6K tops then 7K tops and got better mileage at 7K and am now doing an 8K top rpm cruise to see what I get.

 

[Crashz28]

How are you getting mileage that hi?? Is your odometer really optimistic?? I get 48-50MPG and that's with the factory inaccuracy so it's probably a little under that realistically. I've tested cruising at 6K tops then 7K tops and got better mileage at 7K and am now doing an 8K top rpm cruise to see what I get.

My 05 FZ6 with a stock gearing but 520 conversion consistently got low 50mpgs with a 50/50 mix of city and freeway!

The 06 FZ6 that blew the motor got 50mpg consistently all stock including chain but I also now live in the very back of a neighborhood with many stop signs!

My 2013 ZX6R gets mid 47 in the same conditions as my 06 FZ6 and low 50mpgs on the freeway on longer distance trips!

I think the best I ever got on the FZ6 was low 60mpg

From the research I did back in 05 the odometer was pretty accurite the speedo itself was optimistic but the actual odometer was almost dead on odd but it is what it is!

 

[0l0dom0l0]

before you ask, yes i get all the cam stuff and the fuel/air balance crap, valves, etc. but all of that affects reliability. the FZ is NOT a race bike, its no speed demon.

Installing a power commander will not affect you reliability in any way. That's a ridiculous statement. I get 45 mpg all day long on my FZ6 with all the mods that are on it so far. . It would seem these bikes aren't the best for fuel economy.
.
Also, doing the cam swap won't affect reliability if done properly. The bottom End of the engine is made from R6 parts. The pistons, crank , rods, rings all share the same part numbers with the R6. A small 10 hp gain isn't going to affect reliability either.

Failures on engines these days are usually down to lack of care rather than a component failure. And if one does fail it's because of the former.

I've done 8k miles on my FZ6, most of which have been flat out. including 6 track days. It still runs like the day I got it, but that's because I warm it gently and do regular oil changes.

I think the R6 throttle bodies will give the best response as they have CV slides in them the FZ6 are just straight blade throttle bodies when you crack open the throttle they open that and they are group fired!

it would probably help with the 'lazy' feeling of the fuel injection on the FZ6 yyes and with the r6 head and cams would unleach most of the r6 ponies tbat are available but for the hassle and everything to swap it all over, it really isn't worth it. You might as well buy and R6 if you're going to spend that kinda money on it.

On a different note you ddo realise tthey went back to group injection (same as the FZ6)on the later model R6 don't you? so it can't be that bad!

 

[Marthy]

thats what i dont want. i dont want to buy all the crap, re-map, etc. thats why my bike gets 50-55mpg even when i ride spirited. i dont feel the need to eek out a little power at the expense of 10mpg. i could have a bigger bike and get a LOT MORE power at the expense of 10mpg. however increasing the ability for more fuel and unlocking the high end of the RPM range would allow for more power when you want it, and keeping fuel figures when you dont. usually the PC unit messes all that up with the re-map. and before you ask, yes i get all the cam stuff and the fuel/air balance crap, valves, etc. but all of that affects reliability. the FZ is NOT a race bike, its no speed demon.

It all come down to a matter of taste and personalizing your bike. I went down from 50 to 48 MPG with the exhaust then to 45 MPG with the cams. 15 miles per tank is not a deal breaker to me. If MPG was why I bought my bikes i would be riding a scooter that can pound 80+ MPG all day long. LOL

Sometime I wonder why people spend $$$ on stickers and flashy lights... matter of taste. Not my thing but its just fine.

 

[iviyth0s]

My 05 FZ6 with a stock gearing but 520 conversion consistently got low 50mpgs with a 50/50 mix of city and freeway!

The 06 FZ6 that blew the motor got 50mpg consistently all stock including chain but I also now live in the very back of a neighborhood with many stop signs!

My 2013 ZX6R gets mid 47 in the same conditions as my 06 FZ6 and low 50mpgs on the freeway on longer distance trips!

I think the best I ever got on the FZ6 was low 60mpg

From the research I did back in 05 the odometer was pretty accurite the speedo itself was optimistic but the actual odometer was almost dead on odd but it is what it is!

Yeah but my driving is like 95+% highway lol Unless my odometer is actually a pessimist (or the bike actually gets better mileage at slower than highway speeds)

 

[Crashz28]

Installing a power commander will not affect you reliability in any way. That's a ridiculous statement. I get 45 mpg all day long on my FZ6 with all the mods that are on it so far. . It would seem these bikes aren't the best for fuel economy.
.
Also, doing the cam swap won't affect reliability if done properly. The bottom End of the engine is made from R6 parts. The pistons, crank , rods, rings all share the same part numbers with the R6. A small 10 hp gain isn't going to affect reliability either.

Failures on engines these days are usually down to lack of care rather than a component failure. And if one does fail it's because of the former.

I've done 8k miles on my FZ6, most of which have been flat out. including 6 track days. It still runs like the day I got it, but that's because I warm it gently and do regular oil changes.



it would probably help with the 'lazy' feeling of the fuel injection on the FZ6 yyes and with the r6 head and cams would unleach most of the r6 ponies tbat are available but for the hassle and everything to swap it all over, it really isn't worth it. You might as well buy and R6 if you're going to spend that kinda money on it.

On a different note you ddo realise tthey went back to group injection (same as the FZ6)on the later model R6 don't you? so it can't be that bad!

I have 750 into my R6 motor swap including the R6 fuel pump throttle bodies ecu harness and cluster I sold my original cluster for the same as I paid for the R6 cluster if my original motor was still good I could have broken even on the whole swap! I still have other FZ6 parts I can sell I might come close to breaking even!

They are a tough motor I wish I would have kept my 05 FZ6 I ran that bike so hard always trying to keep up with the literbikes!

You have no reliabilty issues with the motor till you get near 150hp then stuff might start to break!
The FZ6 and R6 motors were designed decently I just happened to get a CRAP one with my 06

I have not researched the newer R6 but they also have 8 injectors still don't they? If so thats probably why they went to group injection!

As long as I do not dip into the 20s or 30mpg I am happy my boss gets that on his ZX10r that is just crap mileage

 

[FinalImpact]

Don't forget the R6 headers. Primaries are a tad larger than the FZ6. If you want torque, it may not help unless your ditching the CATs (don't recall what year your bike is). Likely wouldn't hurt the top end but IMO not worth the loss of torque in the mid range. Probably just have to try it to be sure after the cam swap.

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Don't forget the R6 headers. Primaries are a tad larger than the FZ6. If you want torque, it may not help unless your ditching the CATs (don't recall what year your bike is). Likely wouldn't hurt the top end but IMO not worth the loss of torque in the mid range. Probably just have to try it to be sure after the cam swap.

Currently the bike is running a De cat pipe.

If I can pick up a decent set of headers for cheap then I might be interested. I suspect though due to the fact I'm keeping the FZ6 head things will be fine and there won't be any big losses losses from running the FZ6 headers.

 

[4drfocus]

99-02 R6 headers from the 5EB engine fit the FZ6, they use the same pipe diameters, so no loss of torque, and no cats!

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Just wondered, anyone done this yet?

I've got some time to look at it again, still thinking of giving it a go or wondering weather to go the full hog and just get an R6 head + cams, loom, throttle body, ecu etc.

 

[FinalImpact]

Just wondered, anyone done this yet?

I've got some time to look at it again, still thinking of giving it a go or wondering weather to go the full hog and just get an R6 head + cams, loom, throttle body, ecu etc.

Few of late. Well last cpl years.
As stated the R6 does have different springs on the intake but the same PN is used on the Exh (FZ vs R6), one would think if it were the added RPM and perhaps coil oscillation at RPM, the springs were needed but then I'd like to think the EXH would need them too.

Advance the ignition timing 4 - 6 deg from stock and the throttle snatch disappears. Well with the Fuel and De-CAT.

Another thread is underway - same topic. My concern is throwing used parts together. Plenty do it but I'm a bit hesitant. Mostly from old V8 days of breaking in cams where it was 65% chance you lost the cam (only had one) as the existing parts worn in (work hardened as pair). Throwing used cam in different block against used lifters was a role of the dice.

If I were to do it, I'd opt for fresh lifter buckets which drives the cost up and that's perhaps overkill.

In the other thread I've got an S2 with PRE-CATs in the header. Those are going bye bye in favor of S1 header.

Look at post 27 and 28. 08 FZ6 Condensed Build thread ~Final Impact~

 

[fazil]

Valve buckets are like $25 each. 16x25 looks unaffordable
But may be that abrasion on the outer side of the bucket can be tolerated with shims. Possible?

Marty has swapped cams, what does he say about buckets ?

 

[0l0dom0l0]

Few of late. Well last cpl years.
As stated the R6 does have different springs on the intake but the same PN is used on the Exh (FZ vs R6), one would think if it were the added RPM and perhaps coil oscillation at RPM, the springs were needed but then I'd like to think the EXH would need them too.

Advance the ignition timing 4 - 6 deg from stock and the throttle snatch disappears. Well with the Fuel and De-CAT.

Another thread is underway - same topic. My concern is throwing used parts together. Plenty do it but I'm a bit hesitant. Mostly from old V8 days of breaking in cams where it was 65% chance you lost the cam (only had one) as the existing parts worn in (work hardened as pair). Throwing used cam in different block against used lifters was a role of the dice.

If I were to do it, I'd opt for fresh lifter buckets which drives the cost up and that's perhaps overkill.

In the other thread I've got an S2 with PRE-CATs in the header. Those are going bye bye in favor of S1 header.

Look at post 27 and 28. 08 FZ6 Condensed Build thread ~Final Impact~

I'll have a read thank you.

I've got an S1 so cats in the headers are not an issue. I had a dyno print out showing 95hp at the wheel before i decatted, so I expected a couple of ponies from the decat.

I can source the cams for £40, which makes this whole concept very appealing.

4-6 deg ignition advance, that's ALOT. No detonation issues with doing so?