Two bros: How loud is too loud?

[mcteague]

Yeah? How is it any different than any other vehicle on the road forcing their choice of loudness or gaudyness on everybody else.
If you don't want to hear a loud motorcycle, stay off the road.

And I see by your list of "upgrades" you are an offender. This colors your argument a bit. ANY extra loud vehicle is obnoxious regardless whether that noise comes from pipes or huge sub-woofers. Sure ugly vehicles can be an eyesore but it's easy to look away. I have not yet learned how to shut my ears.

People such as yourself never seem to learn that we live in a society and, in order to preserve some semblance of civility, we have to be considerate of others. How would you feel about a neighbor who had huge backyard speakers and played opera, I'm guessing you are not a fan, all day at full volume. Is that okay with you?

And, even though rarely enforced, most after market pipes already violate existing noise laws.

Tim

 

[Zealadin]

Just because other people do it too doesn't excuse us.
People kill each other, commit theft, rape etc etc, that doesn't make it ok...

I think considering everyone else who might be effected by your exhaust when making the choice is important.
If your getting up at 4am every morning to head of to work on your bike with the loudest exhaust you could find your definately not representing the motorcycling community (in a way it wants to be seen).
If you have a loud exhaust but only ride during the day when your not going to be disrupting anyone then thats slightly different.
Again it calls for judgement on whats normally acceptably loud, and whats never acceptably loud. Generally you can easily make the decision since whats not acceptable is something you wouldn't want to have to experience (or any of your friends or family to experience).
Self regulating is important, and knowing there is a time and place for everything.
That being said I don't think the choice should be taken away completely.

If you have a loud exhaust that you are proud of and are responsible about how you ride and when you ride then its probably not going to be an issue to compared to a rider who jumps on his bike at 4am, revs it to high buggery, waking up the neighborhood and then zooms off making the most noise possible. Altho again it does depend on the exhaust in question.

Probably the easiest way of answering the question of whether an exhaust is too loud is whether you would be happy to ride it passed police while riding normally (not dropping your revs or going into a higher gear to suddenly drop the noise level) or whether your family and friends would say anything if they where all your neighbors (or on your normal riding route).

Its all about consideration, I think what alot of the people saying exhausts can be too loud are trying to point out is that you make us all look bad when you cross that line, and that it can lead to a major backlash.
I guess I'm more optomistic in assuming most of us are considerate when making the choice. (The police here are also really strict so you don't get away with crossing the line for long)

I also think its a really hard arguement because what some of us consider loud could actually just be considered normal by others, or even be considered unnacceptable!
And its still reliant on how you ride, how fast you are going and what gear you are in.

Making the choice to get a loud can shouldn't be a spit in the eye of everyone else, but likewise it shouldn't become something considered bad or wrong because we don't even have a set figure or example of what loud is!

 

[08-FZ6]

If you have a loud exhaust but only ride during the day when your not going to be disrupting anyone then thats slightly different.

Well then the discussion should be about the rider and not the exhaust. I have a loud exhaust on both my bike & car but a little common sense goes a long way. I go slow through neighborhoods and keep my RPMs low BUT when I want to be heard, I can be!

 

[Zealadin]

Yep exactly, your responsible, so a 'loud' exhaust isn't an issue.

I think you hit the nail on the head, its not the exhaust its the rider.

 

[fizz_off]

I also agree that it's the rider's choice/responsibility to "do unto others..." whether it's loud stereos/cars/motorcycles or obnoxious behavior, in general. The DOT/Pohleese (at least around here) don't seem to give a $%^ so it seems owners of motor vehicles do as they please w/o a thought as to how it affects others. In fact, I think some of them ride modified bikes with straight pipes themselves. All I know is I'm tired of being awakened at 4:00 AM by the inconsiderate chopper/Harley riders (mostly) who make it a POINT of revving their unmuffled pieces of crap that are so loud it makes my ROOM/house shake as they drive by! Now THAT is loud.

Here's an idea, move this thread to a Harley/chopper (read: OCC type) forum and see how it goes - they're the REAL offenders IMHO.:spank: :Flip: (wondering how long it will be until we hear from Mr. FZ6/Harley owner and FZ6 riding Part time cop somewhere down in the Sowth LOL).

 

[Bruce McCrary]

If it were only that easy...

First, please please please, do a search on terms like "Motorcycle Noise legislation", "Motorcycle Noise Ordinances" and "Motorcycle Noise Issues". Pay particular attention to places like Denver Colorado, Myrtle Beach SC and New York City NY. NYC, NY... even with all the noise of the city, legislators singled out motorcycles as a nuisance. Fortunately that one was put on hold for the time being.

Then define in measurable terms "Too Loud". Someone else is already trying to do that for us.

Next, define a fair and reasonable testing procedure and when it should be done. There are so many variances in this that are already in use and being proposed that it makes my head spin.

For giggles look into the "Less Sound = More Ground" campaign done in the off road world and see how they are doing. While your at it, check on what organizations like the AMA and the Blue Ribbon Coalition have to say about the subject.

Like it or not, admit it or not, this issue has been and is continuing to come at us from all sides. There is already legislation being written at the federal level and being discussed with OEM's, aftermarket manufacturers and various motorcycle groups. The current proposals that are being discussed run from not being able to alter or replace OEM exhaust systems at all, to requiring aftermarket manufacturers to obtain federal emissions certifications and manufacture only products that fall within those guidelines. The industry is so concerned about it that there is talk of either forming a SEMA like group or try to align directly with them. This stuff is coming at us like a run away freight train, and you can choose to either get involved or wait and see what "they" decide for us.

It really is that simple.

Bruce

 

[SovietRobot]

And I see by your list of "upgrades" you are an offender. This colors your argument a bit. ANY extra loud vehicle is obnoxious regardless whether that noise comes from pipes or huge sub-woofers. Sure ugly vehicles can be an eyesore but it's easy to look away. I have not yet learned how to shut my ears.

People such as yourself never seem to learn that we live in a society and, in order to preserve some semblance of civility, we have to be considerate of others. How would you feel about a neighbor who had huge backyard speakers and played opera, I'm guessing you are not a fan, all day at full volume. Is that okay with you?

And, even though rarely enforced, most after market pipes already violate existing noise laws.

Tim

The people on this forum are so goddamn bitter and intolerant these days. What's the deal?

 

[mcteague]

The people on this forum are so goddamn bitter and intolerant these days. What's the deal?

Is it tolerant to allow someone to walk up to you and SCREAM in your ear? Would you be bitter to object? Same thing with loud pipes. Bitter and intolerant don't enter into it. It is basic civility.

Tim

 

[necrotimus]

I wonder how this arguement breaks down between urban and rural. I have no problem driving in Washington DC rush hour with my 2bros exhaust completely unrestricted. Most of the time I can't even hear it over the other background noises. But I did feel it was a little too much at times during our trip to the Dragon.


I have restrictors that I carry with me though so I can pick and choose the volume level.

Edit: after some quick research heavy traffic can run from 80 - 90 decibels

 

[ant_mb]

If you don't want to hear a loud motorcycle, stay off the road.

WOW!!!

 

[FZ1inNH]

Healthy debating is fine here in the forums, please keep it civil folks or we'll have to close the discussion.

Soviet, I don't think anyone is being bitter and intollerant outside of yourself in this thread. They seem to be bantering and debating a hot topic and doing a very good job at staying civil. The only comments that have created a stir have been those of your own. Please try to use this as an avenue to state your point without offending others. :thumbup:

 

[SovietRobot]

Okay yeah so my first post was a very civil, unoffending statement of my opinion.
Then everybody jumped up my ass because my opinion conflicted with theirs, and they tried to create a stir, and they did.

I'm not the only one "causing a stir". I'm just the only one you don't agree with.
That's the problem I have with this lately. People used to act like adults and could handle expressions of opinion.

As for the topic at hand, all I have to say is this:
People are going to do whatever they want. Whether that's loud or quiet pipes, body kits on their civics or ineffective blue headlights.
What one person may consider loud, could be considered quiet to everyone else, and vice versa.
Most states have laws in place to protect from people running straight open exhausts with no mufflers.

As for myself, I like having a somewhat "loud" bike because it aids in cars on the road noticing me so they don't kill me.
I don't ride through neughborhoods at 4am at full throttle. If I did ride during those times I would be considerate of others.

Someone else mentioned riding by police without keeping the revs low.
Yes I do it all the time. I'm not going to drop a gear or keep the revs low so a cop won't notice me. My exhaust is within the legal dBa limits. Cops tend to notice bikes anyways, and if they want to pull you over, they will find a reason, loud exhaust or not.

When I'm driving in my car, I notice bikes with loud exhausts 10 times more than bikes with stock exhausts.

My opinion is that if you get offended by hearing a loud exhaust, I don't know what to tell you. If you're content with riding with a quiet stock exhaust and people not noticing you, so be it, that's your choice.

 

[Bruce McCrary]

I wonder how this arguement breaks down between urban and rural.

Edit: after some quick research heavy traffic can run from 80 - 90 decibels

As interesting as that question is, and as much since as the "let the rider decide" argument makes in theory, both are pretty much irrelevant.

Legislators who hear complaints from constituents and contributors ask exactly what I have asked; "How loud is too loud?". Your research about heavy traffic is a good example. So are airliners taking off and landing at airports (usually reported in the 105~107 range when measured within 1000 ft). Your average stock automobile is in the high 70's. Keep in mind that for every increase of 10 dB's the actual 'level' of noise doubles.

Decibel Level Comparison Chart

I reported earlier that in national level AMA off road racing a 99 db or below was required to pass tech. I was wrong. For 2009 it has set at 94 dB's, which mirrors that of the FIM. There is talk that in 2011 it will be lowered yet again, probably to 90 db or lower.

The proposed legislation for street legal bikes I referred to earlier is hovering around the 80~83 db level.

But the real issue is the testing procedure(s) and how that relates to overall noise levels. Here's a quote from a nationally published magazine;

” In a recent test of mufflers, Pro Circuit built a 90dB muffler, 96dB muffler, 99db muffler and 102dB muffler. They tested all four mufflers with their sound test equipment and on their dyno. Once they had established all the criteria, they took all four mufflers out and did drive-by sound tests at full throttle. Surprise, all four mufflers were within 1dB of each other. They all ranged from 112dB to 113dB. Pro Circuit’s conclusion? Testing sound at a low rpm, when the bikes are ridden at a high rpm, is a total waste of time….. By the way, using the AMA/FIM sound equipment, a bike running full blast on the dyno taps out at 132 decibels.”

Factoring in testing procedures that vary the distance and angle that the instrument is positioned from the exhaust and you can begin to see what a can of worms we are dealing with, and why legislators prefer to error on the side of very low dB's.

Bruce

 

[urbanj]

I haven't read this whole thread but the last couple pages. As great as they sound, and I love motor sport, most people find it obnoxious. Someone may feel like they are entitled to their own opinion thats fine, but the law doesn't care what WE think.

I have the luxury of living about 5 miles from downtown vancouver, and pretty much a 2 hours drive to either Whistler mountain in one direction or a bunch of sweet lakes the other. Now if I lived out in the boonies I'm sure really loud pipes would be fine but Vancouver is a very green city and stuff like this gets enforced daily. It's summer time now and one trip though downtown to get to the beaches or the entertainment district will most certainly get you pulled over with a ticket. There is no tolerance for it.

The pipes echo off buildings and cars. Set off alarms and when you have hundreds of tourists walking around just feet from you, you can see why the general public may find it offensive.

Then there is the quality of the sound. We have this discussion frequently here about engineering and OEM design. Now a lambo driving through downtown with its nice burble at cruise and roar when on the throttle is WAY WAY WAY different than the guy with his base model civic with a fart can that is loud at all levels. Even the lambo has to meet noise standards.

So yeah, to me most pipes are too loud.

When I ride I focus on me seeing the cagers, not they seeing me. Doesn't matter how loud your bike is, I'm sure my car stereo blasting tunes in a modern unibody vehicle with superb sound deadening is louder than anything you can throw at it. Trust no one.

 

[FZ1inNH]

I'm just the only one you don't agree with.

I don't believe that I've stated that I totally agree with any one person here. I have my own views and did express them, objectively. I didn't tell people to "stay off the road" and I wouldn't. If people want to be treated like an adult, then those people need to start acting like an adult. Those kind of blanket statements and generalizations are only going to cause grief and put most folks on the defensive. All's I am saying is to try and remain objective and factual rather than use blanket statements and cause a stir. It's all good...

 

[Zealadin]

And I see by your list of "upgrades" you are an offender. This colors your argument a bit.
Tim

Actually he WAS called out as being "an offender" which is a totally unfair appraisal without actually knowing him and how he rides (IMHO).

As much as I hate to be the next **** stirrer I think his comment about intolerance is pretty spot on. He stated his opinion, and because of his sig was called out. Thats the exact definition of intolerance and discrimination.

This is the kind of attitude which dooms any kind of defence against these legislations from the start. It is ALSO what government and problem groups love to do, rather than making it an issue including the whole group they make a point of only targetting a certain sub-group, and then laughing in glee as the rest of the group turns on them.

Also the sound levels created by a motorcycle at full throttle?
You don't -need- to even pass the halfway mark to full revs on a FZ6 and your able to do any legal speed, why would you institute a standard which doesn't actually represent most riders?
Or if it does its generally people out on open roads or out of the way twisties where sure there is going to be noise, but thats why they left town to go for a ride.
Not to mention that most cagey's wouldn't hear someone firing an automatic rifle outside their window they are so insular and unaware.

If instead of jumping on others riders back because your afraid of losing something of yours, work with the whole community to combat this kind of stupidity, we might actually get somewhere.
Here at least the biggest issue riders have with government is the fact they get very little actual feedback from riders, even when its an issue of importance. When they do receive the feedback, because a significant number of people ride they have to take note.

When it comes down to it, this kind of attempt to limit riders rights should just be tied right in with limiting what size speakers and stereo systems cars can take, what exhausts they can take etc, because that way instead of targetting just riders, its targetting all road users instead of discriminating against one small group, and there will be a loud defense.

So yeah, to me most pipes are too loud.

This kind of statement is pretty much the root of the problem, so your saying ANY vehicle which requires an exhaust (ie anything pretty much not electrical) is too loud.
Thats a really open minded and fair appraisal of the situation.

If you can't appreciate the beautiful exhaust note from a performance car, then your part of a close minded egotistical group who beleives the world should revolve around them. At the very least you should have the education and tolerance to put up with it, even if its not your cup of tea.
I mean we are putting up with 'your' (not pointing any fingers) kind of person even though the world would probably be a better place without you.

Which brings me back to my original point, once you give in to these social terrorists, people who use fear and ignorance to get their way your just allowing them to get on a roll.
You have to combat these people by presenting the merit of your arguements instead of blindly agreeing with them, hoping they'll take pity, and then by actually gathering support from riders and people who know them, present the counter arguement whether its based on the right to chose, fair rights for all road users, or just the plain old proving the complainers are a tiny minority who don't really represent anyone.

Here the biggest threat we are facing is front license plates, something that it looks will fail because the whole community kicked up a fuss. The reason for this? Apparently some (very rare) speed camera's are front facing only.
Nevermind the dangers of having a plate on the front or damaging the aerodynamics of the bike.
Based purely on ignorance this is the kind of thing we need to watch out for.

 

[necrotimus]

Just more useless sound information I found interesting.

Sound readings taken from inside a Smart Car (those tiny two seaters)

Sustained steady speed (accelerating will be much louder)

IDLE--warmed up, stationary, in Park--82 db
40 mph, 5th gear--91 db
50 mph 90 db
60 mph 92 db
70 mph 94 db
80 mph 96 db

 

[bmccrary]

If instead of jumping on others riders back because your afraid of losing something of yours, work with the whole community to combat this kind of stupidity, we might actually get somewhere.

Last time I checked this is called the International FZ6 Motorcycle Community. It is hard to get a large number of people together and the internet is a great way to spread awarness of subjects, good or bad. I dare to say that there are large number of members that probably had no idea that that people in office are working rather dilibritly to close our riding parks (off road) and cut down on our enjoyment on the street.

My father spends his evenings on the computer constantly researching these bills and finding groups of people who are working against them in civilized manners. In this he also spreads the word, and by being behind a counter at bike shop all day he mentions what he finds to those that care to listen. In addition does his part to help out the situation by offering discounts if a customer chooses a quieter slip-on over one that is advertised as being loud. Next time your at you local dealership, ask your parts man if he will do that for you...

Sometimes it is easier to speak to individuals rather than a group. In no way shape or form is my father or any other member, IMHO, was trying to bash or wrong anyone who runs an aftermarket pipe. Information is just be passed around about the dangers we face as a community so that we can all enjoy what we love later down the road.

If you have some free time, research some the recent land closing and rally's that were shut down due to noise. In the past few years the off-road community has lost hundreds of thousands of acres of public land due to noise and misuse.

So in the words of the off-road world. "Tread Lightly"

-bryan

 

[Zealadin]

There is a major difference between educating people, and just perpetuating the cycle caused by bike haters.
Also as far as I can see, the people against 'loud' exhausts haven't actually made any kind of indication on what they consider loud, or what should be acceptable, nor tried to be understanding of all peoples rights, ie the people who want a louder exhaust.
They have made broad generalisations about any form of loud exhaust being too loud, and basically accused anyone with a loud exhaust (or supporting one) of destroying the sport, and putting it in jeopardy.

Every time I see a posts against a loud exhaust all I see is more mindless dogma, because loud is a totally relative term. You are trying to argue a point and you can't even establish a baseline on what is acceptable, you literally don't know what most people posting here actually consider loud, and are still basically ear bashing them for having an opinion which you are making assumptions about.

Almost everyone argueing FOR 'loud' exhausts has done so in a responsible manner, not representing the right to wake up anyone within a kilometre by turning on their bike.

Also on road and off road issues are entirely seperate.
Off-road bikes are generally alot louder, and here at least we see an enormous amount of yahoo's who take out the baffles and do -anything- they can to make their bike as obnoxious as possible.

This -isn't- the attitude I'm seeing here, in fact the opposite is true, (with a few exceptions) with people being very conscientious about their exhausts, which realistically is all we can ask.

And this is all after certain people couldn't win an arguement about an -audible- or -loud- exhaust having a possible safety feature.
Its been a great beat-up, really.

 

[Abnatare]

I personally didn't really think the dB killers made any difference. I too thought the 2bros pipes were obnoxiously loud when I first installed but love them now. Like Necro said above. Give it some time.