When to Downshift into 1st

[Geoff]

Well, I don't like not having a gear indicator. I've only ridden my FZ6 a couple of times, but I can say that sometimes (compared to my previous bike) downshfting in to second gear feels like downshifting in to first gear. First gear seems only for very slow speed work.

That being said, I've accidentally shifted in to first gear a number of times because I just have no idea what gear I'm in.... Bleh. Next mod, maybe.

RhadamYgg

Be one with the motorcycle, feel and listen to what it wants. or! Gear indicator....

I honestly rarely use 1st gear unless im rolling to a stop. Right now I have no speedometer, thats actually interesting riding like that. Although I will have a new speedometer (RX1N) this friday.

 

[yamahaha]

If im wanting to 'back it in' to a corner then i will. other than that im goin to fast for first and second wheelies way better.

really? i can get it the front wheel up in 1st no problem at pretty much any rpm from midrange up but getting it up in second is work. with that being said i never slip the clutch, all power. got any tips or are you using the clutch to pop 2nd gear wheelies??


side note: what is everyones obsession with engine braking? you are gonna wear out brake pads basically never so why put the wear and tear on ur engine and gears? seems pointless and i never do it except in long turns when i've pushed it to hard..but light braking does the same thing.

 

[Bikebiz]

Engine braking is good because it's not going to lock up on you like manual braking can, and it works all the way through a corner if you need it. Also if you're doing a right hand corner leaning heavily, you won't even be able to use your rear brake.

Go and ride a v-twin and then tell me you don't like engine braking It's not to save pad wear.

No bike will wheelie better in a higher gear than a lower gear, so I suspect he means that in 2nd, you are in a better position to hold a wheelie for longer (you will rev out at a lower speed in 1st). But unless there are drastic gearing or engine mods, you will most certainly need to clutch it up in 2nd (or use a huge crest and a big yoink on the bars!).

 

[yamahaha]

Engine braking is good because it's not going to lock up on you like manual braking can, and it works all the way through a corner if you need it. Also if you're doing a right hand corner leaning heavily, you won't even be able to use your rear brake.

Go and ride a v-twin and then tell me you don't like engine braking It's not to save pad wear.

No bike will wheelie better in a higher gear than a lower gear, so I suspect he means that in 2nd, you are in a better position to hold a wheelie for longer (you will rev out at a lower speed in 1st). But unless there are drastic gearing or engine mods, you will most certainly need to clutch it up in 2nd (or use a huge crest and a big yoink on the bars!).

i learned on a vtwin. suzuki sv 650s. engine braking is way overrated. you should be on the front brakes way more than the back brakes anyway. the engine braking will always be there as a back up.

 

[Rhadamygg]

Be one with the motorcycle, feel and listen to what it wants. or! Gear indicator....

I honestly rarely use 1st gear unless im rolling to a stop. Right now I have no speedometer, thats actually interesting riding like that. Although I will have a new speedometer (RX1N) this friday.

Now that's just crazy talk! I'm still getting used to this bike, and I've locked the rear brake twice. Seriously debating not using the back brake.

 

[Bikebiz]

My FZ6 is the first inline 4 I've actually owned. Last 3 bikes were v-twins. I'm finding it far more difficult to corner at the same speeds because I don't have the safety net of the engine braking.

For example I decide I've hit the correct entry speed for a corner by braking a certain amount. As I enter the corner I'm off the brakes and holding a particular throttle position. Let's say this is a tight 90degree one. Ok so as I round it, it tightens further and I realise I need to slow down more.

V-twin: Simply roll smoothly off throttle and the bike slows without upsetting the balance. Roll back on smoothly when ready.
Inline: Roll off as above, but reach for one or both brakes and determine by how much you need to brake to slow down enough, but not too much that you risk upsetting your balance or locking your rear wheel. And becuase you most likely hit the front brake a tad as well, you've then got to get back on the throttle smoothly because you've altered your hand position a little by moving at least one finger from the grip. Then roll back on as above.

I'm not saying you can't corner as fast, I'm saying it's definitely a lot easier on a twin because of the engine braking, other things being equal. If you can use engine braking to your advantage, you can concentrate on other aspects of your riding more closely.

 

[Wyotech kid]

I've found engine braking to be quite an advantage at least for me. Whether it be track days or normal riding around on the street.

I"m sure we've all had times on the street where we've had to stop really hard and brakes weren't enough and had to use engine brakes. Saved my bacon a few times, Now I have gone into 1st gear at a rather higher rate of speed than first gear would usually like, 40 mph is pushing it but it sure does help you quicker.

Track days I've also had to use engine braking because stock brakes don't quite like a lot of heat. First time out I used my brakes so much that I could almost smell them cookin. I didnt know to engine brake and relied heavily on my brakes. But thats a rookie for ya. But after awhile engine braking has been beneficial because I've increased corner speed, and my brakes don't fade.

 

[Rhadamygg]

This isn't a quality of inline 4's , but a quality of the Fz6. My other inline 4 engine braked much more easily and I almost never used brake on the highway - just roll off the throttle. On the FZ6 I I roll off the throttle and then get a quesy feeling as the bike keeps on rolling when I expect it to start slowing down. Then I brake - a little more agressively then I really need to.

My FZ6 is the first inline 4 I've actually owned. Last 3 bikes were v-twins. I'm finding it far more difficult to corner at the same speeds because I don't have the safety net of the engine braking.

For example I decide I've hit the correct entry speed for a corner by braking a certain amount. As I enter the corner I'm off the brakes and holding a particular throttle position. Let's say this is a tight 90degree one. Ok so as I round it, it tightens further and I realise I need to slow down more.

V-twin: Simply roll smoothly off throttle and the bike slows without upsetting the balance. Roll back on smoothly when ready.
Inline: Roll off as above, but reach for one or both brakes and determine by how much you need to brake to slow down enough, but not too much that you risk upsetting your balance or locking your rear wheel. And becuase you most likely hit the front brake a tad as well, you've then got to get back on the throttle smoothly because you've altered your hand position a little by moving at least one finger from the grip. Then roll back on as above.

I'm not saying you can't corner as fast, I'm saying it's definitely a lot easier on a twin because of the engine braking, other things being equal. If you can use engine braking to your advantage, you can concentrate on other aspects of your riding more closely.

 

[yamahaha]

My FZ6 is the first inline 4 I've actually owned. Last 3 bikes were v-twins. I'm finding it far more difficult to corner at the same speeds because I don't have the safety net of the engine braking.

For example I decide I've hit the correct entry speed for a corner by braking a certain amount. As I enter the corner I'm off the brakes and holding a particular throttle position. Let's say this is a tight 90degree one. Ok so as I round it, it tightens further and I realise I need to slow down more.

V-twin: Simply roll smoothly off throttle and the bike slows without upsetting the balance. Roll back on smoothly when ready.
Inline: Roll off as above, but reach for one or both brakes and determine by how much you need to brake to slow down enough, but not too much that you risk upsetting your balance or locking your rear wheel. And becuase you most likely hit the front brake a tad as well, you've then got to get back on the throttle smoothly because you've altered your hand position a little by moving at least one finger from the grip. Then roll back on as above.

I'm not saying you can't corner as fast, I'm saying it's definitely a lot easier on a twin because of the engine braking, other things being equal. If you can use engine braking to your advantage, you can concentrate on other aspects of your riding more closely.

+1. i was mainly refering to using the engine around town/stop lights/etc..in turns it is a definite weapon

 

[Bikebiz]

This isn't a quality of inline 4's , but a quality of the Fz6. My other inline 4 engine braked much more easily and I almost never used brake on the highway - just roll off the throttle. On the FZ6 I I roll off the throttle and then get a quesy feeling as the bike keeps on rolling when I expect it to start slowing down. Then I brake - a little more agressively then I really need to.

It's an inline 4 thing. It's inherent in the design. I'm no engineer, but I believe it's related to the piston mass, as well as the firing frequency (ie v-twin cylinders fire once per crank revolution, and even then it can be uneven like 60-30 degrees), so even pulses on an inline 4 and twice as often).

+1. i was mainly refering to using the engine around town/stop lights/etc..in turns it is a definite weapon

Yeah I kinda noticed I was getting off track from the original post. In terms of coming to a stop, I'm only downshifting with the reduced speed so that if I need to go again I'm already in the correct gear.

 

[chunkygoat]

I use the engine to brake a lot also, I don't do it in first to much, I agree with Kriswithak about the Fizzer hating to go into first sometimes, too clunky,sound like it's gonna break something.
But I do enjoy downshifting and chirping my rear tire sometimes. Locking up the back tire or skidding does not bother me much because I ride dirt a lot, and practice quick stops on the Fizzer, usually get going about 40 mph, lock up the back brake, start fishtailing, then apply the front brake and see how fast I can stop under control. Probably not the way they teach it in those fancy sportbike schools, but it works for me, Did about a 30 degree stoppie once, scared the hell outta me. Adrenaline is sooo kool...

If you're locking your back brake, you're not achieving maximum stopping power.

If you're only using the front brake (stoppie) then you're not achieving maximum stopping power.

In a "oh ****" moment, you would want to stop as quickly as possible, not do a stoppie into the back of a car - or downside under a truck. Learn how hard you can brake before you lock them up.

 

[macem29]

only downshift into first if I know I'm going to have to stop,
if I expect the bike to keep rolling, even at very low speed,
I stay in second....for me first is a get going gear

 

[Neilio]

I rarely engine break when coming to a stop, simply because it leads me to lazy braking. Never put it in first untill I'm right at the light.

 

[kwick]

Am i the only one that likes to go hard in first and shift at 13ooo rpms when upshifting ?
I always downshift into 1st before a stop even if only momentarily, around 20-25 mph
but i like to ride hard in first and second keeping the rpms high.

 

[Pauly_V]

It depends. On the track first gear is used as an actual riding gear. On the street I really only get there once I've come to a stop.

 

[Jacobien]

Oops, I've downshifted a couple of times from about 55mph or so. (Redlined it) Hope it did not damage anything...(Probably did)

Anyway, I agree with the clutch/downgear/rev/release method. It makes shifting smoother and sounds wicked as well. The latter reason being the dominant one...

 

[Vroom!Vroom!]

Depends... If you are highly skilled in the correct environment you can hit first at a good clip. otherwise use your shift up points(owners manual version) as your down points. Using throttle to blip(match your rpm's) you could hit first at slightly higher speeds. Use time and experience as your best judgment.

I don't believe you have to "blip" the throttle when downshifting (engine breaking). It's all about smooth clutch control. You can downshift into first gear going 25mph, and as long as you let the clutch go gradually, you will not lock up. Trust me, I do it all the time. Like I once read before when I had a question about downshifting, thinking you have to "blip" the throttle to match RPMs is all about mental comfort. It doesn't do anything besides put your mind at ease. The only thing you have to worry about is downshifting into a gear that is wayyy too low for your speed (ex. going 60 mph and downshifting into 2nd gear).

 

[oldfast007]

I don't believe you have to "blip" the throttle when downshifting (engine breaking). It's all about smooth clutch control. You can downshift into first gear going 25mph, and as long as you let the clutch go gradually, you will not lock up. Trust me, I do it all the time. Like I once read before when I had a question about downshifting, thinking you have to "blip" the throttle to match RPMs is all about mental comfort. It doesn't do anything besides put your mind at ease. The only thing you have to worry about is downshifting into a gear that is wayyy too low for your speed (ex. going 60 mph and downshifting into 2nd gear).

Well that's a different school of thought. I prefer to "blip" as for me I can control my throttle better than feathering the clutch. Watch the Pridmore video. See what you think??

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOax2ftgbNU]YouTube - Motorcycle Downshifting with Jason Pridmore at Miller Motorsports Park[/ame]

I like this one as well...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMDos9jyFpI&feature=more_related"]YouTube - Dirk Anderson: "Blipping" the Throttle[/ame]

 

[viviifz6]

I usually dont down shift into first until right before I am going to take off, I go around corners in atleast 2nd and downshift from 2nd to neutral at stops. I like to think its easier on the gears, but what do i know!

 

[af_tourer]

I tried it once on my old bike (a honda shadow) and it scared the crap out of me (WAM!! BANG!! PING!! KNOCK!! all at once), so i like to avoid going down to first until i'm virtually stopped. Then again I did it at about 40 and it was my first bike so I didn't know any better. So yes, under 15 definitely. :thumbup: