Video Found - My Exact Idle Problem

[Zealot]

Tell me if you're sick of me, really.

I found a video which I never saw before that outlines the idle pattern of my bike. I'm slowly investigating things as I get days off, but it's a lot easier to get distracted and go riding than sit at home and wrench on the thing.

Anyways, this is it:

YouTube

What on earth could be causing that?! Mine does that exact same thing and it drives me bonkers... Revs up pretty good (although please, if yours sounds different revving than in the video, do say so) and pulls hard without any trouble up to my current record of 215km/h, but idles like a pig and it's kind of embarrassing really. My buddy has TB pipes and his idles beautifully.

So far I've done:
-TB Sync
-Upped my Idle

Looking to do these tomorrow:
-Check plug caps and fix wires if need be (which I think might help, since I noticed my bike sputtering for a while after I washed it a week ago until it dried off)
-Try to ground the wire to adjust CO settings



Side note, I also noticed something strange. If I'm coasting at high speed and put the bike in neutral, when I let the clutch out the bike makes a brief "whirr" sound but nothing seems to come from it. No change in RPM, no feeling anywhere on the bike. At a stand still there doesn't appear to be any sort of power transfer going on, and that's with the bike on the center stand to ensure nothing is moving anywhere.

 

[FinalImpact]

Tell me if you're sick of me, really.

I found a video which I never saw before that outlines the idle pattern of my bike. I'm slowly investigating things as I get days off, but it's a lot easier to get distracted and go riding than sit at home and wrench on the thing.

Anyways, this is it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzAgbYITmY

What on earth could be causing that?! Mine does that exact same thing and it drives me bonkers... Revs up pretty good (although please, if yours sounds different revving than in the video, do say so) and pulls hard without any trouble up to my current record of 215km/h, but idles like a pig and it's kind of embarrassing really. My buddy has TB pipes and his idles beautifully.

So far I've done:
-TB Sync
-Upped my Idle ((FROM WHAT TO WHAT))

Looking to do these tomorrow:
-Check plug caps and fix wires if need be (which I think might help, since I noticed my bike sputtering for a while after I washed it a week ago until it dried off)
-Try to ground the wire to adjust CO settings

Just a thought, perhaps keep it all in the same thread so we can see what's changed? -->> TB Sync - A Nightmare

FWIW: IMO you need a good vacuum gauge. These can be had online or from an automotive shop. From there, connect the vacuum gauge to the vacuum sensor using a T and two sections of hose.
- Now you can correlate the DIY sync tool to actual vacuum values. The goal is 8.6inHg Look here for details... Post 163 Build your own Manometer for Throttle Body Sync!

FZ6 Idling condition S1/S2 models...
Engine idling speed: 1250–1350 r/min
Intake vacuum: 29.0 kPa (8.6 inHg) (218 mmHg)
Water temperature: 95.0–105.0 °C (203.00–221.00 °F)

Something I didn't say in that post is to make sure you don't run the Main Idle Speed screw out of adjustment. This can happen when playing with the CO (C1/C2) settings. Which I would LEAVE ALONE for now. Although looking and reporting the values is not a bad thing.

What I mean is; when done doing the sync AND you get ~8.5 - 9.0inHg of vacuum, make sure the idle speed screw still allows the idle speed to change from 900 to 1500 RPM. If the MAIN Idle Speed Screw has No impact, the Sync screws are out too far!

Removing the cleaning the Idle Are Control Valve may not be a bad idea either.

 

[Motogiro]

That hunting idle is probably because it's a little lean at idle. This is usually from reducing back pressure. If you cover one pipe you may hear the hunting stop, confirming a lean idle. Probably not too lean and it will probably only be evident at idle.

 

[Zealot]

Removing the cleaning the Idle Are Control Valve may not be a bad idea either.

Upped my idle to something about 1350ish, as it smooths out the wubbing sound a tad bit. TB's were synced and don't appear to be the issue as far as the idle is concerned since it still exists - which is why I made a new thread. I wasn't sure if there was anything discernable in that YouTube video as to why the bike would be idling like that (and by extension, like mine). The odd time it's totally smooth, but the majority of the time it's just going all over the place.

I'll try to find my way to the Idle Air Control and see about cleaning it (although it'll be a shot in the dark) for sure, since that sounds like it could be part of the problem. Time for some investigating! Is there any sort of methodology to the cleaning? I found a picture of the whole setup nicely labelled, but I don't know how I'd clean the thing exactly.

 

[Zealot]

That hunting idle is probably because it's a little lean at idle. This is usually from reducing back pressure. If you cover one pipe you may hear the hunting stop, confirming a lean idle. Probably not too lean and it will probably only be evident at idle.

You see, that's the strange thing. My buddy has an 07 with pipes on his and he doesn't have any issues at all, and hasn't touched a thing on it. I don't quite get why mine in particular is doing that...

If I recall correctly, covering one of the pipes seemed to smooth out the wub. Going to test that again tomorrow and likely see about grounding that diagnostic wire for some CO tweaking, see what happens. Worst come to worst I could just put it back to zero.

 

[Cortez]

That's exactly what my friends FZ6 sounded like when he put on LEO pipes.
Also, mine as it gets older and the exhaust is definitely getting louder is also
moving to that direction. Another friend with a ZX6R and a MIVV pipe, same thing.

Perfectly normal from what I can tell.
Using the DB killers in the exhaust sorts it out.

 

[thisisbenji]

Yup mine does that too with NO BAFFLES in my Leo pipes, with the BAFFLES in it idles smooth.

You can check if this is your problem by covering one of the pipes, the idle should smooth out.

If you really like running NO BAFFLES you could probably tune it.

 

[FinalImpact]

Thats why I'm saying go to post 163 of the TB DIY Sync thread...

Too lean, the vacuum climbs. Mine has the same tendancies but it began when when i advanaced the iginition timing. Richen it to 8.5inHg and its nearly nonexistent....

There is MORE info in post 163. Go read it.

I picked on Carbtune on the cheap from fleebay. Connecting all ports together I verified all 4 read the same at various vacuum conditions and gave it a test on the bike. It should be noted that its not a true vacuum gauge... More later.

As stated, you CAN ADJUST THESE BIKES TO MEET the OEM SPEC for Vacuum but you have to move the #1 screw and all the others (equal amounts) to do so. Or change the CO or Fuel controller values.

AS FOUND vacuum and throttle body vacuum readings from tuning by ear: Higher vacuum indicates lean mixture.

And after using gauges to see the values - AS LEFT ~ 220mmHg: Which if you notice is the SAME VALUE the VACUUM GAUGE READS --> and is the OEM SPEC 8.6inHg / 218mmHg

AFR reported by controller.... I think it was 12.5:1 when I left it, This may have been while testing the range I could obtain with the screws as the RPM is at 1400.

In this picture I was verifying that removing fuel (-10) entries at 1000 and 1500 RPM equate to 1.00:1 AFR point and they do! Hint: once the TB's are synce'd, those with fuel controllers can adjust the AFR here.

One last thing. I set all screws to exactly ONE TURN out and the variance from the group was less then 0.5cmHg (meter scale is 2.0cmHg major division (20mmHg), 0.5cmHg minor division (5mmHg). The device does not have sufficent resolution to read anything less than 10mmHg accurately as the values are moving targets (relies on vacuum leak and pulses to settle itself).
- On that note: I'm not too impressed with Morgan Carbtune device. Its not a "true Vacuum gauge," Its a Flow Meter! IT RELIES ON AIR LEAK PAST THE RODS TO make measurements. So when the CAPS are returned to the Sync hoses on the bike, NO MORE ARE leak and the Values recorded are NOT the ACTUAL conditions its running under! The Carbtune device is Introducing AIR Changes into the Idle Mixture.... Its why the device can not hold vacuum like the oil filled gauge I shown above. Thankfully it was cheap!

Fwiw: the Carbtune is handy as it has no fluids. My bias comes from working in a calibration lab and verifying /certifying flow and vacuum meters. Flow meters use pressure differential to make measurements. Thats what this device is doing and it ADDS air that is not present once its removed.

 

[FinalImpact]

Upped my idle to something about 1350ish, as it smooths out the wubbing sound a tad bit. TB's were synced and don't appear to be the issue as far as the idle is concerned since it still exists - which is why I made a new thread. I wasn't sure if there was anything discernable in that YouTube video as to why the bike would be idling like that (and by extension, like mine). The odd time it's totally smooth, but the majority of the time it's just going all over the place.

I'll try to find my way to the Idle Air Control and see about cleaning it (although it'll be a shot in the dark) for sure, since that sounds like it could be part of the problem. Time for some investigating! Is there any sort of methodology to the cleaning? I found a picture of the whole setup nicely labelled, but I don't know how I'd clean the thing exactly.

Completely unscrew and remove the TB sync screws. If all black and loaded with deposits, it may be worthwhile to clean the main idle control valve. The one under the thumb screw. I'd suggest MAF cleaner....

 

[greg]

my bike sounds a bit like that, I assumed it was normal...

 

[SandyN]

May not be completely relevant: have the throttle bodies been removed at any stage? I had a mate whose Thundercat would not idle and also had a suicide throttle tendency where, as you roll off, the bike accelerates (not pleasant!)

I stripped, cleaned and synced his carbs, but found the problem to be with the clamps. The clamp allen bolts are difficult to get to and someone had moved the clamps to make access easier. By doing this they had misaligned the notch in the clamp which fits over a lug in the rubber and thereby allowed more air into the system (leaner), causing the idle problem and hanging throttle. Might be worth looking at? I took photo's but can't find them now...

 

[Zealot]

Completely unscrew and remove the TB sync screws. If all black and loaded with deposits, it may be worthwhile to clean the main idle control valve. The one under the thumb screw. I'd suggest MAF cleaner....

I'm going to look into purchasing a proper vacuum gauge in that case before I go about unscrewing everything. I don't have a working Manometer as it stands, and don't want to risk throwing things off where they're otherwise better off. Soon though!

I'm trying to investigate the CO adjustment while I wait on some TB Baffles (and my custom levers :rockon but can't for the life of me reach or figure out what wire I'm trying to ground, or how exactly to ground it. The explanations over here Enable CO Adjustment are garbage, as are the pictures. I could actually go off on a rant about horribly documented tutorials and explanations, since I'm not able to discern much from vague explanations and tiny photos.

This is what I'm looking at:

I can't move the connectors at all due to a lack of play in the wires, and I haven't a clue what end I'd run something out of, or where to go. It looks like I'd run it out on the left side of the connector where nothing comes out (maybe through the rubber plug that blocks it?), and then ground it elsewhere. Would a thicker, (I think) 18 gauge wire work, or would the change in thickness throw off the resistance in the wire?

 

[FinalImpact]

Within the clear 6 pin harness is a rubber plug to prevent moisture intrusion. With key off, seperate connector, push out the plug. Insert your bare 18 gauge wire (i used a small probe lead) where the plug was, assemble the connector. Touch the other end to any steel engine bolt.

Follow button sequence to view CO option.

I used a standard test lead and an alligator clamp...

Edit added tool used for CO adjust...

 

[Zealot]

Within the clear 6 pin harness is a rubber plug to prevent moisture intrusion. With key off, seperate connector, push out the plug. Insert your bare 18 gauge wire (i used a small probe lead) where the plug was, assemble the connector. Touch the other end to any steel engine bolt.

Follow button sequence to view CO option.

I used a standard test lead and an alligator clamp...

I think I see what you're saying... I just can't for the life of me separate those connectors. The plastic tabs that hold it in place won't budge (even with a second hand I'm not able to get it)

 

[FinalImpact]

Seriously tho; take a picture of the exact orientation of the TB sync screws and turn them all CW 1/2 turn. Fix the idle speed with thrumb screw and see what happens. Fwiw: try both directions (in/out) but keep track of turns from fully seated.

If it doesnt help, use your picture or sharpie markings to put it back.

 

[Zealot]

Seriously tho; take a picture of the exact orientation of the TB sync screws and turn them all CW 1/2 turn. Fix the idle speed with thrumb screw and see what happens. Fwiw: try both directions (in/out) but keep track of turns from fully seated.

If it doesnt help, use your picture or sharpie markings to put it back.

What would turning out the screws (all four? Just the three you're allowed?) accomplish exactly? I'm confused.

The tabs on my plastic connector absolutely will not budge no matter what I'm trying. I don't even know anymore. /bangs head on wall

 

[Zealot]

Okay, so the connectors:

There's the big tab on the top that seems like you lift it with a screwdriver. What about the left and right sides? There's two more tab like things there but I can't figure out what to do with those. Pulling on the connector with just the top doesn't do much more than squish the connector, and nothing moves.

 

[FinalImpact]

What would turning out the screws (all four? Just the three you're allowed?) accomplish exactly? I'm confused.

The tabs on my plastic connector absolutely will not budge no matter what I'm trying. I don't even know anymore. /bangs head on wall

Did you read post 163 in the DIY TB link i posted? It does explain why and when you want to move all 4 screws equally. I am curious what your CO values are?? If the two are different by +/-3 it may be worthwhile to;
- record values
- change them to match highest value observed C1/C2
- resync (or set them out like a 1/2 to 3/4 turn

If it doesnt fix it, it can ALL be put back if you take proper notes.... My S2 was 0/0 for C1/C2 if that helps at all.

My point; some of these bikes have 25,000 miles on them now and variants of the tune are not unreasonable. If these actions DO NOT HELP IT, valve check/adjustment and vacuum leaks are the next big items to confim they are 100% OK!

 

[Zealot]

Did you read post 163 in the DIY TB link i posted? It does explain why and when you want to move all 4 screws equally. I am curious what your CO values are?? If the two are different by +/-3 it may be worthwhile to;
- record values
- change them to match highest value observed C1/C2
- resync (or set them out like a 1/2 to 3/4 turn

If it doesnt fix it, it can ALL be put back if you take proper notes.... My S2 was 0/0 for C1/C2 if that helps at all.

My point; some of these bikes have 25,000 miles on them now and variants of the tune are not unreasonable. If these actions DO NOT HELP IT, valve check/adjustment and vacuum leaks are the next big items to confim they are 100% OK!

So you're saying to turn them in and consequently make the mix more rich? I'll poke around with a sharpie and give them a bit of a tweak to see what happens.

I can't see what my CO values are since I can't get the plastic connector apart. I see the top tab that lifts up, but there seems to be something finicky on the left and right sides since I can't separate the two no matter how much I pull. The connector just bends and warps from the pliers and nothing comes from it.

Edit: Bike is warming up now. How do you separate the connectors for future reference? Lift the top tab a bit with a screwdriver and use pliers isn't working. Is there more than one tab to worry about (as there appears to be two smaller things on the side - not sure how I'd reach everything at once if that were the case)?

Edit Edit: The wubbing is almost entirely gone now! Blocking off one of my pipes would remove the ****ty idle, but it would come back when I moved the blockage. I did the 1/2 turn on the TB screws and the idle smoothed out considerably. My only concern is that two of the screws (I think 2 and 4) are essentially 'bottomed out' as far as being turned in is concerned. I adjusted the idle to somewhere in the 1250-1350 range and it's very smooth save for the odd little, barely audible stutter. What is my next step from here? Can I leave the screws where they are and ride the bike? Furthermore, would doing some slight tweaking with the screws help me at all? I'm pretty happy as it stands - but I want to know if it's rideable.

Edit Edit Edit: Nevermind. Turned the bike off to give you an update, went back out and fired it up again - hello wubbing. ****. I'm at such a loss here! How does it revert after being off for two minutes when nothing about the adjustments changed?!

 

[FinalImpact]

If its been idling a lot, go ride it. Plugs load up and change it perhaps?

Connector: only the top locks. It opens by hand.
- Most locks are lever action. You either push down or pull up. That said, push it firmly together and (pry up/down fingers should do) and then try to pull it apart.
If you pull before the lock is released, it won't release.