Turbo time. Seriously.

[ChanceCoats123]

What will the R6 cams do?

I don't know for sure since I haven't looked up any information about the R6 cam, but since that motor makes more power than the FZ6 motor of the same year, I would bet they probably have a more aggressive lift pattern which would increase the time the intake valves are open on the intake stroke. This would mean a larger charge of air/fuel can get into the cylinder before being compressed and exploded. Along the same vein, the exhaust valves would probably need to be open a little longer as well.

 

[killernoodle]

I don't know for sure since I haven't looked up any information about the R6 cam, but since that motor makes more power than the FZ6 motor of the same year, I would bet they probably have a more aggressive lift pattern which would increase the time the intake valves are open on the intake stroke. This would mean a larger charge of air/fuel can get into the cylinder before being compressed and exploded. Along the same vein, the exhaust valves would probably need to be open a little longer as well.

I don't have the tools to measure the shape of the cam profile, but I can measure the absolute lift and compare them to the FZ6 cams. I'll be posting those measurements for you guys.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I don't have the tools to measure the shape of the cam profile, but I can measure the absolute lift and compare them to the FZ6 cams. I'll be posting those measurements for you guys.

Awesome. I figure the absolute lift will be slightly higher, but up to a certain point, more lift doesn't actually increase power.

That said, an increase in lift duration should make sense since the redline for the R6 motor is 1krpm higher than the FZ6. When you're super high in the rpms, the time the valve is open gets shorter and shorter. Eventually the engine is limited by the sheer fact that the valve isn't open long enough to get a proper air/fuel charge to ignite.

 

[FinalImpact]

I don't have the tools to measure the shape of the cam profile, but I can measure the absolute lift and compare them to the FZ6 cams. I'll be posting those measurements for you guys.

In order to set the cams properly you need a degree wheel fastened to the crankshaft and basic dial indicator to measure lift at the valve. Roughly speaking set the cams based upon degrees of crank rotation to begin or end a valve open/close event which is usually 1mm off the seat (0.0395").

Being off 0.008" (0.2032 mm) equates to about 1° at the crank.

Just so you can focus your time and efforts where needed, having forced induction means you don't need more lift or overlap. In this case, it will likely result in making it very hard to tune and return little benefits. In fact, unless this thing spools down low, the FZ cams may help retain some torque/ride-ability before boost comes into play. Just a thought...

So what are your plans for fuel management? Are you going to run a Wideband O2 sensor and software or let someone else attempt to tune it?

 

[killernoodle]

In order to set the cams properly you need a degree wheel fastened to the crankshaft and basic dial indicator to measure lift at the valve. Roughly speaking set the cams based upon degrees of crank rotation to begin or end a valve open/close event which is usually 1mm off the seat (0.0395").

Being off 0.008" (0.2032 mm) equates to about 1° at the crank.

Just so you can focus your time and efforts where needed, having forced induction means you don't need more lift and duration. In this case, it will likely result in making it very hard to tune and return little benefits. In fact, unless this thing spools down low, the FZ cams may help retain some torque/ride-ability before boost comes into play. Just a thought...

So what are your plans for fuel management? Are you going to run a Wideband O2 sensor and software or let someone else attempt to tune it?

The R6 really doesn't have much of a different midrange than the FZ6 (we are talking single digit differences in torque at the same rpm), but it has a double digit advantage high up in the rev range where it matters.

Generally speaking, turbos act as a force multiplier to engine power. If a cam upgrade nets you a 10hp gain on an NA engine, a turbo at 1 bar will give you another 10hp from that cam swap. So anything you can do to improve airflow in the engine gets amplified by the turbo. I've got a lot of turbo experience, so I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing.

Tuning will be done with PCV and a PLX map sensor. I'll be able to adjust fueling as needed.

 

[FZ09Bandit]

How much boost you plan on running?

 

[FinalImpact]

The R6 really doesn't have much of a different midrange than the FZ6 (we are talking single digit differences in torque at the same rpm), but it has a double digit advantage high up in the rev range where it matters.

Generally speaking, turbos act as a force multiplier to engine power. If a cam upgrade nets you a 10hp gain on an NA engine, a turbo at 1 bar will give you another 10hp from that cam swap. So anything you can do to improve airflow in the engine gets amplified by the turbo. I've got a lot of turbo experience, so I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing.

Tuning will be done with PCV and a PLX map sensor. I'll be able to adjust fueling as needed.

That may be true but its not apples to apples. Although boost may make up the difference in volume through the engine as the R6 benefits from larger TB's, larger primary exhaust, tiny bump in compression, better fueling (added injectors), and the ignition map. Not to mention it doesn't use waste spark or batch fire injection. As a whole, all items together give it that top end edge.

Hopefully the ignition map is not too aggressive for the task at hand. As for setting the cams, slotting the holes makes it possible to tweak the timing a small amount. Although some use aftermarket fasteners with a reduced shank to allow a small amount of rotation.

As you were and nice work on the triples adding the suitable fillers and stops! Looks very effective!

 

[Hellgate]

So I was a little drunk a couple nights ago and apparently bought a set of R6 cams off ebay for $60, so I guess I'll be measuring and installing those after all. I'll post a guide for that when I'm done.

Eh, don't feel too bad, I've bought motorcycles like that before!

 

[Hellgate]

I'm pretty sure the R6 cams will give you greater overlap so you can cram in MORE mixture.

 

[Motogiro]

There may also be lift differences and there is also a sensor wheel on the R6 cam assembly. I don't know if it's a direct drop in but I remember a thread on the swap you might read .... http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/36860-camshaft-profile-anyone-know-specs.html

 

[killernoodle]

There may also be lift differences and there is also a sensor wheel on the R6 cam assembly. I don't know if it's a direct drop in but I remember a thread on the swap you might read .... http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/36860-camshaft-profile-anyone-know-specs.html

This is great, thanks!

 

[FinalImpact]

There may also be lift differences and there is also a sensor wheel on the R6 cam assembly. I don't know if it's a direct drop in but I remember a thread on the swap you might read .... http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/36860-camshaft-profile-anyone-know-specs.html

Under boost you typically want to stay away from profiles w/a lot of overlap. i.e. use cams having a wider lobe separation to get more fill time. The reason being you blow all the charge right out the exhaust with too much overlap. Adding duration to the intake, allows more cylinder fill time while adding more more lift inherently increases overlap. So more lift is not always a win in boosted applications.

That thread I created years ago; I didn't see the R6 specs at a glance but recall the profile having more overlap and narrow lobe centers, thus it comes on late and hard once the scavenging effect of those cams come into play (N/A, not boosted)....

If boost goes as planned the cylinder pressures will test an aged gasket. You may want to consider a new head gasket and R6 studs to maintain the top ends integrity.

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm pretty sure the R6 cams will give you greater overlap so you can cram in MORE mixture.

And thats great for N/A (Natural Aspiration) but as stated, the charge is thrown out the exhaust as the "overlap" has both intake and exhaust valves open at the same time. In this case we want LESS OVERLAP and more intake duration.
- Best case is wasted charge.
- Worst case is a cylinder wash as folks increase pressure to make up for loss out the exhaust port.

********************************
EDIT:
Curiosity kills right. Using what we know and an online calculator we have the following:

=================================
FZ6 all Years
INTAKE: 5VX-12170-00-00 CAMSHAFT ASSY 1
I&E @ 1mm lift as measured by Marthy
Intake Lift: 7.5mm (0.295 in)
IVO: 45° BTDC (6 @ 1mm)
IVC: 78° ABDC (35 @ 1mm)
ILC: 106.5° // @1mm = ILC: 104.5° so some discrepancy
Duration: 303°

EXHAUST: 5VX-12180-00-00 CAMSHAFT ASSY 2
Exhaust Lift: 7.5mm (0.295 in)
EVO: 60° BBDC (40 @ 1mm)
EVC: 27° ATDC (5 @ 1mm)
ELC: 106.5°
Duration: 267°

I&E Overlap of 72°

=================================
2007 R6
Intake:
Lift: 8.33mm (0.327 in)
IVO: 39°BTDC
IVC: 65°ABDC
ILC: 103° ATDC
Duration: 284.00°

Exhaust:
Lift: 7.48mm (0.294 in)
EVO: 63°
EVC: 25°
ELC: 109°BTDC
Duration: 268.00°
Installed Centerline: 109° BTDC

I&E Overlap: 64.00°

=================================
The FZ Intake has more duration 303° vs R6 @ 284° (think fill the cylinder at low RPM), but brings overlap into the event.

FZ cams also have more overlap @ 72° vs R6 @ 64° (Who knew!) In short, if the FZ Intake cam is advanced to a safe point that doesn't make piston contact, its added duration could bring more fill time and reduce overlap so it may be the winner. IDK for certain.

Condense from this thread! http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/36860-camshaft-profile-anyone-know-specs-2.html using this calc: Camshaft Calculator - Wallace Racing

=================================
JJD952 Cam Timing

 

[killernoodle]

And thats great for N/A (Natural Aspiration) but as stated, the charge is thrown out the exhaust as the "overlap" has both intake and exhaust valves open at the same time. In this case we want LESS OVERLAP and more intake duration.
- Best case is wasted charge.
- Worst case is a cylinder wash as folks increase pressure to make up for loss out the exhaust port.

********************************
EDIT:
Curiosity kills right. Using what we know and an online calculator we have the following:

=================================
FZ6 all Years
INTAKE: 5VX-12170-00-00 CAMSHAFT ASSY 1
I&E @ 1mm lift as measured by Marthy
Intake Lift: 7.5mm (0.295 in)
IVO: 45° BTDC (6 @ 1mm)
IVC: 78° ABDC (35 @ 1mm)
ILC: 106.5° // @1mm = ILC: 104.5° so some discrepancy
Duration: 303°

EXHAUST: 5VX-12180-00-00 CAMSHAFT ASSY 2
Exhaust Lift: 7.5mm (0.295 in)
EVO: 60° BBDC (40 @ 1mm)
EVC: 27° ATDC (5 @ 1mm)
ELC: 106.5°
Duration: 267°

I&E Overlap of 72°

=================================
2007 R6
Intake:
Lift: 8.33mm (0.327 in)
IVO: 39°BTDC
IVC: 65°ABDC
ILC: 103° ATDC
Duration: 284.00°

Exhaust:
Lift: 7.48mm (0.294 in)
EVO: 63°
EVC: 25°
ELC: 109°BTDC
Duration: 268.00°
Installed Centerline: 109° BTDC

I&E Overlap: 64.00°

=================================
The FZ Intake has more duration 303° vs R6 @ 284° (think fill the cylinder at low RPM), but brings overlap into the event.

FZ cams also have more overlap @ 72° vs R6 @ 64° (Who knew!) In short, if the FZ Intake cam is advanced to a safe point that doesn't make piston contact, its added duration could bring more fill time and reduce overlap so it may be the winner. IDK for certain.

Condense from this thread! http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/36860-camshaft-profile-anyone-know-specs-2.html using this calc: Camshaft Calculator - Wallace Racing

=================================
JJD952 Cam Timing

What I'm getting from this is the FZ6 is a less lift but more duration. I think I can live with the FZ6 cams in there since boost will make up for the gains in the top end. So now I have some new cams to decorate my house with lol

Anywho, I updated the album showing the finished forks and triple trees. I think they look pretty good!

 

[ChanceCoats123]

What I'm getting from this is the FZ6 is a less lift but more duration. I think I can live with the FZ6 cams in there since boost will make up for the gains in the top end. So now I have some new cams to decorate my house with lol

Anywho, I updated the album showing the finished forks and triple trees. I think they look pretty good!

I actually took away the opposite from his post. I was thinking that the R6 cam would help more due to the lack of overlap. As he said before, the more boost you run (even 1psi over atmosphere) will lead to exhaust blowout during the overlap period. The increase in max intake lift should help to offset the shorter duration on the R6 cam especially when boosted. Just food for thought.

 

[killernoodle]

I actually took away the opposite from his post. I was thinking that the R6 cam would help more due to the lack of overlap. As he said before, the more boost you run (even 1psi over atmosphere) will lead to exhaust blowout during the overlap period. The increase in max intake lift should help to offset the shorter duration on the R6 cam especially when boosted. Just food for thought.

That's not true because turbos create exhaust pressure that would negate the boost pressure.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

That's not true because turbos create exhaust pressure that would negate the boost pressure.

I hadn't thought about that, and that's very true. Do you know if they cancel 1:1?

 

[killernoodle]

I hadn't thought about that, and that's very true. Do you know if they cancel 1:1?

An ideal pressure to backpressure ratio is as close to 1:1 boost:exhaust backpressure as possible, for engine efficiency reasons. Obviously pumping losses go way up when you have to constantly compress an exhaust manifold.

That being said, a single digit PSI difference in the chamber and exhaust in the miniscule amount of time between the overlap event and the minimal amount of valve lift during this time) means very little air would transfer in either direction anyway.

The dynamics of airflow through a cylinder, the head, the exhaust, and the intake can't be determined by simple pressure differentials, you have to have complicated models and real world testing to determine the way air flows around in a system like an engine.

 

[ozgurakman]

Choo choo!! We want that supercharged fazer how is going the project?

 

[Chaotic29]

Epic.:thumbup: