New (to me) bike burning lots of oil!

[caelanseth]

Ive had my FZ6 for a few weeks now and am loving it, but unfortunently I am taking it back to the dealer on Saturday. The engine seems to run great, but I am apparently burning an extremely unusual amount of oil. I have put about 1100 miles on the bike and have had to add about 1 1/2 quarts of oil After about every time I fill up I have had to add 1/4 quart. I am using Yamalube.

I can't detect any leaks anywhere. Also, only during startup do I see any bluish smoke, only for a few seconds. I can catch a faint smell of burning oil after I get done riding, but that has been the case with most bikes I have ridden. Anyone have any ideas? Should I try switching oil? I just hope the engine does not need to be torn down because of bad rings, seals, etcs. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Motogiro]

Unfortunately it sounds like a compression check should be done. My first thought is bad valve seals.

 

[FinalImpact]

Can you please go into detail about how you ride. . . i.e. what gears, what speeds, terrain, what gears your in when cruising, up hill, you name it....

I will hint and say engines which are lugged about (in a high gear laboring excessively) like say going up a hill in 6th gear at 2500 RPM loads the piston excessively which will unseat the rings and make them smoke/burn oil. << Not that this applies to you but so please don't take this personal - but its detuned race engine and it likes LOTS of RPM.

Also if its burning oil, fouled plugs make this worse. New spark plugs can help restore lost compression as the act of combustion seats the rings and cleans the chamber. Just some thoughts. Good Luck at the dealership!

 

[caelanseth]

I spend part of the time lugging it around; 3-6k rpm. I was attempting to see how good my mpg was so had been driving around town in 5th or 6th.

But, I have done quite a bit of hard riding; keeping the rpms up and blasting around corners and such. Also I commute to work and have been putting in quite a bit of 70+ mph highway miles, which puts the bike over 6k rpm.

The dealer is at first just going to check levels, look for leaks, etc on saturday so they probably won't be able to tell me much. I might pull a plug tonight and see if it is oily.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Do you know if the bike was laid down on its side for any lenth of time (knocked over)?

I ask in that IF some engine oil got past the pistons rings, but not enough for a hydralic lock/damage, it could have caused damage to the rings upon start up.

Usually (as Cliff mentions), blue smoke(oil) at start up is from oil seeeping past the valve seals overnight. Its possible oil is getting sucked, while underway, past those seals.

Besides compression tests/leak down, etc, just looking into the exhaust port (after removing the header) (and potentially the intake runner) will show excessive oil/carbon on the valve stem, in the runner. It'll help narrow down the cylinder(s).

My old KLR 250, with a leaky intake valve seal, had a very large goober of carbon build up on the INTAKE VALVE stem. Performance was extremly affected but it didn't burn oil to speak of (guess it leaked a bit over time, 64,000 miles).

I suspect you can count on replacing valve seals, I don't know of any shortcuts to replace them without removing the head..

 

[FinalImpact]

I suspect you can count on replacing valve seals, I don't know of any shortcuts to replace them without removing the head..

With the spark plugs and camshaft out, feed a small nylon rope into the plug hole, say about 16" or so and slowly turn crank to bring the cylinder to be worked on up to Top Dead Center (TDC). The rope keeps the valves seated so you can pop the keepers free.

Of course you can't inspect the guide or stem and if a special tool is required to insert the Valve Stem Seal, this may not work. Check before you begin. But the process works well for holding the valves in.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

With the spark plugs and camshaft out, feed a small nylon rope into the plug hole, say about 16" or so and slowly turn crank to bring the cylinder to be worked on up to Top Dead Center (TDC). The rope keeps the valves seated so you can pop the keepers free.

Of course you can't inspect the guide or stem and if a special tool is required to insert the Valve Stem Seal, this may not work. Check before you begin. But the process works well for holding the valves in.

I've used the "rope" method on weedeaters to lock up the engine when removing the clutch/flywheel which works very well.

Re the FZ, per the manual, it appears the stem seals just pushs over the head/valve guide. (hopefully the valve guides aren't worn, it would be a good time to put a dial gauge on the setm and check tolerances).

Obviously the spings need to be removed. The manual doesn't show the tool itself, just the top of it with access to the keepers. If you can find a tool to bolt to the head, lock up the cylinder with the rope, should be do-able.

Found this tool on a quick search: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/OTC-4573-Universal-Overhead-Compressor/product-reviews/B000F5HUUI/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1"]Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: OTC 4573 Universal Overhead Valve Spring Compressor[/ame]

One guy had to modify it slightly but used it on a 600cc motorcycle engine..

 

[darius]

Sorry to hear. It sounds like you got really screwed.

If you got it at a dealership, they probably knew and would be most happy to keep taking your money.

Who knows how much it will cost to fix and what else could still be wrong it it? Do you have the time for a bike with a bad engine? You might want to sell it and get another elsewhere. Plenty of FZ6s out there.

 

[caelanseth]

As an update, I tried switching to a synthetic oil to see if there would be a change. Nope. oil was 1/2 quart low after 150ish miles! I just got done pulling the 1st, 3rd, and 4th plugs (w/o removing tank or air filter, could not reach the 2nd) 1st and 4th looked good... the 3rd, well.. see for yourself.


(had to create a 2nd post below because I did not know how to embed.)

 

[caelanseth]

View attachment 49115

View attachment 49116


Here are the plugs I pulled.

Also, I have had the bike only for a few weeks. I have until July 22nd to return it if I want. Im also not sure if this would be a covered repair as I have a 3yr warranty.

 

[darius]

View attachment 49115

View attachment 49116


Here are the plugs I pulled.

Also, I have had the bike only for a few weeks. I have until July 22nd to return it if I want. Im also not sure if this would be a covered repair as I have a 3yr warranty.

You can take it back? Do so immediately! You do not want to keep this bike..

 

[caelanseth]

Ill have to confirm whether I can outright return it or not tomorrow. They do have a 30 day guarantee the all mechanical problems are covered within the first 30 days.

Also, I put in a new plug in the 3rd cylinder, and rode around. The weird thing is, I cant see any smoke out of the exhaust and the bike seems to run fantastic, even better with the new plug. no bogging, hard starts, etc. Although Im not sure how it wasnt running badly with that plug in it. Im having a blast, I will be very dissapointed if there is internal damage.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 on the above, RETURN IT ASAP and bring that fouled plug and any oil receipts you have.

A new plug will make it run better but it STILL GOING TO BURN OIL without FIXING the ISSUE.

You bought/paid for a 600cc bike, its actually (with just one cylinder down) a 450cc bike.

Threaten a law suit or what ever you need to do. Someone traded it in knowing it had issues (not unusual, but you DID get SCREWED)..

 

[darius]

Ill have to confirm whether I can outright return it or not tomorrow. They do have a 30 day guarantee the all mechanical problems are covered within the first 30 days.

Also, I put in a new plug in the 3rd cylinder, and rode around. The weird thing is, I cant see any smoke out of the exhaust and the bike seems to run fantastic, even better with the new plug. no bogging, hard starts, etc. Although Im not sure how it wasnt running badly with that plug in it. Im having a blast, I will be very dissapointed if there is internal damage.

You like the bike, but don't get attached to it. It's a massive safety issue.

The plugs will just foul again or burn through its oil before seizing permanently. Imagine those things happening on the highway!

If you fail to persuade the shop to take the bike back and instead let them make attempts to repair it, it could be a never-ending saga. Get shot of this one and find yourself a good bike without 2 smoke tendencies.

 

[FinalImpact]

Although we'll never know what this bike has been through in its life I I'm going to repeat things ive said before; for those who do not have the option of returning their bikes.

The ignition on these bikes are the weakest link as far letting us down while the rest is very well engineered and quite robust.
I find it unlikely that one hole lost its valve stem seal(s).
As stated above, you loose spark, you loose compression as combustion gases are required to fully seat the rings.

Thus, this bike likely has another fault with the ignition system and if corrected and ridden aggressively, would seat the rings and reduce its oil burning nature. But its a huge role of the dice in this case.. .. ..

The spark plug cap to wire is a weak link and it could compromise spark to the hole creating this condition. So I find it entirely possible that nothing is wrong mechanically. Of course someone could have dropped something into the intake or a previous plug could have dropped its porcelain damaging the compression rings - who knows... But putting around with no spark to one hole will make it consume oil and if a compression test is done, it will be lower that the others. Hell, for all we know this WHOLE THING WAS PUT IN MOTION FROM IMPROPER SPARK PLUG GAP!!!!! << This is POSSIBLE!!!

Check the spark plug caps, http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/48874-cure-bad-vibrations-spark-plug-caps.html ride it like you stole it (no more lugging it about) and the moment its not smooth throw another plug in it. A tank of sea foam might not hurt either....

Also, as ammunition when you take it back as it makes NO sense to keep it, all of the oil likely has damaged the CATs. From an emission stand point they may fail specification if tested as the oil burning super-heats the core and it cracks. Its why you don't see the blue smoke out the back is the CAT is doing its job. O2 sensor if so equipped may be plugged with sludge too.

Thats my thoughts - Good luck!
FWIW: I've owned oil burners that through proper tuning - correcting the ignition fault and they QUIT burning oil and ran a long life. As Criss said, most owners fail and run the engine out of oil along the way and show ends in a miserable blame game.

 

[iSteve]

I find it almost hard to believe this is due to a bad spark. First it's burning oil so it is sparking. Also no good oil ring is going to let by that much oil. Air compressors don't have gases and they don't leak, Also many cars shut down cylinders to save fuel with no bad effects.

Really it doesn't matter what is the cause. The shop sold a bad bike and it needs to be fixed or money refunded.

 

[FinalImpact]

I find it almost hard to believe this is due to a bad spark. First it's burning oil so it is sparking. Also no good oil ring is going to let by that much oil. Air compressors don't have gases and they don't leak, Also many cars shut down cylinders to save fuel with no bad effects.

Really it doesn't matter what is the cause. The shop sold a bad bike and it needs to be fixed or money refunded.

I mean no disrespect here but if i were "STUCK WITH this BIKE" (not able to return it) I'd follow my own advice show all the consequences of lost ignition and HOW IT CAN BE TURNED AROUND. In modern cars its the COP (Coil Over Plug) ignition coils that fail as low as 25,000 miles and they become oil burners.
If caught and corrected (spark restored), the engine can be saved. Besides AIR compressors do not have GAS PORTED PISTONS to seal the top ring. You're comparing totally different purposes. 12:xx:1 compression Race engine to cheap single stage compressor.

This is "true" =

"Really it doesn't matter what is the cause.

and its why I said this: "for those who do not have the option of returning their bikes", because others will see this thread later.

Anyway, we are at a Chicken and Egg story as to which came first! We know the engine is capable of 30, 40, 50,000 miles event free miles! The difference is how observant the owner is so as to notice a fault, correct and not let it do further damage.

"First it's burning oil so it is sparking." << how do you know this? Pushing oil out the exhaust from stem seal or rings DOES NOT mean its burning it. Nothing says there is spark here.

And this: "many cars shut down cylinders to save fuel with no bad effects", yes they do. But they do so by alternating the cylinder so as to NOT MISFIRE THE SAME CYLINDER REPEATEDLY. The ECM is very selective in which cylinder has it fuel cut and exhaust opened. Please do a little reading on this as they do not chop the same cylinder for 20 miles straight.

I'm just saying, the weakest link has been exposed (Fizzer Ignition system) and not corrected so here we stand.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Its a moot point wether its being burned or not.

Per the Op's FIRST post, he did see some blue smoke upon start up, so it is firing (at least some) to ignite/BURN the fuel AND OIL, (BLUE SMOKE)..

Oil is getting into the upper cylinder (ALOT OF OIL) somehow which it SHOULD NOT.

You can have all the spark you want but if a piston ring, valve seal, etc, has failed, (something has failed to allow oil to the top end, no question), new spark plugs/coils, the entire ignition system can be replaced, it STILL WILL NOT STOP OIL FROM GETTING into the top end..

 

[FinalImpact]

So based upon the high failure rate of yamaha rings and valves - its the one bad apple exception (possible) OR (open your minds), there is NOTHING wrong and something else caused this<< Yes, I forgot my sarcasma pills today!! :BLAA: haha!

Never mind how compression gases expand the top ring from INSIDE the ring to make it seal against the cylinder or any of that stuff and if its all gummed up, it doesn't seal until combustion pressure is restored which is far greater than static cranking pressure. I'm sure that stuff doesn't matter much less the glaze inside the cylinder from the rings not seating. Likely doesn't play a role in this either!

Also, the Synthetic oil would not be the best choice until the rings are fully seated again. And if it hasn't seen 9000 R's While firing on ALL FOUR, it needs too. Babying it is of no value and will only make it worse! Do some reading people.. .. .. Old myths and wives tails are hard to break!

 

[darius]

So based upon the high failure rate of yamaha rings and valves - its the one bad apple exception (possible) OR (open your minds), there is NOTHING wrong and something else caused this<< Yes, I forgot my sarcasma pills today!! :BLAA: haha!

Never mind how compression gases expand the top ring from INSIDE the ring to make it seal against the cylinder or any of that stuff and if its all gummed up, it doesn't seal until combustion pressure is restored which is far greater than static cranking pressure. I'm sure that stuff doesn't matter much less the glaze inside the cylinder from the rings not seating. Likely doesn't play a role in this either!

Also, the Synthetic oil would not be the best choice until the rings are fully seated again. And if it hasn't seen 9000 R's While firing on ALL FOUR, it needs too. Babying it is of no value and will only make it worse! Do some reading people.. .. .. Old myths and wives tails are hard to break!

Caelanseth, if you're stuck with the bike, drop the engine and ship it to Randy. He'll fix it right up w/ a bunch of pics for us.