I Lost The Love Today

[FinalImpact]

I think the underlying message with my original post was intended to be: Why do I feel like my bike fights me to ride it? A mistaken assumption is to think that I liked the Gixxer more because it was lighter and faster, which isn't true. My bike was in decent shape when I got it, a mildly used 08 with two PO's and 11,000km. Last owner in particular was meticulous and very mechanically inclined, and took good care of it save for a few things. Mechanically it's pretty sound, although I've invested a good deal of time and effort into smoothing things out across the board which has shown noticeable improvements. I completed a two year Millwright program and have landed an apprenticeship, and my mechanical skills are nothing to scoff at these days. I'm a bit timid at times, delving into something I don't have much experience with and risking that I could break my current favorite hobby and mode of transportation, but I've been successful so far and make sure that my work is as good as I can make it. It's why I ask so many questions, and try to double check over certain things - since it's all part of the learning process for me.

For overall rideability, the GSXR was so much better in every regard save for ride comfort. The entire bike as a whole operated better and worked with me, as opposed to against me. I shouldn't have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to fix all the things that are kind of wrong with it, because there shouldn't be issues to such a magnitude that I'd have to do sweeping, bike wide changes in order to fix them. I don't mind modding it, and tweaking things more to my liking - but we're talking about having to mod the bike to get it to a proper, smooth operable state. I'd never expect a Bandit 600 to have the same overall feel of a Gixxer, but I'd at least expect that they'd refine the bike enough so that it shifts smoothly, has a decent throttle balance, and a properly set up clutch that doesn't require an insane amount of strength to pull. Smooth operation isn't some new concept, or all that hard to do. Where exactly did all these quirks and various other issues come from exactly?

Did you see the post I put up. Between Forks, Shock, Fuel Controller, Bars, pegs mounted solid, header and a timing mod I have way less than $500 invested and everyone that's ridden said its amazing! You don't have to break the bank to fix it!

Its an 08 - Original Clutch Cable! Pulls like butter with no effort at all. I've personally seen 3 riding buddies with FZ6 that felt like you were bending REBAR! They were messed up, neglected and needed NEW CABLES! Mine has 25,000 miles and pulls easy and smooth! I lube it with engine oil 4x a year. Done.
Change tire profiles and DROP the forks allowing them to move about 6 - 10 mm up the triple. It will turn in very nicely!

Like I said, you fix the Ignition/Timing advance and it shifts 100X better. Rev match all day as it has improved throttle Response! Ask ChanceCoats... He did his and loves it. The other shortcomings are cured with proper fuel controller. I think the one you have DOES NOT ALLOW you to FIX the part of the map that needs addressed. Granted, the Early header REALLY HELPS TOO! Once CAT Free she sings...

Had I seen this project costing me $3000 atop the purchase price I would have sold it! But it was a cheap investment and it runs out good for a budget bike.

 

[Love@FirstRide]

^^^ I have. With R6S forks, Ohlins, rearsets set back plates, and ConvertiBars it was pretty good. All that said, that is about $2K in mods.

The bike needs a flash in a big way too, that is $450.

I punted and moved on.

OP, go to your Aprilia dealer and take a test ride on a TuonoV4 1100 Factory. Fast Bike called the best street bike, period.

My bike is pretty much stock, fluids flushed and premium only and new tires. I'm just too lucky we have the best roads with smooth curves out here in Colorado thanks to all the Marijuana tax money =D

I'd like to get my forks and exhaust upgraded but because of an accident not my fault, I don't want to put any more money in before it resolves.

 

[vinmansbrew]

Here is what I have been saying. We shouldn't have to spend money to fix these issues. They should have been fixed before the bike was ever released. Or at least fixed through model years, even that did not really happen. It is fine to do mods, IF you WANT to. Not because you HAVE to. THAT is what OP is trying to say as well, I think. Saying how much or how little money it cost, doesn't matter. For example, I put 1inch up/back risers on my bars. In this case, it was a mod I WANTED to do. I didn't HAVE to do it. Bad fuel delivery isn't something that should have to be fixed.

 

[payneib]

I've put a scottoiler, a fender extender and a stainless radiator guard on mine. I generally cruise around the 80mph mark through my moderately twisty routes. I've had none of the problems you're getting so het up about. Fueling is sorted by my right hand. The suspension is fine (might be considering a thicker oil in the front end next year: hardly a major mod). I've never had to fight this bike in to or out of any corners. I honestly believe that if you're taking this motorcycle to the edge of its performance window that often, you shouldn't be on a public road.

 

[FinalImpact]

Its an entry level bike that does A to B very well. Had they fixed the suspension at the factory that would have been awesome!
Im just saying look at the cost difference from bikes with improved suspension and fueling. Its not like your gonna pick one up for $3300!! So pay up, accept it, or fix it!
Even the 09 has crap suspension and bad fueling. It is a good platform to build on as the engine has more potential!

 

[vinmansbrew]

Maybe these issues are not found in the UK model. It is very possible that is the case. Many times, models sold in the US have significant differences than those sold in other countries. If you don't have the off/on fueling at low throttle, then I am betting this is the case. Maybe you just don't care enough to notice the issue? Hard to say, but many of the items talked about here are pretty easy to find on this forum. Check in the Nakeds section and you will read about how many think the stock windscreen is wretched.The throttle is discussed in great detail many times.

As I said, this may apply only to the North American bike.

 

[drumbum]

There are a lot of new bikes out there. I'm a bit scared to try them, because I know i'll get bit by the bike envy bug haha. But I will say without any reservation that the Fz6 fueling isn't spot on, it is a LITTLE snatchy (as someone pointed out it may be a US problem, all these emission things we have). And I think it's a downfall of nearly all yamaha bikes. Over the past 2 years I've been to 4 yamaha test drives and tried out a ton of their bikes, and they are all snatchy. I almost bought a R3 for my sister, its great fun to ride, but it still has the yamaha snatch that I think is dangerous for a beginner. And nothing I've tried tops the Fz09 (or even the fj09) in on/off snatch. it is an absolutely horrible feeling (even changing to the lower power settings, its still there), and I don't think I could ever buy another yamaha with those throttles. I've ridden lots of bikes (mainly kawasakis) with more power than the yamahas, some with less, but none of them have that unpredictable on/off fueling.

Now I just slip the clutch anytime I know I'm going from closed throttle to open, sure it's something extra to remember, another quirk, but it "helps" with the snatch. I remember I read in one thread about a guy choosing between the FJ-09 and the Versys1000 someone said "I want to learn how to ride A motorcycle not how to ride THIS ONE motorcycle" And this trick falls in that same category, it is a hack to ride THIS bike, not really to ride bikes in general

 

[payneib]

If you're doing low speed manoeuvres you should be holding a fairly constant rpm and using the clutch anyway. After that it's not difficult to stay down a gear and keep the throttle off of the stops, which you should be doing on a bike with such little torque as a matter of course. But then actually learning to ride is probably just a UK thing.

 

[raja777m]

If you're doing low speed manoeuvres you should be holding a fairly constant rpm and using the clutch anyway. After that it's not difficult to stay down a gear and keep the throttle off of the stops, which you should be doing on a bike with such little torque as a matter of course. But then actually learning to ride is probably just a UK thing.

Yes, using the clutch just does wonders, I was able to take a left turn at less than 10mph within the same lane on an R6 (which I had it for past 2 miles) and my friend who swapped with my FZ6 ran out of room on the second lane too.
I like balancing the bike without keeping the foot on the ground near the intersections, I take two cars length and go slow like less than 5 mph (when no traffic) and used to practice it a lot on my 100cc, back home.
Now I can manage the same on this beast too.

 

[payneib]

It's basic bike craft. The only time it wouldn't apply is on a big twin or similar, that has enough torque to keep chugging you along like a tractor engine (looking at you BMW).

 

[vinmansbrew]

Payneib, you seem to be attempting to be a jerk, maybe it's just the UK sense of humor, which can seem "different". Given the crashes I see with UK riders, I doubt your countrymen all are really that much better.
I may or may not have been riding as long as you, but 30 years isn't a short time either. I know how to use a clutch. You seem to think that because you don't suffer from bad low speed throttle response, that no one does. Sorry, but as it is more than just me, it can't be in all our heads. I KNOW how a throttle should feel, and I know the fz doesn't even come close to the smoothness of even a half assed adjusted carb.
Yamaha makes good bikes, but then they apparently decide to saddle them with poor throttles and poor suspension, at least in the US. They make the fx09 which is supposed to be awesome...except for suspension and throttle control. Such a shame.

Bottom line is that there are a bunch of budget bikes, it is the tweaks and finish that set the good ones apart. As I said before, the fz isn't a "bad" bike. It just has issues it should never have left the factory with.

 

[payneib]

If you know how to use a clutch why is the initial throttle response an issue? If you're constantly rolling on from closed throttle at speeds where it's an issue (ie, slow speeds) then that's not me being a jerk, that's you doing it wrong. Maybe it's just the typical American laziness, which can seem "different", so maybe you'd prefer a Honda DCT bike you can ride like a twist 'n' go. The initial throttle response "issue" is such a non entity on these bikes when ridden correctly they're even used as tutor bikes in bike schools. If a week one, day one bike student can cope with it, I'm sure a 30 year veteran should be able to cope with it just fine. In fact the most probable reason for that initial response is that they've had to tune the engine to give better response further up the range, where you should be anyway.

As a side note, it's not just Yamaha that scrimps on suspension and electronics when budgets are enforced. They're almost always the first areas to see quality affected by price point reductions.

 

[vinmansbrew]

No, I am still thinking you are a jerk, for pretty much no reason. Sure, I could burn the clutch to compensate for poor fuel mapping. Why not, since I would already have to pay to fix something that was wrong from the factory. Something that many others have also reported. You don't even seem to entertain the very possible idea that the fuel map we get in the US, is different than what you get in the UK. I don't see why that concept would be so difficult for you to understand. Look at the vast number of bikes available in Europe that never make it to US shores.

As for it being a problem, when did I say it makes riding hard? It is an annoyance, at best. It is, however, still an issue that should never have existed. I guess I use engine braking when turning into parking lots or drive ways. That means closing the throttle. I suppose I could ride like you apparently do and keep rpms up while burning my clutch and burning more fuel. Or maybe I should stick with carbs as my fueling method of choice.

As for items being affected by price points, I can find many bikes that would be in this category that do not have these issues. Sure, I expect fewer features. I would rather have a simpler bike, less to fail and less to worry about maintaining or fixing. I do want a bike that works as expected. But then being american, as many others here, I must be lazy. Nevermind in the past I have 70 - 80 hours a week, for years. Nope, being american = being lazy. All americans here got that? If payneib says it, it must be so.

 

[payneib]

Burning clutches out? Is that how one member here has managed over 100,000 miles on one clutch, professing to be a heavy clutch user? Where did I say I don't use engine breaking? But of course, we'll all just take your word for it, do you hear that guys? "Vinmansbrew" says it, so it must true. I've never said my bike doesn't have an abrupt roll on from closed throttle. I've just said I ride the thing properly. I don't see why that concept would be so difficult for you to understand.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll continue riding my bike with no issues, the way I was taught. You continue complaining about yours, wishing it's something it's not, wishing you'd bought something else.

 

[FinalImpact]

^^ your battle could be as simple as WHERE the bike is ridden!

Those who ride the canyons and lots of curves are more likely to notice the suspension and throttle chop issues. Those who commute and ride flat lands are far less likely to have issues as you have no need to be on and off the throttle loading and unloading the suspension.

 

[dbldutch02]

Wow, that went a bit sharp a lot fast!

Just to confirm, snatchy throttle is not limited to the US, we have it here in the UK too. Yes, you can ride round it, as payneib says, but I have to agree that I too would rather not have to.

As for the other issues raised, I think it's a lot to do with perception (maybe marketing?) Over here the fz6 is seen (and bought) as a standard style bike, jack of all trades. It appears that in the US it is seen as a semi-sports bike. That difference makes us expect very different things from the bike.

My personal take? It was built to budget, and the things they scrimped on are fixable, Im happy

 

[Zealot]

Bottom line is that there are a bunch of budget bikes, it is the tweaks and finish that set the good ones apart. As I said before, the fz isn't a "bad" bike. It just has issues it should never have left the factory with.

That right there is what I'm wondering. Like, how hard would it have been to go "The clutch pull is quite heavy compared to most bikes. Can we put on a lighter spring or improve the action at all?" , "The throttle is pretty choppy. Perhaps we should add a bit of fuel when moving and the throttle is closed in order to reduce the snap of re-wetting." , "The gearbox is clunky. Could we improve the action at all?"

Over the course of the bike being made from 2004-2009, that's five years, they revamped it into the S2 model but really didn't touch on any of the problem spots that the bike had. Let's take a look at say, the CBR600F. You had the F, F2, F3, F4, and following that the F4i. With each revamp, they improved things:

1987-1990 F1 - Original

1991-1994 F2 - Faster than the previous model.

1995-1998 F3 - Modified engine, ram air intake, cartridge forks. New engine heads allowed for an extra 5 horses on the 97/98 models of the F3, and the CDI (capacitor discharge ignition, I think) plus ram air revisions allowed for a smoother throttle curve to fix the jerkiness that existed on 95/96 year bikes.

1999-2000 F4 - Frame change from steel to alloys, meaning a lighter bike, and further tweaking of the F3 design.

2001 - 2006 F4i - Fuel injection to remove carburators and allow more precise fuel delivery and netted another 5HP. Furthermore, internal engine changes allowed for higher revving.

For each model of the bike, within no more than three years, they were updating and improving it. Over the course of five years with the FZ6, and the jump to the S2 model - why did so few of the changes affect rideability? A differently shaped fairing, headlight cowl coloring, and modified swingarm don't do much. Improved brakes and an O2 sensor are helpful, but despite the fact it was for emissions regulations, the addition of extra cats in the headers and a change in pipe bend don't help much. Neither did their supposed 'tweak' of the fueling. None of the changes really, truly addressed "Clutching", "Shifting", and "Throttle", the three major points that a number of riders complain about on the bike. A shame they didn't quite continue the FZ6 line the way it was going and refine that, instead choosing to make the FZ6R. That being said, I've heard good things about the FZ8 - but it'd kill me on insurance due to the change in displacement and the fact I live in Ontario! A damn shame the XJ6 Diversion wasn't brought out over here, although I can't say if it improved on known FZ6 problems - and the reduced HP puts it in line with the FZ6R.

Edit: Guess this sums up how it feels going from a stone to a bronze tool: http://www.600riders.com/forum/uk/16590-had-go-xj6-diversion-today.html

 

[Zealot]

Wow, that went a bit sharp a lot fast!

Heh, yeah. Couple commenters are getting a little bit snappy with each other over a difference of opinion. We're all friends here guys, please try and keep it civil!

Over here the fz6 is seen (and bought) as a standard style bike, jack of all trades. It appears that in the US it is seen as a semi-sports bike.

Different interpretations sounds about right. Would have been interesting to have seen some different engine tunings between the naked and half faired versions though, don't you think? Not that it really matters though. My last bike was a CBR250R and it rode and shifted like butter. It's not exactly a pricey bike, since it's aimed at beginners, and everything on there felt pretty refined despite skimping out on certain aspects.

 

[Hellgate]

American laziness? On other forums you'd be blasted out of the water over that comment, but here we are nice and polite.

I've ridden for about 35 years and owned/ridden lots of bikes. The stock throttle response of the FZ6 is THE worst I've ever experienced. I'm sorry that you've never experienced reostat like throttle. Obviously you've never experienced motorcycle nirvana. One should not have to over clutch and lead movements to get the bike to perform correctly.

I've got 5 bikes in my garage from 1982 thru 2013 that all have better throttle than the FZ6, three of which are Yamahas.

 

[Z3R0_zhift]

Well, everyone has their own preferences and expectations. If you can't live with it and start to compare prices, specs, functionality and all and all down the list. There's no end to your satisfaction on your bike. You can't expect a low end bike to perform a high performance clearance nor can you expect a high performance bike to save fuel weekly or monthly.

However, it does pays for you to research on the appropriate bike before buying one. Looking out for issues, problems and test rides will surely make out your mind which bike is appropriate for you. If you made a mistake and feel your bike is off, fix it and customise. If still not satisfied, then get a premium bike. I have never heard of a bike that performs everything in any way any style and save money. There are always comprises. Otherwise, there is no end to the black hole of satisfaction. Make do with what you have and suck it up. Everybody here loves riding, it's a passion not a prison. Just my thoughts.

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