I Lost The Love Today

[Zealot]

I went out today to Mosport, and partook in a number of bike related activities up to and including test rides. I rode a CTX700 (cruiser) at the Honda tent which was fun to try and go fast on, all the while scraping pegs hard through corners. Following this, I got onto a bike which had been catching my eye for some time - the GSXR600. And guys... I lost the love for my FZ6 today, to the point of disgust.

We all know the FZ6 as our quirky friend who can do it all, but what I witnessed today filled me with disappointment. The heavy clutch pull, the short bite point, the clunky/loud/notchy transmission, and the rather abrupt off/on nature of the throttle - none of this exists on the GSXR. I realize that one is a supersport designed to win races and as such, perfect functionality is to be expected, but when you're making a sport touring bike by modifying a similar supersport setup, how exactly do you lose the finesse to such an extent?! I don't expect perfect handling out of a bike that costs less money and is aimed at a different market, but I'd at least expect some sort of competency and ability to create a nice bike despite a smaller budget and lower production values. The main difference I noticed today was that I didn't have to fight the GSXR in order to ride it like I would have on my FZ6. While on my FZ6 I'd need to be mindful of a number of things in order to shift properly, the Gixxer left my mind clear and focused and I was truly relaxed whilst riding. There were none of these stupid idiosyncrasies to worry about, and the bike worked with me, not against me. The clutch had a well placed and nicely adjusted bite point, a feather light pull, and the throttle was not only a breeze to twist - but it was much more responsive and completely smooth when it came to minor inputs. Shifting barely required me to tap my toe on the shifter, and it almost silently popped up into every gear with nary a jolt. Power delivery across the board was strong but smooth, and came on in spades. Handling was great and the weight distribution was fantastic, which made handling feel like I was a part of the bike and not just a passenger. When I got off and went to grab my bike to go home, as soon as I touched my hands to the controls and tried to launch - it felt like somebody had gummed up my whole bike. All my rides out with friends on their various bikes, while I had fun, now I can only imagine how much fun they were actually having when they didn't have to worry about their bike behaving properly and just focus on the riding aspect.

How on earth did Yamaha ever let the FZ6 get off the production line with such shoddy operation? Why does out bike not have those same positive qualities?! I realize there's a big price difference between the two bikes at MSRP values, and as such the quality will vary (not to mention brand new vs used), but the differences that I saw today were astounding. What I feel like I've gotten 'out of the box' is disgusting and it makes me feel in all honesty, cheated. The amount of money I've been investing into tools and consumables in order to smooth out my experience on this bike when I could have simply put the money towards something that works properly out of the box left me feeling disappointed. For how much work I've put into this bike to try and fix it up, I'm disappointed and feeling very hurt that under no circumstance will I ever be able to get that smooth operation that I realistically should have. I've put in a lot of work in every way I can think of, and while it's helped, there's still a huge difference. I feel like I picked one of the best disguised short straws, and now that I've had a proper taste of what quality is... I don't know how I'm going to enjoy this bike anymore. While the value of the skills I've learned and riding ability I developed along the way through mastering this bike hasn't been lost on me, I've been living in some fools paradise. I tried to believe in the "I love this bike!" hype, but it's not working for me anymore guys. I can't lie to myself like that after today.

While I'm not jumping ship just yet, it's a big consideration for when I've got the money to do so. I've been thoroughly enjoying this community so far, but my experience today has left me feeling upset for a number of reasons. Feels like I just lost something I loved.

No, I'm not looking for straight crotch rocket speed - it was the ease of use and overall feel of the bike that I enjoyed!

 

[VEGASRIDER]

That's why I don't like test rides, makes our bikes so inferior. But remember, the OTD price brand new was a bargain. $7000 and I have over 100k miles so I have gotten my money's worth. Plus the FZ will outperform some of the bikes you rode in other categories. Fuel range, comfort level riding great distances, better visibility in traffic and so on, I can come with just as many pros as your cons for the bikes you just tested.

 

[Zealot]

Of course out bike will beat out others. I was riding today just for fun, but was wishing I'd been taking something else home with me. Of course the FZ6 will outperform other bikes in various categories, but what I don't understand is when you try to justify the bike as having sport qualities, but compared to an actual sportbike it ends up sorely lacking when it comes to rideability and ease of use. Like I said, when I was on the Gixxer today it felt like the bike instinctively knew what I wanted to do, and did it without a hassle. I didn't have to fight with it at all - and it felt way more natural. As many pros as there are, why are we stuck with something that in comparison has such awful handling and riding characteristics? What is the excuse for the various inputs being crappy across the board - not just one?

 

[payneib]

First thing:

FZ6 isn't a sport tourer. It's a modern standard. It's in a class of bikes designed for getting from A to B. Why doesn't a Ford Mondeo drive like a sports car? Because it isn't one. Why doesn't an FZ6 ride like a sports bike? Because it isn't one.

Secondly:

I'd love to see a GSXR do nearly 200 miles to a tank, with a rider that can still use his knees at the end and doesn't need a chiropractor to sort out their back.

 

[erburtt]

I know when I was searching for a bike to buy I specifically looked for an FZ6 because of ts versatility. It sounds like you want to do one thing and that's ride fast. There's no problem with that but when you want something to commute on, do touring trips, go out for fun twisty sporty rides, etc. etc. the FZ6 fits the bill. A GSXR600 would really only do one of those things well.

I'm not all that picky about bikes as long as they have ample power (the one thing that makes me dislike some of the bikes I've test ridden). I learn to work with whatever quirks each bike has. The FZ6's short friction point means I get to shift faster, the clutch pull I got used to within a week, I can ride 800 km in a day with loads of twisty roads and my forearms never feel tired or fatigued. I can say for sure after about an hour on a GSXR I'd be pining to get off with a sore back, knees, and butt, and I'm an in shape 25 year old. For sure our bike has some crappy elements, in my mind these are mostly surrounding the fuel delivery, but unless I'm riding in a very spirited manor (hovering between 8 and 10 thousand into and out of corners) I don't notice it all that much, and to be honest it makes me a better rider learning proper throttle control which will only make whatever bike I get next that much smoother.

I've ridden with people on real sport bikes and left them in the dust when we got into the corners, its all about the rider and what you can do on the bike. I honestly don't think its really lacking that much when you want to ride it fast.

The one other thing I can say is that the Suzuki's I've experienced have had poor build quality compared to Yamaha, fit and finish stuff just seems better with Yamaha.

 

[vinmansbrew]

I get where he is coming from. There are some thing on this bike that just don't measure up, sport bike or not. First off, throttle response is poor. This is an issue no matter what the bike is designed for. I have a 2006 and it is not like FI was some new thing. The on/off response at low throttle shouldn't be nearly as abrupt as it is. Sure, it can be smoothed out some, but the fact is you shouldn't have to do that. Then the throttle gets so touchy that just tightening or relaxing the muscles in your hand can cause your speed to change. FYI Yamaha, you have a large travel range for the grip, use it. You dont need 80% of your throttle in 1 inch of travel.

How about front suspension. It is common for bikes to have some sort of adjustment. Maybe not so much in 2004, but still, the forks could have been sorted better to cope with the high weight of the fairing they stuck the bike with. Taking that fairing off and going naked made a huge difference on how the front end handles. I was shocked at how much the fairing weighed when I took it off. Sure, it was lighter than the old Vetter on my cb was, but not by a whole lot, surprisingly.

The rear brake is another point, though not a huge 1. I am fine with it not being disk, a drum works perfectly fine on the street. What I have an issue with is the lack of feel through the lever. It is so numb feeling that you really need to learn how far you can push the lever before it locks. Never had that on any of my other bikes. All my other rides I could just push and feel how it is acting, not so with the fz. The front brakes are not overly sensitive either, but are easier to work with.

The seat also kinda stinks. Nothing like ramming your nuts against the tank because the seat has a forward angle. Sure, you can redo it or get a different seat, but you shouldn't have to.

Finally, the mileage isn't what I was expecting it to be. It can get about 44mpg or so with a combination of town/interstate riding. So, about average, certainly no better than a decently tuned carb bike. I guess with how people spout the values of FI, I figured it might be better than that with fairly conservative riding.

All this said, it is not a horrible bike. It runs well. The brakes do work well, once you get used to them. It does lean fairly decent. No it isn't a sportbike, but is still faster than virtually any cruiser. I like the undertail exhaust, even if the muffler cover could use some cosmetic help. Going naked help immensely with wind buffeting on the interstate. Ultimately, though, there isn't anything that really makes the bike stand out, and no, the crossplane engine really isn't a big deal, not on the street really. Honestly, if I knew of all the things with this bike before I bought it, I probably would have kept looking. As I said, it's not a bad bike, but if and when I sell it, I probably won't have a tear in my eye.

 

[FinalImpact]

So go pick up a gxr for 3,300.... Good luck!

For me its about setting the bike up to fit your style which partially holds true for all bikes...

In 2011 I never knew our path other than the I knew on my first ride the forks did not meet my needs. Once those improved, then it was clear the rear shock needed to better match the fronts damping. From there it was all an experiment that paid off.
EFI issue easily solved - done! Fuel controller FTW!
Throttle Response - solved; exhaust, adv ignition.
Note - throttle response aids in smooth shifts!
Clutch - lube is the answer
Ride quality is bad. FIX the suspension! $300 and its night and day!
Turn in, nimble, flickable, responsive, predictable - solved!
Suspension work is cheap compared to monthly payments on a new bike. Your choice!

So, Other than the seat not being comfortable on long rides, im pretty sure I removed every obstacle on the bike that detoured me from enjoying it.
The key being: make it physicaly fit me
Improve the suspension
Improve the throttle response

You folks with S1s have a leg up as the S2 owners as the OEM header kills throttle response. Advance the ignition, add a fuel controller with a proper map and the bike is totally transformed!

Riding with Mxgolf yesterday and I needed a swift pass - gear down, pin it, and damned if the nose didnt come up ss I passed some HDs! Im saying a proper map and attention to detail and the 600 comes alive! With minimal investment!

Obviously it took some effort on my part and thats not for everyone, but for what it can do, i could give crap about a clunk when dropped into gear!

 

[erburtt]

The rear brake is another point, though not a huge 1. I am fine with it not being disk, a drum works perfectly fine on the street. What I have an issue with is the lack of feel through the lever. It is so numb feeling that you really need to learn how far you can push the lever before it locks. Never had that on any of my other bikes. All my other rides I could just push and feel how it is acting, not so with the fz. The front brakes are not overly sensitive either, but are easier to work with.



Finally, the mileage isn't what I was expecting it to be. It can get about 44mpg or so with a combination of town/interstate riding. So, about average, certainly no better than a decently tuned carb bike. I guess with how people spout the values of FI, I figured it might be better than that with fairly conservative riding.

All this said, it is not a horrible bike. It runs well. The brakes do work well, once you get used to them. It does lean fairly decent. No it isn't a sportbike, but is still faster than virtually any cruiser. I like the undertail exhaust, even if the muffler cover could use some cosmetic help. Going naked help immensely with wind buffeting on the interstate. Ultimately, though, there isn't anything that really makes the bike stand out, and no, the crossplane engine really isn't a big deal, not on the street really. Honestly, if I knew of all the things with this bike before I bought it, I probably would have kept looking. As I said, it's not a bad bike, but if and when I sell it, I probably won't have a tear in my eye.

I have some issues with some of the other things you said... But I'll keep it short, Drum Brakes? I dont know what happened to your bike but the FZ6 certainly has a rear disk... and a crossplane engine? Did someone do a 2009 R1 engine swap on your bike?

 

[raja777m]

Drum Brakes? I dont know what happened to your bike but the FZ6 certainly has a rear disk...

I guess he mentioned he doesn't need a disk for rear, he is happy with the drum.

 

[vinmansbrew]

Yes, I didn't state things well at all. How about I give it a second go. For a disk brake, the fz has a terrible feel on the rear brake. You don't really feel a linear increase as you push down the pedal. It just feels hard while not getting much, then you keep pushing with no real change in feel till it suddenly locks. It's a good thing I am well versed in handling a locked rear tire. My first bike didn't have a working front brake, only rear. I learned real well how to control slides. This lack of feedback surprised me. All my previous bikes had drum brakes and I could easily set them up and get excellent feedback. Still I always heard how disks are superior to drums. When it comes to the front, absolutely. I'm not sold on the rear though. Now a different bike might have better feel and I would change my mind. Judging by the fz though, the disk on the rear doesn't stack up to the hype.

Final, the point is a person should NOT have to add anything to smooth out fuel delivery. Snatchy fueling directly affects riding, indeed if it were bad enough, it would be dangerous. No add-on controller should ever be needed to fix fueling issues. Sure, if you want to modify it to a personal preference, THAT is different.
The suspension I get, to an extent. I don't expect ohlins on both ends, not on a budget bike. Still, even a simple preload should have been on the front, or they should have compensated better for the fairing weight. A stronger spring wouldn't have cost them more. The rear shock, otoh, feels to sprung. It came set on preload 3 and that caused bumps to hit like hell. I actually backed it off to 1 and back to 2 for a happy medium. I am not a light guy either. So, while I get a lower cost suspension, I feel they could have done better with what we did get. As I said, the difference with and without the fairing is substantial.

I understand making changes for the sake of personal flair. Motorcycles are the perfect canvas for that. A person shouldn't have to fix design errors though. Especially when the errors on this bike are pretty easy to fix. A better fuel map might have taken a bit more time, but in the long run would have been pennies. Better sorted springs wouldn't have changed the cost any. Really, they could have put r6 forks on with minor changes and it would not have cost much more.
I wont get started on how much of a screw up I think the fairing design is.
I get it, you want to beat the fz drum, and that's perfectly fine, there is nothing wrong with that. These are issues in my mind that should not exist if Yamaha had paid proper attention to this bike. To me, it was like they made a budget bike with the though of "if you want better, then buy a sportbike". I beat my own drums, too.

 

[FinalImpact]

^^ rear brake -
Exactly why there is little need for SS rear brake line as it removes yet another layer of feeling (REAR ONLY).

Find a softer pad and it may offer better feel at the cost of reduced life cycle.

 

[vinmansbrew]

That is entirely possible. A softer pad may help, probably organic. Organics are better on disk wear, too. I'd never put a braided line on the rear brake. Rather useless really since you can only apply so much force with the rear anyways, and the stock line will deliver that, and more.

Let me add though that the seating position of the fz beats the pants off a sport bike, imo. Hunched over a tank is not my idea of a good ride.

 

[payneib]

To compare like for like you'd need to be comparing the R6 to the GSXR. You wouldn't expect the Bandit 600 to be as good as the GSXR after all.

 

[FZ6_WVU]

Blasphemy!! Sacrilege!! [emoji22][emoji22]




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hellgate]

Sounds like an FZ9 might be a better option. A later model as the early ones, in Yamaha traditional, have terrible fueling and suspension.

Face it, the FZ6 was a price point bike. With that one gets compromises.

 

[raja777m]

Sounds like an FZ9 might be a better option. A later model as the early ones, in Yamaha traditional, have terrible fueling and suspension.

Face it, the FZ6 was a price point bike. With that one gets compromises.

Well, Suzuki's tag like is "No Compromise..!"

 

[raja777m]

Well, I swapped with my friend's 05R6 for a few miles (next time, will take it to devil's whip or Us 181 road, a smaller version of Cherohala Skyway), it is smooth, nice braking, horrible idea for a street bike (obviously), not a daily commuter, very nice power all over the throttle (duh!), lighter than FZ6.
The most noticeable thing is, the seat is so comfy as there is no damn exhaust under my butt.
It was my dream as a child-teenager (may be 10-20 yrs old) to own a bike which has exhaust under the seat, which sometimes I regret, with my stock exhaust tips. It is a great idea to improve ground clearance. May be I'll ride someone else's FZ6 with after market tips, as there won't be any resistance of the air to go out or someone here can tell me whether they understand what I'm talking about.

No bike is perfect, Yamaha is cheap at the price point and an all-rounder for that price; Suzuki's are fast; Kawasaki's have strong engines; Honda are dependable and little bit of everything mentioned above, with compromise in style maybe.
moreover you're comparing your S1 or S2 to a 2014/15 model, did you tried FZ09 or FZ07? spoiler alert: suspension still sucks (I didn't ride, but heard a lot). you may hate your fz6 after riding FZ07 or 09, as they are light weight and more powerful.

 

[Zealot]

I think the underlying message with my original post was intended to be: Why do I feel like my bike fights me to ride it? A mistaken assumption is to think that I liked the Gixxer more because it was lighter and faster, which isn't true. My bike was in decent shape when I got it, a mildly used 08 with two PO's and 11,000km. Last owner in particular was meticulous and very mechanically inclined, and took good care of it save for a few things. Mechanically it's pretty sound, although I've invested a good deal of time and effort into smoothing things out across the board which has shown noticeable improvements. I completed a two year Millwright program and have landed an apprenticeship, and my mechanical skills are nothing to scoff at these days. I'm a bit timid at times, delving into something I don't have much experience with and risking that I could break my current favorite hobby and mode of transportation, but I've been successful so far and make sure that my work is as good as I can make it. It's why I ask so many questions, and try to double check over certain things - since it's all part of the learning process for me.

For overall rideability, the GSXR was so much better in every regard save for ride comfort. The entire bike as a whole operated better and worked with me, as opposed to against me. I shouldn't have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to fix all the things that are kind of wrong with it, because there shouldn't be issues to such a magnitude that I'd have to do sweeping, bike wide changes in order to fix them. I don't mind modding it, and tweaking things more to my liking - but we're talking about having to mod the bike to get it to a proper, smooth operable state. I'd never expect a Bandit 600 to have the same overall feel of a Gixxer, but I'd at least expect that they'd refine the bike enough so that it shifts smoothly, has a decent throttle balance, and a properly set up clutch that doesn't require an insane amount of strength to pull. Smooth operation isn't some new concept, or all that hard to do. Where exactly did all these quirks and various other issues come from exactly?

 

[Love@FirstRide]

I still don't understand you when you say the bike is fighting you. I feel like the FZ outscales my limits. I've touched knee and hand going 70 but there is room for more with fresh tires. I just get my @ss over on the seat and lean while keeping her as straight as possible.

Would i like to be able to bring the front end up in later 2ed or 3rd, Yeah. But should i be doing that anyways NO lol

i've riden my friends 98 CBR f3 and the fz was much better in everything but acceleration. His was more, consistent is the word maybe. It felt like more of a toy though, the handle bars make a huge difference.

Has anyone tried clip on handlebars to the forks like sport bikes have them set up? It was fun on the cbr but no way comfortable

 

[Hellgate]

^^^ I have. With R6S forks, Ohlins, rearsets set back plates, and ConvertiBars it was pretty good. All that said, that is about $2K in mods.

The bike needs a flash in a big way too, that is $450.

I punted and moved on.

OP, go to your Aprilia dealer and take a test ride on a TuonoV4 1100 Factory. Fast Bike called the best street bike, period.