cant start engine after winter & timing change changin

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Cam timing can be off BUT it can still build compression.

IE, if the crank is off from the cams, the IGNITION PICK UP MODULE (right there in the case) will fire the plugs as normal WITH THE CRANKSHAFT.

if the cams are off, the plugs are firing at the wrong time (in relation to the "OFF" cams.)...


I would be focusing on what was recently done to the bike.

 

[MichaelFZ6]

Ok guys here I am but with no good news

1. we checked cams position, its ok. here are some photos

2. we fully charged battery
3. we changed fuel to new one
4. we got out spark plugs #2 and #3. they were wet so we dryed them. plug gap is ok.
so here is the starting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnJwooH1FHA&feature=youtu.be
basically everything is the same but starter, it goes faster

after that we got out spark #4 and checked the flame during starting, it does a good spark.

so we have a spark and a fuel. really 0 idea what to do next

 

[MichaelFZ6]

It looks like exhaust cam is a little bit off mark. If its true, how bad it is? Will the engine not start?

Also I tried to start it with 100% throttle and then usual start. Nothing changed.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Both cams don't like the marks are NOT dead even with the head surface (pic's 3 & 4).

Both look a knats hair high. ****Putting one more link inbetween the cams should bring them even with the head (and of course the crank on the mark)

I believe (someone posted) you can move the chain / teeth W/O pulling the cams if you take the tension off the rear, loose run.

I can't confirm that. As the picture you posted earlier from the manual shows, those are must be dead nuts on. AND thats with NO SLACK IN THE FRONT or TOP RUN

 

[FinalImpact]

One full tooth would put them way off...

Like I said, put some new plugs in it or dry those with propane torch... Heat the thread body to 120/145°C until they smoke and allow to air cool if NEW is not an option.

 

[motojoe122]

Both cams don't like the marks are NOT dead even with the head surface (pic's 3 & 4).

Both look a knats hair high. ****Putting one more link inbetween the cams should bring them even with the head (and of course the crank on the mark)

I believe (someone posted) you can move the chain / teeth W/O pulling the cams if you take the tension off the rear, loose run.

I can't confirm that. As the picture you posted earlier from the manual shows, those are must be dead nuts on. AND thats with NO SLACK IN THE FRONT or TOP RUN

It was probably me, Scott. If you remove the cct and the exhaust side chain guide, you can pull the slack out of the chain and rotate the cams back where they need to be. Do you remember that fiasco now?[emoji16]

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It was probably me, Scott. If you remove the cct and the exhaust side chain guide, you can pull the slack out of the chain and rotate the cams back where they need to be. Do you remember that fiasco now?[emoji16]

Too many fiasco's to remember Joe!!

But I remembered that someone (you) did it!!

That certainly makes life a bit easier for the predicament he's in!!

Beats pulling a cam, etc, a definite great shortcut!!

 

[MichaelFZ6]

>I can't confirm that. As the picture you posted earlier from the manual shows, those are must be dead nuts on. AND thats with NO SLACK IN THE FRONT or TOP RUN
I dont really understand how it can influence the work of engine. So exhaust valve will be opened slightly sooner or later - why it permits to start the engine? I will move them because there is nothing I can do else, Just dont get it.
There is no slack at chain, the tensioner works well.

>Like I said, put some new plugs in it or dry those with propane torch... Heat the thread body to 120/145°C until they smoke and allow to air cool if NEW is not an option.
My buddy changed plugs, no effect.

> If you remove the cct and the exhaust side chain guide, you can pull the slack out of the chain and rotate the cams back where they need to be.
Thanks!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Quote: "I dont really understand how it can influence the work of engine. So exhaust valve will be opened slightly sooner or later - why it permits to start the engine? I will move them because there is nothing I can do else, Just dont get it".


Timing is EVERYTHING..

.With cams off, it can get fuel, BUT the engine is firing the plugs at the wrong time, it WON'T RUN.

Its that simple..

Ignore the basic's, your chasing your tail...

(New plugs, hot plugs, your wasting your time)

 

[FinalImpact]

I disagree. It appears to be in time. Its something else.

Do a compression test. Rent a gauge if need be. There is no point in taking it apart if it has compression!

I've asked plenty of questions and have answers to a few.
If it builds compression to say 190 230 PSI it will run from a mechanical "pump" point of view.

If the plugs will burn what ever fuel it has...

As stated; dry plugs and add fuel manually into the TB openings. A splash in all four. This solves ONE of the three mysteries... If it fires off we know IT can run.
If it has compression, and we KNOW its either spark or fuel. Adding fuel solves that part of the equation IF THE PLUGS ARE CAPABLE OF LIGHTING THE MIXTURE...

Plenty of times a perfectly healthy engine gets denied the ability to run do to slow cranking speeds. The plugs get wet and here we are.

Did you unplug the coils power and ground wires? Y/N?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I suspect a shop will be getting it running at this point...

 

[MichaelFZ6]

ok guys! some news.
1. we realigned cams. here is before pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet here is after pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet so the intake cam was ok and the exhaust cam was off
2. I broke a bolt, one of 20 by which cams are being held in the engine. It came out nicely for some reason but it will take some time to craft/buy a new one. So no video of starting engine today.
3. answering some questions:
>.With cams off, it can get fuel, BUT the engine is firing the plugs at the wrong time, it WON'T RUN.
one cam was off, but it was an intake one. so the engine will fire plug at correct time - on top of TDC. Thats we dont get, why it does not even try to do it.

>Do a compression test. Rent a gauge if need be. There is no point in taking it apart if it has compression!
I believe it has compression. When I rotate crank by hand its really hard to turn it at TDC mark and engine makes some puffing noise but after TDC piston goes down and its easy to rotate. My brother said that I'm building compression by hand thats why its so hard.

>As stated; dry plugs and add fuel manually into the TB openings. A splash in all four. This solves ONE of the three mysteries... If it fires off we know IT can run.
If it has compression, and we KNOW its either spark or fuel. Adding fuel solves that part of the equation IF THE PLUGS ARE CAPABLE OF LIGHTING THE MIXTURE...
Last time we got out plug #2 and #3, they were wet and we dryed them. Did not spash a fuel there though.
My friend with the same problem tried new sparks, old sparks, dried new and old ones - did not help.

>Did you unplug the coils power and ground wires? Y/N?
You mean that cylinder looking things that are hosted on the battery and are wired to the plugs? If its that than no, we just unscrew them from the battery and let them hang. Also we checked the spark using some old plug - there is a spark.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

With the cams correct now (I assume the crankshaft mark is dead on too WITH the cams) and the CCT installed(chain tight).

Again, if the crank is off the mark, the pick up, (spark) sensor IS what sends the signal to fire the plugs. I really don't see how you can tell the spark is off if the cam chain is NOW dead on with all three marks...??

I would, (if you haven't already) just double check the marks rotating the engine forward(clockwise) just to make sure everything stays spot on.

I'm assuming you checked valve clearances, and their in spec. With that said, you can bolt up the top end (once you replace your broken cam retainer bolt).

If #2 and #3 plugs are staying wet I suspect your not getting spark there.


Now that the cams are on, I would assemble, at least to the point of leaving the tank up.

Make sure all grounds are on, assembled normally, then start checking spark...

Once we get some updated answers, we can go from there..

 

[MichaelFZ6]

Ok I should have included crank photo, but was easier to set and harder to photo. But here it is Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

>I would, (if you haven't already) just double check the marks rotating the engine forward(clockwise) just to make sure everything stays spot on.
I will definitely do that after we get last (broken) bolt in place.

>I'm assuming you checked valve clearances, and their in spec.
Yep we did that, only 2 of them from exhaust side were off. One was off for 0.05 mm, another for 0.1 mm. I changed these small things to a corresponding ones. I will re-check them.

>Make sure all grounds are on, assembled normally, then start checking spark...
Where are the grounds? I dont remember disconnecting any wires or plugs. There are only 2 of them on the top of the battery - starter relay and some thick wire connected with a 8-size bolt.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Looks like all your marks are now on. Just to make sure, the chain is tight (in the photos), on the FRONT RUN AND THE TOP RUN, with all slack at the rear, correct?

Just make sure everything you unbolted is bolted back up. The coils likely ground to the frame when bolted down.

Update; as noted below, the coils are NOT grounded to the frame(my boo)... Cliff, is there another ground for the coils??


You may very well have a bad coil, but as noted earlier, get the basic's sorted first...

 

[MichaelFZ6]

>Looks like all your marks are now on. Just to make sure, the chain is tight (in the photos), on the FRONT RUN AND THE TOP RUN, with all slack at the rear, correct?
I dont think there is any slack actually, its very tight in any place.

>The coils likely ground to the frame when bolted down.
I will check the connection between coil and frame! I wonder why I did not think about it before

 

[Motogiro]

>Looks like all your marks are now on. Just to make sure, the chain is tight (in the photos), on the FRONT RUN AND THE TOP RUN, with all slack at the rear, correct?
I dont think there is any slack actually, its very tight in any place.

>The coils likely ground to the frame when bolted down.
I will check the connection between coil and frame! I wonder why I did not think about it before

Please note: The coils may be bolted to the frame but they are not electrically grounded.

 

[FinalImpact]

ECU is the coil(s) ground, it is what does the switching to create spark that arrives when needed. Its circuitry opens and closes a path to ground to create current draw and spark at the plugs... Also note thst Battery power is through run stop switch... A defective R/S switch and your coils are off line.


In another thread all of this was addressed so this may be out of context but still applicable.

Thread is: Timing Help........ Please

Have you rotated it through 720° and STOPPED the Crank on the T - Case line and what do the cams marks look like then? DO THIS BY HAND with a short ratchet or tiny breaker bar JUST IN CASE THE VALVES HIT the pistons!!! Obviously DO NOT Rotate ANY MORE if it hits and binds. Stop and back up or take the cams out and start over.
In the perfect world they do align better than that, however, it could be chain stretch. How many miles on this engine?

In this photo my trigger wheel is advanced from 5.0° stock to 11.5° and it looks like this:

Advanced 6.5° makes it look like this (Rotates clockwise ~0.105" on the outer edge)

Here I used a dial indicator to determine TOP DEAD CENTER, meaning the mark should align but it doesn't because my trigger wheel is slotted and advanced.

Rotate it through 720° and check the CAMS WHEN the CRANK is SPOT on the Case Split....

Photos of timing marks at distant angles make them very hard to interpret. Glad you saw it was off.

 

[FinalImpact]

This thread
Timing Help........ Please!

 

[MichaelFZ6]

ok guys some update.
here is the video of starting - everything is the same https://youtu.be/KSJbgI77j6c

we have done
1. checked valve clearences on reinstalled cams - ok
2. checked marks on cams/crank after rotating crank several times to find spots for clearence check - ok
3. got out all plugs. 2 of them were little wet (really a little), 2 of them were dry. sorry, I dont remember which ones. plug gap is ok. dried all plugs.
4. while reassembling the battery was on charge but I was sure its ok.

I'm starting to think that something is wrong with the fuel system. Will look through manual and the internet for that. I dont think there is a point to disassemble the engine again.