Breaking in a curve? NO?

[reiobard]

do yourself a favor and read "Twist of the Wrist" he does an excellent job at explaining all of this AND other things that you haven't even thought to worry about yet

If you need it shoot me a PM with your e-mail and i can let you "Borrow" the PDF for it.

 

[mstewar1]

The only thing of use that I can add, that I didn't see explicitly stated, is to bear in mind that when a two wheeled vehicle is turning and the brakes are applied, the vehicle will want to "stand up", i.e. it will want to stop turning. There's some kind of physics explanation for it.

And I heartily agree with the notion of getting folks onto small dirt bikes and have them get some free-form, "play" time (in a safe, geared-up way) so that they can really get a feel for what a moto wants to do at its limits of lean and adhesion.

You can get close to this sort of training on a bicycle. Notice I said "close", I understand there's a vast amount of difference in vehicle weight, etc. But still, I'm talking about getting an understanding for the notions of leaning, looking through corners, eliminating target fixation, feathering brakes, feeling how a "bike" will, indeed, stand up when braked while leaning, and getting a sense for when a "vehicle" will tend to lose traction and slide, and how to correct for this occurrence.

Practicing on a bicycle can, if you're geared up, have less severe consequences but still provide useful insights. (I can see the pics now of folks out on bicycles with all of their moto gear on...lol)

 

[LERecords]

It could be argued that it is more practical to tell someone, especially a new rider, not to do brake in a corner otherwise they will crash rather than explain all the ways it can be done appropriately.

IMO for a new rider it is better to tell them to do all their braking before a turn and not brake in a turn rather than have them brake incorrectly in a turn and cause a crash.

Fear of crashing can be a good motivator.

this is the best explination of why they dont tell you all the info in the MSF course.. totally agree that its easier to say dont do it, then to explain how to do it properly, especially in a what 4 day class..

 

[Hellgate]

I agree with mstewar1, a bicycle is an excellent way to learn two wheeled handling skills. The only part you are lacking is the power out of the corner bit, but otherwise as he stated all of the other principles apply. That and bicycles are just plain fun!

Twist of the Wrist is a great book, another book I like is "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch. He has an excellent illustration about braking into a turn that has nothing to do with food. : )

 

[DefyInertia]

The only thing of use that I can add, that I didn't see explicitly stated, is to bear in mind that when a two wheeled vehicle is turning and the brakes are applied, the vehicle will want to "stand up", i.e. it will want to stop turning. There's some kind of physics explanation for it.

This is so misleading and only true in certain situations. I hear it all the time and have been taught this before by very good riders. However, it completely ignores the fact that the bike will turn significantly better when the front forks are compressed (and that speed has a direct bearing on turning radius). Physics! You cannot get a bike to turn at a track pace WITHOUT being on the front brakes. How about that? This is one of Freddie Spencer's main principals.

On the street, if you have to tighten your line (reduce your turning radius) you can do one of two things: lean the bike more (reducing your contact patch) or slow down. The best option in any one situation depends on many factors.

this is the best explination of why they dont tell you all the info in the MSF course.. totally agree that its easier to say dont do it, then to explain how to do it properly, especially in a what 4 day class..

I agree 100%. I think cv_rider reflected on this as well. The MSF has serious value to brand new riders from a keep-them-upright standpoint. I see a problem when people interperet many of the guidelines as rules to ride by for life. Many of the teachings clearly have very limited scope.

 

[mstewar1]

This is so misleading and only true in certain situations. I hear it all the time and have been taught this before by very good riders. However, it completely ignores the fact that the bike will turn significantly better when the front forks are compressed (and that speed has a direct bearing on turning radius). Physics! You cannot get a bike to turn at a track pace WITHOUT being on the front brakes. How about that? This is one of Freddie Spencer's main principals.
...

On the street, if you have to tighten your line (reduce your turning radius) you can do one of two things: lean the bike more (reducing your contact patch) or slow down. The best option in any one situation depends on many factors.

I respectfully disagree that my comment is "misleading." To dismiss it as wholly "misleading" is to ignore, indeed, the physics of the situation. I was brief, perhaps too brief, in my post which may have led to, what felt like a whole-hearted dismissal of the notion or point I was making, and so here we go...

As has been pointed out, there is some physics involved in this equation. And I'm no engineer, nor authority on physics, so I fully expect to have someone step in a clarify or educate me/us on the details.

As I understand it, and will explain it to my students (I'm a cycling coach, downhill and cross-country my specialities), there are [probably, at least] two forces at work when a two wheel vehicle is put into a turn. Centrifugal and centripetal.

The centrifugal force is the one most folks understand -- it's the force that makes it feel as if you're going to be flung off to the outside of the turn, if you're not leaned into the turn. And it's a force that will definitely greet you if you do not lean/counter-steer the bike.

I challenge anyone to go out and get on a bicycle, pedal in a straight line and try to execute a turn by literally turning the handlebar in the desired direction without a conscious lean. From my experience, it can't be done. Please wear a helmet...and capture it on video, too. We can also demonstrate my initial point of "standing up the bike" during such an exercise. Ride at a reasonable rate of speed, not too fast, and turn your bike. As you turn the bike apply your front brake and let me know what the bike does. I know from experience that it will stand up. Because we're denying it the use of centripetal force and, instead, compelling it to allow centrifugal force to exert or express itself more fully.

The centripetal force is the one that's present/working to accelerate the vehicle through the curve; the force that's pulling the vehicle toward the center of the turn. (here's where there's a gap in my understanding and thus an ability [or willingness] to attempt what I would feel to be an accurate or precise definition of this force. So you're getting my layman's understanding.) There's something to do with Newton's second law of motion involved in this equation. How the force, the dynamic tension, of the vehicle being expressed down, through the tires (contact patch) toward the outside of the curve/turn and the presence of centripetal force, cause the vehicle to accelerate out of the turn.

If one has the ability to hold the line and hit the turn apex spot-on and consistently, then one's speed will increase as the combination of momentum and centripetal force does it's thing when you go through the turn (hit the apex). This, in addition to the expert tuning of their vehicles, is, I think, a contributing factor to how folks on the track are able to achieve and sustain such high rates of speed. And perhaps yet another reason why we shouldn't try to ride at track speeds on the road. A track is a relatively controlled environment, public roads are not. But that's another thread...

I definitely won't dispute the notion that a motorcycle is optimally poised to realize it's best, fullest speed potential when the suspension is in its "sweet spot" wherein it is partially compressed. We want the vehicle to be attempting to "extend itself" as we move through the turn.

If we brake hard as we go into a turn we'll cause the suspension to compress and we'll lose a whole bunch of energy and momentum through this unwanted action; we'll dissipate a whole bunch of energy straight into the suspension, energy that could have been used to maintain and, perhaps, gain speed. That's why it's important to get most of one's braking done before entering the turn and then attentuate one's speed, very subtly, with the front brake (trail brake) as the bike is leaned in. But that's really sorta beyond the scope of the initial question, or at least it's an advanced understanding/concept/practice that a really new rider may not do well.

Indeed, being smooth is, to my little brain, of the surest ways to get to and sustain high rates of speed.

zzzzzzzzzzzipping up the nomex suit...

 

[DefyInertia]

mstewar1, I just don't know how to respond, man. When are we going riding (and biking) so we can discuss???

Here is a really good thread that has a few opposing views that will serve as my response...

Decreasing radius thread - multiple opinions on trail braking

 

[Wavex]

I like the way Nick Ienatsch explains it in Sport Riding Techniques... let's say your front tire has 100 points of traction total... if you're going straight and want to brake, you have the full 100 points of traction at your disposal. However, if you are leaning, you are using points to maintain the required cornering traction, so you won't have as much traction available to brake.
The more you lean, and the faster you go, the more traction points are required by your front tire to corner, which in turns means you have less available to brake.

So if you're going around a corner and you're using 80points of cornering traction, you have 20 points left to use as braking traction... this is why you need to apply the brakes very gently in a turn, to make sure you don't go over the available braking traction that's left on your tire... if you grab the brake, you'll be demanding 50 points of traction (for example of course), when you only have 20 available... this will result in a nice low side (if you're lucky).
Applying the brakes gently enables you to "feel" how many points of braking traction you have available... once your cornering traction + braking traction approach the 100 points available, your tires will start to slide, at which point you need to release the brakes if you don't want to wipe out.

So the answer to your question is YES you can brake in a turn, BUT you need to do it as smoothly as you can.

Was he really cornering "too fast" or did he crash because he perceived that he was cornering too fast and failed to continue TURNING.

He "got away from the lean" That's not a good thing when you're trying to make a corner

He saved himself? Sounds like he drove off the road to me and is lucky to be alive.

IMO (and I was not there), the only thing he could have done worse is to not have slowed down at all AFTER making the decision to cease turing while in a turn. I'm guessing he would agree.

Are you really suggesting when you come in too hot you should stand the bike up and brake in a straight line? Perhaps in limited situations. Just based on my vague memory of the video in question, he should have looked and leaned. IIRC he mentioned the fact that he was upset with himself for not simply making the turn as it was doable at his speed. I could be remembering wrong.

Although the real advice is to ride at a pace you can handle, I'd hardly suggest that braking in a straight line toward a cliff is a good way to go when you get spooked.

What am I missing here?

PS - for the record, I crashed as a n00b by GRABBING the front brake in a decreasing radius turn (about 3/4 through) a fraction of a second after fixating on the edge of the road. Total rider error...could have rolled on through with significantly more speed if I had known what I was doing. US129...

I made multiple mistakes in the crash you guys are referring to, but the main one was to not pay attention to the road... we had been riding pretty hard (probably too hard) earlier in the day, and the crash actually occurred at the end of the day, AFTER we had slowed down to a more mellow pace... at which time I decided to check my video cam between 2 turns (1st mistake), thinking I had a few hundred feet before the next turn... I looked up after making sure the cam was on, only to realize I had less than 100 feet before the next left hander... so I instinctively down-shifted to try and shed as much speed as possible (2nd mistake, as I was already pretty high in revs), which put my revs WAY too high in the lower gear, unsettled the rear, freaked me out, and instead of looking through the turn and leaning the bike over (the turn itself had nothing special to it, not even tight or anything), I made the wonderful split-second decision to use the little rest area on the outside of the turn to brake and find my way back to the road (3rd mistake... especially that the rest area was dirt and gravel only lol).

Sooooooooo you are both kinda right First I should have been concentrated on the road. 2nd I should have looked through the turn and leaned. But after my 3rd mistake, my best option was keep the bike as upright as possible while being as smooth as possible on the brakes... it almost worked out... for a second there while surfing the dirt at 40mph, along a 500 feet cliff, I really thought I had a chance to make it back on the road... well, the bike ended up on the road when it was all said and done, and it only had a couple of scratches (I came out 100% fine)... overall, pretty freaking lucky...

 

[Mattberkshire]

I haven't been on any courses since I passed my test. I only know what I learnt through experience and that is YOU CAN BRAKE IN A CORNER. Not as much as when you're upright and if you get it wrong you will go straight on and crash. Elsewhere on this site is a discussion regarding emergency stops. Well they don't only happen in a straight line. My local roads tend to be rural with hedgerows obscuring anything round the corner so therefore I do have to emergency brake every now and again, so sometimes I practice and sometimes I go..........ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit and stop or slow down.

I can't go round every corner at 20mph just in case there's a tractor or some crows picking at the roadkill, or a post office van, or a pheasant crossing the road, or some d!ckhead overtaking on a corner so I've a face full of car but all the above do happen so I have to have the skills to cope. And so should everyone else if they want to live.

Therefore no-one should have the mindset that the brakes are off limits on a corner. You may have to use them one day so you must practice

 

[Cali rider]

This is a great topic and is being discussed brilliantly!

 

[mstewar1]

mstewar1, I just don't know how to respond, man. When are we going riding (and biking) so we can discuss???

Here is a really good thread that has a few opposing views that will serve as my response...

Decreasing radius thread - multiple opinions on trail braking

I'm sorry, was I a bit too wonky or ham-fisted? Didn't mean to be...

I'm not at all a fast guy when it comes to riding motorcycles. I can hold my own on a bicycle, if there's a downhill slope involved. LOL We'll eventually get out for a ride, but I'm sure you'll be having to wait for me on a fair number of occasions.

As for the topic, I like the notion/equation that Wavex mentioned. Makes perfect sense to me. There are those two forces -- centrifugal and centripetal -- at play, in a dynamic tension. Our ability to remain riding, as opposed to sliding or flying off in a high-side, is manifest through our ability to successfully, and indeed, delicately, manage or attenuate our bike's hold on the earth via the tire's contact patch. Sometimes you lean a bit more, sometimes you give it a little brake. When it works, when we're in the zone/groove, it's like magic...

ride safe folks.

 

[Hellgate]

DI you can turn a bike at track speeds without using the brakes. I'm really puzzled on that one. In a chicane you don't use them and as you know a chicane is the quickest transition from one direction to the other on the track. All you need is some counter steer and BAM! you're going the other way.

I was at Barnes & Noble today looking at an issue of Roadracing World and there is an amazing photo of four racers transitioning in a chicane, none of them had a single finger on the front brake lever.

Now I will agree that a trail brake steepens the rake and can help the bike turn. That said depending on the bike some do like to stand up under braking, especially the older '80's bikes. New ones track great.

 

[fz6nick]

I don't think anyone can/will debate that.

I was under the impression we were talking about applying the brake(s) while cornering which is very different than attempting to bring the bike to a complete stop. Thre is a big difference between Cornering and Stopping.



Was he really cornering "too fast" or did he crash because he perceived that he was cornering too fast and failed to continue TURNING.

He "got away from the lean" That's not a good thing when you're trying to make a corner

He saved himself? Sounds like he drove off the road to me and is lucky to be alive.

IMO (and I was not there), the only thing he could have done worse is to not have slowed down at all AFTER making the decision to cease turing while in a turn. I'm guessing he would agree.

Are you really suggesting when you come in too hot you should stand the bike up and brake in a straight line? Perhaps in limited situations. Just based on my vague memory of the video in question, he should have looked and leaned. IIRC he mentioned the fact that he was upset with himself for not simply making the turn as it was doable at his speed. I could be remembering wrong.

Although the real advice is to ride at a pace you can handle, I'd hardly suggest that braking in a straight line toward a cliff is a good way to go when you get spooked.

What am I missing here?

PS - for the record, I crashed as a n00b by GRABBING the front brake in a decreasing radius turn (about 3/4 through) a fraction of a second after fixating on the edge of the road. Total rider error...could have rolled on through with significantly more speed if I had known what I was doing. US129...

One of the best tips when you think your going in a turn to hot, is "When in doubt, gas it"

majority of crashes is people not having enough confidence in their bike. Trust me look up freddie spencer riding the old cb900s I believe, if they can ride those big bikes like that imagine what your fz6 will do

 

[Wavex]

You're coming too hot into a turn and your advice is to gas it? I don't think so.

I don't think it's as much confidence in your bike as technique and skills. If all it took was confidence I'd be pretty good by now... Plus "confidence" doesn't come by itself, you'll have to improve your technique and skills if you want to grow more confidence in your bike and yourself.

 

[ozzieboy]

I break in a curve all the time. Only in the first half usually though.

If you want to know how much you can break in a turn, you'll have to get a feel for how much traction you have on different road surfaces and take into account debris, dust, leaf litter and even the morning dew which you may not be able to see.

I think it is wrong of them to tell you don't brake in a corner, but to teach you about it is a big job...lol...so I can understand why.

Just take it easy when you teach yourself. It's something you want to master slowly, but I consider it very important as one day it may save your butt.

There is a nice little 'S' I like to hoot through regularly with primo surface and loads of runoff and until the last bit a nice clear view through the corner. It finishes at a 'T' junction.

Park a semi at the 'T' and what a difference that makes...lol.

It's happened to me a couple times now. No panic, no stand up the bike and lay on the brakes. Just evenly on the brakes and ease them on 'til near the edge of traction. How do you know where that is?.....Practice .

You'll be surprised how much braking you can get away with in a corner.

Also as DefyInertia has said, if you load up the forks going in you'll turn in very nicely. I also find that if I ease off the front and drag the rear a touch longer until after I ease on the power it smooths that initial transition from Decelerating to accelerating making it feel very smooth.

Just be very careful practicing until you have an idea on the different road surfaces/conditions and how they affect traction. I would not begin to practice in the wet for example.

The Disclaimer...lol. I'm no expert. These are just my observations.

I hope this helps somewhat.:thumbup:

Cheers
Mike

 

[Bruce McCrary]

You're coming too hot into a turn and your advice is to gas it? I don't think so.

When Bryan was 5 years old I taught him the three golden rules of dirt biking;

1. When you sitting you're riding, when you're standing you're racing.

2. Always look one corner ahead.

3. When in doubt, GAS IT!

Obviously number one is strictly an off road thing, but two and three apply to motorcycles in general. The theory behind number three is that the bikes suspension and geometry work best when under power and the rider tends to be more in focus and in the game if the throttle is applied.

In your own description of the incident you were involved in you as much as admitted it, just in different words. Had you not "freaked out" and instead made an (at that point in the turn and incident) aggressive effort to turn the bike (which would have instinctively involved carefully applied throttle through the turn) it may not have happened. Of course no one will ever know for sure, and please understand I am in no way picking on you, or making light of a bad situation for you!!!! Quite the opposite in fact.

Once again, all I can do is fall back on many, many years and miles of off road racing. I can though reflect on and share one near miss on our Nomad in which I momentarily lost the front end in oil in the middle of a left hand uphill turn. The bike immediately quit turning and the front end pushed toward the outside of the turn. Instinct took over and I grabbed a big handful of throttle while pushing on the left bar ever so slightly. The gyroscopic effect of engine made the bike want to stand up but also 'drove' us through it, while the counter steer put me back in the 'groove' of the turn. Fortunately we all (the bike, my wife and I) ended up exiting the turn together and in almost the same line I entered it in. Had I not aggressively went after that turn (wicking the throttle WFO and committing to it totally) we would have went straight off the turn and into the side of a mountain. I'll take a fair amount of credit in the save, but give damn good luck it's due as well.

Wonderful discussion gang!

Bruce

 

[Hellgate]

Good stuff Bruce.

I've never ridden off road on a motorcycle and I would like to so I can better understand the physics of it. All I want is a 250 Enduro bike...someday...

 

[Bruce McCrary]

The biggest...adjustment for me is dealing with traction. On road you have it most of the time and anticipate losing it, off road you seldom have it and are always looking for it. Sounds strange I know, but those who have ridden both I think will understand and if you ever get a chance to ride off road you'll see what I mean.

Rick Sieman, AKA "Super Hunky" of Dirt BIKE magazine fame wrote a book called "Monkey Butt" that I highly recommend every rider read. In one of the chapters he goes into detail about a photo shoot they once did for the magazine (I remember the issue!) in which Jim Holley, a local So Cal hot shoe at the time, took a full dress Harley and made several impressive jumps and bermshots with it. Keeping in mind that this was the 70's and the only things that flew as high and far as the SX crowd does today needed a stewardess... In the chapter he tells how he asked Holley if he could actually jump the beast safely to which Jim replied "Sure, it's just a motorcycle." Which loosely translates into basically, they are all going to react to any given situation in more or less the same fashion. And that he was an exceptionally talented rider.

Bruce

 

[DefyInertia]

DI you can turn a bike at track speeds without using the brakes. I'm really puzzled on that one. In a chicane you don't use them and as you know a chicane is the quickest transition from one direction to the other on the track. All you need is some counter steer and BAM! you're going the other way.

I was at Barnes & Noble today looking at an issue of Roadracing World and there is an amazing photo of four racers transitioning in a chicane, none of them had a single finger on the front brake lever.

Now I will agree that a trail brake steepens the rake and can help the bike turn. That said depending on the bike some do like to stand up under braking, especially the older '80's bikes. New ones track great.

I'm puzzled by that fact you thought I would think that.

I'm talking about your third paragraph. :thumbup: Not chicanes, not lazy street riding, not wet city riding, and not a n00b riding down the interstate. I'm talking about BRAKING IN A TURN (as opposed to NOT braking in a turn, or NOT turning while braking). I'm talking about serious turning at a serious pace and how the same principals/methods can be scaled back from that level and applied to the street (especially when in too hot).

I don't brake in every turn. On the street I often chuck the bike into the corner on the gas setting the bike into my late apexing line.

I'm personally also talking about modern sportbikes (the FZ6 included). Not old bikes with geometry I'm not familiar with, not dirt bikes (which I learned to turn by shoving down under me and gassing it), and not bicycles. [not saying others can't or shouldn't talk about whatever they wish]

So far in this thread I've learned to make the distinciton between between the value of some of what the MSF teaches when explained to a n00b vs. when explained to the average+ rider.

 

[Wavex]

When Bryan was 5 years old I taught him the three golden rules of dirt biking;

1. When you sitting you're riding, when you're standing you're racing.

2. Always look one corner ahead.

3. When in doubt, GAS IT!

Obviously number one is strictly an off road thing, but two and three apply to motorcycles in general. The theory behind number three is that the bikes suspension and geometry work best when under power and the rider tends to be more in focus and in the game if the throttle is applied.

In your own description of the incident you were involved in you as much as admitted it, just in different words. Had you not "freaked out" and instead made an (at that point in the turn and incident) aggressive effort to turn the bike (which would have instinctively involved carefully applied throttle through the turn) it may not have happened. Of course no one will ever know for sure, and please understand I am in no way picking on you, or making light of a bad situation for you!!!! Quite the opposite in fact.

Once again, all I can do is fall back on many, many years and miles of off road racing. I can though reflect on and share one near miss on our Nomad in which I momentarily lost the front end in oil in the middle of a left hand uphill turn. The bike immediately quit turning and the front end pushed toward the outside of the turn. Instinct took over and I grabbed a big handful of throttle while pushing on the left bar ever so slightly. The gyroscopic effect of engine made the bike want to stand up but also 'drove' us through it, while the counter steer put me back in the 'groove' of the turn. Fortunately we all (the bike, my wife and I) ended up exiting the turn together and in almost the same line I entered it in. Had I not aggressively went after that turn (wicking the throttle WFO and committing to it totally) we would have went straight off the turn and into the side of a mountain. I'll take a fair amount of credit in the save, but give damn good luck it's due as well.

Wonderful discussion gang!

Bruce

Yeah see I would have probably wiped out on that oil :rof: for some reason I often end up on my ass... thanks for the story :rockon:

I agree that in certain situations (dirt, gravel... where traction is reduced), dirtbike skills are applicable to the streets, and the "gas it" advice would hold, but I was assuming we were talking about a normal corner, with proper traction. If you come in too hot in that turn (meaning that you just realized you are going too fast to make that turn safely considering your skill level... - that is what "coming in too hot" means right?), "gasing it" wouldn't help you make it through. Leaning over, while maintaining throttle (or trail-braking if you were already braking when you realized you were too hot) are options, but opening wide open is not going to get you out of trouble (especially NOT on the Buell )

In my accident, I should definitely not have "gased" it, I should have smoothly gotten on the brakes while leaning over and looking at John's ass