Breaking in a curve? NO?

[Bruce McCrary]

I'm puzzled by that fact you thought I would think that.

I'm talking about your third paragraph. :thumbup: Not chicanes, not lazy street riding, not wet city riding, and not a n00b riding down the interstate. I'm talking about BRAKING IN A TURN (as opposed to NOT braking in a turn, or NOT turning while braking). I'm talking about serious turning at a serious pace and how the same principals/methods can be scaled back from that level and applied to the street (especially when in too hot).

I don't brake in every turn. On the street I often chuck the bike into the corner on the gas setting the bike into my late apexing line.

I'm personally also talking about modern sportbikes (the FZ6 included). Not old bikes with geometry I'm not familiar with, not dirt bikes (which I learned to turn by shoving down under me and gassing it), and not bicycles. [not saying others can't or shouldn't talk about whatever they wish]

So far in this thread I've learned to make the distinction between between the value of some of what the MSF teaches when explained to a n00b vs. when explained to the average+ rider.

Yeah see I would have probably wiped out on that oil :rof: for some reason I often end up on my ass... thanks for the story :rockon:

I agree that in certain situations (dirt, gravel... where traction is reduced), dirtbike skills are applicable to the streets, and the "gas it" advice would hold, but I was assuming we were talking about a normal corner, with proper traction. If you come in too hot in that turn (meaning that you just realized you are going too fast to make that turn safely considering your skill level... - that is what "coming in too hot" means right?), "gassing it" wouldn't help you make it through. Leaning over, while maintaining throttle (or trail-braking if you were already braking when you realized you were too hot) are options, but opening wide open is not going to get you out of trouble (especially NOT on the Buell )

My point is that, regardless of type or style of bike, regardless of geometry and regardless of surface type and available traction a motorcycle will basically respond to the inputs and environment in pretty much the same way. Examples being; all respond to counter steering in the same way, all react to hard braking in the same manor, both have a decreased turn radius while the forks are compressed. An off road racer sticks his inside leg out and shifts his weight forward for exactly the same reason a road racer slides his butt off the seat and drags his knee. Trail braking works exactly the same on both, as does dragging the rear brake to help with traction as well as weighting the outside peg in turn forces the rear wheel to bite.

Roger DeCoster once said that the day is coming when the major difference between a road race bike and an off road race bike will be the tires that it wears. Those of you that take things to the very literal since won't understand. Those that can see things in a broader spectrum will see that both bikes now have single rear shocks that have adjustable rebound and compression dampening and operate (for the most part) on a progressive linkage system, both bikes have inverted front forks that are almost exactly the same diameter and feature adjustable dampening. Both are liquid cooled, both use hydraulic disc brakes and many of them use hydraulic clutches. Both now have high revving four stroke engines with cylinder head design that is very, very similar, etc., etc. It only stands to reason that if this is true, then the basic set of skills and riding techniques will be very similar too.

Having said that and to tie back into the original posters question, if even one person can brake while in a turn, then so can every other rider. It's just a matter of skill sets and saddle time. IMHO the MSF course (as great as they are and as much good as they do) need some overhauling. The industry supports me on this too as there are moves afoot to do just that. If you can accept my points then you can understand that even at a beginning level, heck, especially in a beginning level, basics should include more than clutch on the left, brake on the right and should not include "Do not brake in a turn" but should instead be "braking in a turn can done be under these conditions" so that the basic knowledge foundation is built on real facts and not conditions that simply keep the rider up right and the instructors from being sued.

In my accident, I should definitely not have "gassed" it, I should have smoothly gotten on the brakes while leaning over and looking at John's ass

Well, geeze. I'm not sure that staring at another mans butt will make you corner any better, but hey, what ever works for you!

Bruce

 

[Fz6Sa]

We have to remember that there always will be differences between driving-classes and the real world.
A driving instructor will tell you to brake before the turn, use both brakes every time you brake, and so on.

However Track riding techniques are very different to what the newbie rider will learn to make his way safely around in traffic.

"Twist Of The Wrist" actually explains why this is so:

Keith Code writes that you only have a fixed amount of concentration, so as long as you have to concentrate on gears, clutch, balance and other "basic" stuff, you just don't have any concentration left for the more advanced stuff, - like breaking in turns and so on!!

So it makes perfect sense for the driving instructors to put up driving rules that takes the more advanced techniques out of the equation.
Advanced driving is for experienced drivers, - not the new bee, hence you have to teach the new bee to ride in a safe way without all the fancy tricks!

 

[teeter]

Read "Proficient Motorcycling"

It is safe if done correctly. And you MUST know how to do it. Things happen in the middle of a turn just like they happen at intesections and on straight open highways.

In conjunction with the MSF course read PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING by David Hough. Even with 10's of thousands of miles under your belt you can learn a lot from this book. And corner braking is covered in depth. Not just corner slowing, but hard, emergency corner braking.

The traction pie is a great analagy. You can't take more than 100% and stay upright. So, one trick is turning less to allow more traction for braking. Your bike is narrow and the lane is wide. Use that to your advantage.

Most importantly, keep a safe following distance and look THROUGH the turn so that you won't have to brake hard in the middle. Also, until you are indeed "proficient" take it easy coming into corners. Late, panic braking into a corner puts many a green rider in the trees.

 

[Wavex]

My point is that, regardless of type or style of bike, regardless of geometry and regardless of surface type and available traction a motorcycle will basically respond to the inputs and environment in pretty much the same way. Examples being; all respond to counter steering in the same way, all react to hard braking in the same manor, both have a decreased turn radius while the forks are compressed. An off road racer sticks his inside leg out and shifts his weight forward for exactly the same reason a road racer slides his butt off the seat and drags his knee. Trail braking works exactly the same on both, as does dragging the rear brake to help with traction as well as weighting the outside peg in turn forces the rear wheel to bite.

I am not sure I understand your point Bruce, I was only pointing out that "gasing it" is not, imho, a good advice to give anyone when the subject is "coming in too hot into a turn".

I might be missing something here, but I also don't agree with your statement that "regardless of the type of bike and regardless of surface type and available traction a motorcycle will respond to inputs and environment the same way"... I understand that the basic functions are the same (it's got 2 wheels, and engine and a handlebar ), but I don't think a race replica will respond the same way a dirt bike will no matter what the available traction is... there's no way. And I also think that the bag of skills a dirt bike rider has is not directly applicable to the street bike world. Sure having dirt bike skills will be very useful in certain situations (when available traction is reduced for example), but while your knobby tires on your dirt bike require that you gas it when turning on gravel, I am not sure you would do the same on your FZ with street tires on There's no "general rule" applicable no matter what bike or road surface you're on...

IMO, the available traction and road surface very much dictate the kinds of skills you need to use. Stating that the same skills will work no matter what bike, road surface or available traction is a stretch imo...

But anyway, this is not the topic of this thread so we can agree to disagree

 

[robertdroberts]

IN the MSF class they will instruct to get the bike upright before braking such that you are braking in a straight line of travel. I presume this is the simplest/safest way to brake in a corner which is why they teach that way. You of course can brake while cornering - the front brake will change your line more than the rear brake - experienced riders will use trail braking as mentioned.

Edit - guess I was made redundant while I typed.

I would say the upright part of breaking in a curve is in the event of an emergency (rocks in the road perhaps).

 

[mstewar1]

Getting back to the original question: can you brake in a turn? Well, yes, you can. I honestly don't know what the MSF teaches. As has been pointed out in this thread:

-- The basic MSF course has to, by design, attempt to introduce a range of riders -- from the absolute, very, very new to those who have some two-wheel riding experience -- to some sort of reasonably "comprehensive" yet digestible body of knowledge.

-- In doing the above, the MSF has to be sure to protect themselves from litigation. As an organization, they've got to be sure that the info they dispense is "safe." What is "safe..?" Let the lawyers loose...

So can you brake in a turn?

As folks have pointed out in this thread, yes you can. Should you? Well, what are your options? Are you riding in such a way as to give yourself options? Are you riding over your head? Are you riding in, what some might deem, an unsafe manner for the given conditions? Are you riding "the pace?" Are you riding at 10/10 or are you at some lower percentage, such as 7, or 8/10?

Grabbing a big ol' handful of brakes mid-corner, mid-lean, I would submit and I think others here would agree, would not be a wise idea. Doing so would more than likely find you quickly making contact with the ground in a rather unpleasant way. Having a hand on the brake and gently applying it, with awareness and respect for the forces that are at work, and with equal respect for the very small contact patch that your tires have with the roadway, yes, you could apply some brake.

And again, the folks here have pointed out a whole mess of other variables: where are you looking? where are you in the lane? where are you in relation to the apex of the turn? is acceleration an option? what are your available "outs" -- where can you safely go other than what was initially your intended direction of travel?

 

[Hellgate]

^^^ Spot on Situation dictates.

The last scare I had was on the track when both tires drifted. My knee was already down so I push with it to keep me up, straightened the bike out and got on the brakes. Right before I went off-road I released the brake trail throttled through the dirt and cruised back onto the track. Then I looked around to see if anyone noticed!

If I was in a canyon I would have had a different course of action...situation dictates.

 

[FizzySix]

It is my firm opinion that one should not break anything in a curve.

That being said, since our conversation has drifted off-topic to braking in curves, sure it can be done.

We've all read about the traction pie and so forth, we know that we have to be smoother with the brakes than the Fonz was with the ladies, and we know that only some fraction of what we can use when upright practicing emergency stops is still available in a curve.

The catch is: I don't know of a good way for an ordinary street rider to know precisely how much brake they have left in curves, other than crashing it on different kinds of curves and discovering where that limit is (ouch). Those of you who do track days, perhaps you've begun to lose traction in a curve and have a better idea? Even so, a random curve in a road is different than a carefully manicured track curve you've been through over and over.

I know this has evolved into a technical conversation (and certainly beyond my knowledge level) but to bring it back to the OP all we can really say is to follow the MSF's and other sources' advice together: you can apply some brake in a curve but minimize it, stand it up if in an emergency if the situation allows, and then perhaps more importantly figure out afterward why it was that you felt you needed to apply them rather than leaning more, swerving, etc. (obviously this doesn't apply to anyone intentionally doing so)

In one of the books out there (I think it was sport riding techniques) the author went on for a whole chapter on using your vision properly, and said something to the effect of: the next time you get surprised by something, you'll probably find that it was a problem with your vision skills. Interesting position.

 

[DefyInertia]

Yeah, so this is a good thread.

Can you? Yes. Should you? It depends! Often YES!!! Often NOOO!!!!!

 

[Bruce McCrary]

But anyway, this is not the topic of this thread so we can agree to disagree

In reality I don't think we are very far apart on our opinions, we're just suffering from a failure to communicate.

It's all good. Love the discussion and respect your's and everyone else's thoughts and opinions. Very good stuff.

Bruce

 

[Mattberkshire]

I'm reviving this thread as I had an experience today which required me to brake in a corner. I posted a while back that it is possible to brake in a corner and that you should practice for it. Today that practice came off.

I was riding along a fast, single lane A road behind 2 cars. We approached a roundabout and the single lane fanned out into 2 lanes. I was going straight on and headed for the left lane whilost both cars were turning right so went into the right lane. There was a curve leading up to the roundabout, I had slowed but was not going to stop as I could see no traffic approaching. 20 yards before the roundabout, whilst I was fairly leaned over one of the cars decided to come into my lane without bothering to check anyone was there. I had to emergency stop and pull to the left whilst doing about 25mph on a sharpish bend. The bloke saw me at the last minute. I felt like kicking his door in but was reminded of something Niall McKenzie said - don't let yourself get angry due to the actions of someone else as you will be the one to suffer when you make poor decisions. I just cursed under my breathe, gave him the flying v's and carried on. A bit wiser

 

[LERecords]

good story matt...

this past weekend was my first long ride of the season and i thoguht about hte whole braking in a turn.. sure its something that you can do, but i found myself braking more before the turn once i started thinking about it.. i would say it is something that i am glad to know how to do, but i wouldnt use it for an emergency stop or i might end up slidding all over the road...

 

[Relayer1974]

the msf book describes the concept of "traction pie" - how much of your wheels traction is consumed by various things your bike is doing. Once you've eaten all your pie, you start skidding. Cornering consumes traction, as does braking, so doing both at the same time leaves less pie for staying upright. Specifically, braking with either wheel (but moreso the front) takes traction away from the rear wheel, making it more likely to skid out.

Msf also says you should straighten the bike before braking, and the course teaches you this. That always seemed to me a bit of an artificial/unrealistic scenario, as it could cause you to ride into oncoming traffic in a right hand turn.

All that being said, braking in a turn won't cause you to instantly crash. While you should plan your entry speed such that you don't have to brake, i've found the need to brake in turns upon misjudgement and i didn't crash. I don't wail around turns that often (partly for that reason), so i guess i had a fair amount of traction pie remaining.

Rear braking is preferable in a turn if it is necessary to lose some speed.

mmmmmm.....pie!!