GARGOYLES in my 6!!

[warrencycle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niWByKU4EE0&feature=youtube_gdata_player


No dice. :'( not sure what to do at this point.

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[FinalImpact]

Is the replacement chain having less slack?
Something I thought of that may help the diagnoses: In this case a picture will do the talking. Clean with lacquer thinner first and maybe any area deformed by passing a clutch disc through it, might show up with this prussian blue gear compound? Carbon paper may work also it depends on the tolerances.

EDIT: Another option is to use a dial indicator and and check for run out. But this last video really makes it sound like it 100% Right side, all the time and the most likely place for those clutch bits to go is through the primary reduction gears. I'm thinking they are deformed. I would want to stick a dial indicator on BOTH the crank and the transmission shaft and check for run-out before replacing the gears on the right side.

I think you can run some thin paper through those gears and see the paper not be cut the same as 95% of the gears other teeth.​

Check it out!

Link I mentioned:
http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/48071-broken-my-gears.html


A quick summary as the failure types are different, but perhaps the same type of damage may have been induced?? In the end, the transmission gear set was replaced to stop the noise.

In that thread the interlocks failed and trans potentially went into two gears at once under high RPM. I didn't break anything per say but it forever had a noise from the trans from extreme loads being placed on the gear set.

Just guessing but - the loads may have it damaged the soft bearing internal to a gears. Think in terms of an engine bearing like a rod, crank or one piece CAM bearing. I think it deformed the soft bearing so under load it allows the gears to have a poor contact pattern. Now yours having ingested clutch disc it may show up on the gear pattern.

 

[warrencycle]

Is the replacement chain having less slack?
Something I thought of that may help the diagnoses: In this case a picture will do the talking. Clean with lacquer thinner first and maybe any area deformed by passing a clutch disc through it, might show up with this prussian blue gear compound? Carbon paper may work also it depends on the tolerances.

Check it out!

Link I mentioned:
http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/48071-broken-my-gears.html


A quick summary as the failure types are different, but perhaps the same type of damage may have been induced?? In the end, the transmission gear set was replaced to stop the noise.

In that thread the interlocks failed and trans potentially went into two gears at once under high RPM. I didn't break anything per say but it forever had a noise from the trans from extreme loads being placed on the gear set.

Just guessing but - the loads may have it damaged the soft bearing internal to a gears. Think in terms of an engine bearing like a rod, crank or one piece CAM bearing. I think it deformed the soft bearing so under load it allows the gears to have a poor contact pattern. Now yours having ingested clutch disc it may show up on the gear pattern.

I agree it does sound like chirping gears, but I just can't understand how any clutch could have made it in there. I heard a crack on the left side of the bike, when it happened. I chalked that up to my ears playin tricks on me when i found the clutch broken. I'm curious if the shift forks have anything to do with it. Either way looks like I'll be rebuilding the trans. :\ I keep running the events over. It was an aggressive first gear launch, and heard the crack. No lose in power, gears felt fine, just a god awful sound coming from underneath... smh forehead slap.

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[FinalImpact]

I agree it does sound like chirping gears, but I just can't understand how any clutch could have made it in there. I heard a crack on the left side of the bike, when it happened. I chalked that up to my ears playin tricks on me when i found the clutch broken. I'm curious if the shift forks have anything to do with it. Either way looks like I'll be rebuilding the trans. :/

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See post again - I made an edit. Sounds like primary gear set as its 100% all the time. It doesn't change much with clutch IN does it??? maybe tone but still present, correct?

paper the gears, carbon paper, someting. It will show up.

 

[warrencycle]

See post again - I made an edit. Sounds like primary gear set as its 100% all the time. It doesn't change much with clutch IN does it??? maybe tone but still present, correct?

paper the gears, carbon paper, someting. It will show up.

Absolutely no change with clutch in or out. Same sound. Baffling.

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[FinalImpact]

OH CR@P!!!
The cranks drive is on the crank! Not coming off! As best I can see from pic.

Does running the blue goo or paper though the gears making sense? You would be looking for contact pattern.

Sorry man! This SUCKS!

Thanks [MENTION=22030]AdamFZ[/MENTION]

 

[warrencycle]

OH CR@P!!!
The cranks drive is on the crank! Not coming off! As best I can see from pic.

Does running the blue goo or paper though the gears making sense? You would be looking for contact pattern.

Sorry man! This SUCKS!

Thanks [MENTION=22030]AdamFZ[/MENTION]

Uploading a new video now. Shows clutch in and out and first gear response. Very very slight sound chang when clutch in but not significant.

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[FinalImpact]

Uploading a new video now. Shows clutch in and out and first gear response. Very very slight sound chang when clutch in but not significant.

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ANd you spun the gear set with your drill and it was pretty normal. I'm pretty sure that's because the noise is from the primary reduction gear set. That crank gear, Which we can bet with 99% certainty it didn't bend the crank.

So that leaves the input shaft on the trans or the clutch basket gear. Sadly, it also leaves the gear on the crank as being suspect.

Did you replace the clutch basket and gear? Its still the original right? But why is the sound so different now??

 

[warrencycle]

ANd you spun the gear set with your drill and it was pretty normal. I'm pretty sure that's because the noise is from the primary reduction gear set. That crank gear, Which we can bet with 99% certainty it didn't bend the crank.

So that leaves the input shaft on the trans or the clutch basket gear. Sadly, it also leaves the gear on the crank as being suspect.

Did you replace the clutch basket and gear? Its still the original right? But why is the sound so different now??

Yea, clutch and basket were changed.

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[warrencycle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgZvQb_GbDM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


New video, shows clutch in and out. Plus 1st gear clutch in and out.

I might just... hop on it tomorrow do a a buck fifty and see if it fixes it self. Lol.

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[FinalImpact]

Dude, that sucks!
I was trying to figure out why the sound changed so much, it appears two major ingredients are left.

A) it bent the shaft on the trans and the sound is the contact patch chaining.

B) it deformed the gear on the crank.

Your next step is to place a dial indicator either on the clutch basket or the strip the clutch and go straight to the shaft.

Samples...
View attachment 51718 View attachment 51719

 

[warrencycle]

Dude, that sucks!
I was trying to figure out why the sound changed so much, it appears two major ingredients are left.

A) it bent the shaft on the trans and the sound is the contact patch chaining.

B) it deformed the gear on the crank.

Your next step is to place a dial indicator either on the clutch basket or the strip the clutch and go straight to the shaft.

Samples...
View attachment 51718 View attachment 51719

I'm gonna blow it up. Then start from scratch. Unless I decide to spend the $100 for fleabay gears...fml

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[AdamFZ]

That vid sounds a like a flat spot on your cams slapping a cam follower, have you whipped off the cam cover to check the top end ?

 

[warrencycle]

That vid sounds a like a flat spot on your cams slapping a cam follower, have you whipped off the cam cover to check the top end ?

It doesn't sound like its come from the top end at all, but I planned to blocl off the AIS so it can't hurt to look. Thanks! I'm beginning to feel like Alice.

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[warrencycle]

Ruled out the CCT today. Have yet to pull the vavle cover. Got a long weekend coming up. Going to run an inspection camera through it, and a mechanics stethoscope. Ill post more vids. Also I have been trolling youtube more, its frustrating so many people have this problem, but fail to either fix it or post a follow-up.

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[FinalImpact]

Do you not think its the contact area of the two gears? The fact that it chnaged by replacing 1/2 the gear set seems as though your on the right trail? Now the question is, what to do about it?

Have you done a super close inspection of the removed gear? Pretty sure it ingested disc and is deformed at some level. The paper cut test I suggested should also reveal something.

Note many options. I may swing by the local speed shop who builds race bikes and ask them. I'm guessing they've been down this road before.

 

[warrencycle]

Do you not think its the contact area of the two gears? The fact that it chnaged by replacing 1/2 the gear set seems as though your on the right trail? Now the question is, what to do about it?

Have you done a super close inspection of the removed gear? Pretty sure it ingested disc and is deformed at some level. The paper cut test I suggested should also reveal something.

Note many options. I may swing by the local speed shop who builds race bikes and ask them. I'm guessing they've been down this road before.

Yea I wanna tear into the gears, but I wanna narrow it down and be at least 80% sure its coming from the gears. I read most of adamfz's post. His noise seemed to be a little different, but I'm not rulling it out. Yes, I'm also thinking maybe I cracked a gear or damaged a gear surface at this point. Maybe even a bearing because I still have power and transition through all the gears... its all speculative until I crack it open again and or run some more tests.

I can't say it enough thank you all for your input and advice.

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[TownsendsFJR1300]

Randy just Pm'ed me re this thread...

It does appear you have more broken parts than what blew up.

As noisy as it is, your not able to narrow down where the clicking is coming from or noticed (when the engine was apart) , no aluminum wear marks on the block?


Just as a side note, something to look for. On my old KLR 250, it was notorious for the left side main crank, roller (pretty large) to fail every 32,000 miles. The first time it went, the cage, that held the actual bearings apart was approx 1/3 GONE.. it made a god aweful noise.

With that said, metal parts of the clutch (and if something blew up previously and left debris) got into any of those bearings, it would also make some serious noise (like yours).

When you have the pan off (or side covers), pay super close attention to all the brearings and literally take a screwdriver and lean some on the shafts checking for ANY PLAY.

A bad gear, I would think, would whine more than your click/tick sound.

In either case, with ALL the debris that got into the engine, to keep from doing this again, I'd probably pull the engine apart and make sure ALL the crap/metal, clutch material is out of there. It doesn't take much to clog up an oil passage and fry a major bearing (which it could be) or engine..

Just as a side note, about 1.5 years ago, my local shop had an R6 in there with a blown up clutch plate(1/4 mile or drag racing). The parts got scattered thru out the engine and literally locked up the engine with debris stuck in-between gears. The shop wanted to do a full tear down, the owner couldn't afford it, they ended up pulling the motor, flip it upside down and manually pulling clutch parts from the engine...

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm pretty sure this gear (RED CIRCLE IN PIC) has an irregularity in it, (tooth/teeth displaced) and this is what you hear as the two gears are accelerated and decelerated. Hence the need to check the clearance around 360 degrees of the mating gear sets. However, placing a dial indicator on the transmission shaft is the first and best choice to asses what to do next. If it has run out, how much does it have and does it still meet spec? If RUUNOUT meets spec and you have a new gear on it, that really points the finger at the cranks drive gear. It needs inspected closely.

Its not a pleasant sound and changed drastically with the clutch gear replacement. Replacement of that alone changed the noise so much that IMO indicates it was the relationship of those two gears making the noise. Plus its the MOST LIKELY to be struck and ingest clutch debris. That's why I raise the question, "what to do with it now"??

One option may be to live with it. However this comes with huge risk that it could knock a tooth free and lock up. THIS COULD KILL YOU! A used crank is one option. Then you just have to match bearings. Something to think about.

Again, sorry. Very sorry...

 

[warrencycle]

I'm pretty sure this gear (RED CIRCLE IN PIC) has an irregularity in it, (tooth/teeth displaced) and this is what you hear as the two gears are accelerated and decelerated. Hence the need to check the clearance around 360 degrees of the mating gear sets. However, placing a dial indicator on the transmission shaft is the first and best choice to asses what to do next. If it has run out, how much does it have and does it still meet spec? If RUUNOUT meets spec and you have a new gear on it, that really points the finger at the cranks drive gear. It needs inspected closely.

Its not a pleasant sound and changed drastically with the clutch gear replacement. Replacement of that alone changed the noise so much that IMO indicates it was the relationship of those two gears making the noise. Plus its the MOST LIKELY to be struck and ingest clutch debris. That's why I raise the question, "what to do with it now"??

One option may be to live with it. However this comes with huge risk that it could knock a tooth free and lock up. THIS COULD KILL YOU! A used crank is one option. Then you just have to match bearings. Something to think about.

Again, sorry. Very sorry...

After todays findings... I can assure you that you are probably correct & I'm with you 100% with you on this. I need a crank shaft and drive gear.

Watch video at the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T38RrGjf-oY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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