Camshaft profile, anyone know the specs???

[FinalImpact]

The thing is when you do move the cams around the piston are at TDC. So if you use a screw driver (with electrical tape on the tip so you don't scratch anything) you can use a dial indicator and actually gently push on the lifter to see how much you have before it hit the piston... you need 0.040" or 1 mm min clearance, that's if you TDC is perfectly spot on.

GREAT Tip about establishing clearance! Simple and effective with a dial indicator! :thumbup:

Yama -
How are your determining the difference in duration w/out the cams installed? I simply don't have anything to accurately measure rotation so I'm at a loss. Or are you going purely from gear alignment marks for zero?

 

[Marthy]

I was just quite surprised at the difference in overlap between the FZ6 and the '07 R6, thinking that the FZ6's overlap was excessive I was considering ways to safely minimise it, as smaller overlaps lend themselves to increased torque.

Also seems as though the FZ6 has a very large duration on the inlet cam, puts retarding the inlet cam to reduce overlap out of the question as the inlet valve already closes very late.

Running myself through the engine cycle, I can't see any danger in advancing the exhaust cam mechanically speaking as the piston/valve clearance is increasing, you would be decreasing the piston/valve clearance when retarding it though.


Yamahaboyz

A little detail here... those are the FZ6 cams the way they were set on my bike, not the STD FZ6 setting. I end up with ILC: 102, ELC: 105

Might be a good thing to get the STD numbers before you start moving things around.

Don't forget what I suggest you also. There's few difference between our engine but the main difference between my configuration and a stock FZ6 are the 32mm throttle body. And they bolt right in!

 

[Marthy]

GREAT Tip about establishing clearance! Simple and effective with a dial indicator! :thumbup:

Yama -
How are your determining the difference in duration w/out the cams installed? I simply don't have anything to accurately measure rotation so I'm at a loss. Or are you going purely from gear alignment marks for zero?

I used a 6" degree wheel that I bough for $15.00 or so. I welded a large washer on a 12mm socket then cut the socket lenght wise, drill a 3/16" hole and put a bolt through... so basically I rivet the degree wheel on the socket then use the 10/32 bolt to pinch the socket on the crankshaft bolt. Then use a piece of steel wire hook up somewhere to indicate zero.

 

[Marthy]

I used a 6" degree wheel that I bough for $15.00 or so. I welded a large washer on a 12mm socket then cut the socket lenght wise, drill a 3/16" hole and put a bolt through... so basically I rivet the degree wheel on the socket then use the 10/32 bolt to pinch the socket on the crankshaft bolt. Then use a piece of steel wire hook up somewhere to indicate zero.

Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Marthy]

Sorry for the huge picture, Tapatak sometime... But you got the whole idea. I had to hold it straight while turning (still could use a regular 3/8" drive ratchet) Measure 3 time, best 2 out of 3 LOL

 

[FinalImpact]

That's all very good although I'm missing how you zero it as it looks fixed and moves with the locking bolt on the cam. Am I missing the means of rotational adjustment to the wheel? ah - not the pointer, but the wheel to the rivet/ socket?

What I fail to understand is how others are simply rolling the dice. I've always used a deg wheel.
With D/I establish true TDC.
Knowing lift specs; confirm valve lift per degree of rotation specified.
Establish zero using lift specs by checking at least three times (you LOL here).
Repeat on Exhaust or get a 2nd wheel!

Great info! Thanks ALL!

 

[YZF73]

GREAT Tip about establishing clearance! Simple and effective with a dial indicator! :thumbup:

Yama -
How are your determining the difference in duration w/out the cams installed? I simply don't have anything to accurately measure rotation so I'm at a loss. Or are you going purely from gear alignment marks for zero?

I'm purely stating duration as the difference between the valve opening and valve closing values Marthy had previously posted, all theoretical at the moment. :thumbup: Saying that duration is duration, it can't change for a given cam profile.


Yamahaboyz

 

[YZF73]

A little detail here... those are the FZ6 cams the way they were set on my bike, not the STD FZ6 setting. I end up with ILC: 102, ELC: 105

Might be a good thing to get the STD numbers before you start moving things around.

Don't forget what I suggest you also. There's few difference between our engine but the main difference between my configuration and a stock FZ6 are the 32mm throttle body. And they bolt right in!

So 102/105 is for a standard FZ6?

If not, do you remember what the advance and retard numbers were for this setup? As from this I should be able to derive the standard FZ6 setup.

I'm tempted by the throttle body idea, but as I'm just trying to add a little mid range torque whilst not detracting from the top end too much I think advancing the exhaust cam a couple of degrees would be the most effective and cheapest option (I'm also not running any type of additional fuel control module, which may be an issue when changing the throttle body).


Yamahaboyz

 

[Marthy]

That's all very good although I'm missing how you zero it as it looks fixed and moves with the locking bolt on the cam. Am I missing the means of rotational adjustment to the wheel? ah - not the pointer, but the wheel to the rivet/ socket?

What I fail to understand is how others are simply rolling the dice. I've always used a deg wheel.
With D/I establish true TDC.
Knowing lift specs; confirm valve lift per degree of rotation specified.
Establish zero using lift specs by checking at least three times (you LOL here).
Repeat on Exhaust or get a 2nd wheel!

Great info! Thanks ALL!

The degree wheel goes on the crank. Let's assume here that the STD crank reference mark is spot on... You put the degree wheel with the crank at TDC and the cam gears mark are line up. Use a piece of lock wire or hanger as a pointer line up with 0 on the degree wheel. With a dial on the valve lifter then you note when the needle start moving. IVO! same at 0.040" (1mm) IVO@1mm! continue then do IVC@1mm! then IVC! Repeat for the exhaust cam. Make sure you never loose the zero on the crank...

Afterward you ca do all the graph and thing like that. The bottom line is it doesn't really matter where you are at. The FZ6 cams are good cams. What you need to ask your self is where I want to go from where I'm at. More top end or better mid range?

Advancing the cams will bring the power down the RPM, retarding will bring it up. Reducing overlap will make the engine more "flat curve" and torquy. More overlap will improve top end scavenging... Then mechanically you need to make sure you got all the right clearance.

There's no magic numbers here, just need to do few test and figure out where it's the happiest.

Sound like a lot of fun, hey! :BLAA:

 

[Marthy]

So 102/105 is for a standard FZ6?

If not, do you remember what the advance and retard numbers were for this setup? As from this I should be able to derive the standard FZ6 setup.

I'm tempted by the throttle body idea, but as I'm just trying to add a little mid range torque whilst not detracting from the top end too much I think advancing the exhaust cam a couple of degrees would be the most effective and cheapest option (I'm also not running any type of additional fuel control module, which may be an issue when changing the throttle body).


Yamahaboyz

Ok, if you want to reference from the FZ6R cam gears. The FZ6 cams would be ILC:102 , ELC:107 (I'm at 0/-2 degree)

But the FZ6 cam gear could be different. Like I mention earlier, 0.008" is about 1 degree. Unless I can measure it on the bike (FZ6) there's no way I can tell you if the cam gear timing are both the same...


As a ref:

1- ILC 104, ELC 107 : Bottom end was good, top end was good too but big flat spot from 6-8K.

2- ILC 104, ELC 109 : Pull like a diesel in the mid range but no top end

3- ILC 104, ELC 105 : Good over the RPM range but feel like I need another 1K at top end (6R soft rev limiter at 12500 RPM)

4- ILC 102, ELC 105 : Still pull strong from 4K, consistent at mid range and great top end! Pull strong up to 12K. Feel like it peak around 10500 - 11K Dyno needed to validate.

So that was what I did. Just had to test all of them to find the sweet spot. Unfortunately no one did it for me. I'm the first and only one so far doing the FZ6 cams swap.

Hope it help. Those are just reference. Every engine response differently.

 

[YZF73]

Ok, if you want to reference from the FZ6R cam gears. The FZ6 cams would be ILC:102 , ELC:107 (I'm at 0/-2 degree)

But the FZ6 cam gear could be different. Like I mention earlier, 0.008" is about 1 degree. Unless I can measure it on the bike (FZ6) there's no way I can tell you if the cam gear timing are both the same...


As a ref:

1- ILC 104, ELC 107 : Bottom end was good, top end was good too but big flat spot from 6-8K.

2- ILC 104, ELC 109 : Pull like a diesel in the mid range but no top end

3- ILC 104, ELC 105 : Good over the RPM range but feel like I need another 1K at top end (6R soft rev limiter at 12500 RPM)

4- ILC 102, ELC 105 : Still pull strong from 4K, consistent at mid range and great top end! Pull strong up to 12K. Feel like it peak around 10500 - 11K Dyno needed to validate.

So that was what I did. Just had to test all of them to find the sweet spot. Unfortunately no one did it for me. I'm the first and only one so far doing the FZ6 cams swap.

Hope it help. Those are just reference. Every engine response differently.

Sorry, I understand where your coming from now :thumbup:... you've only been able to measure the cams with modified FZ6R pulleys fitted, and the FZ6 ones are possibly different so we don't know the true standard positions.

As you've mentioned the standard positions don't matter all that much except for knowing how much you've moved when making adjustments with the standard pulleys. I'm looking at buying adjustable pulleys so this wouldn't matter as they have scales on them. As previously mentioned, the most important thing would be to ensure there is enough clearance between valves/piston after each adjustment.


Thank you everyone for your input today,

Yamahaboyz

 

[FinalImpact]

The degree wheel goes on the crank. Let's assume here that the STD crank reference mark is spot on... You put the degree wheel with the crank at TDC and the cam gears mark are line up. Use a piece of lock wire or hanger as a pointer line up with 0 on the degree wheel. With a dial on the valve lifter then you note when the needle start moving. IVO! same at 0.040" (1mm) IVO@1mm! continue then do IVC@1mm! then IVC! Repeat for the exhaust cam. Make sure you never loose the zero on the crank...

Afterward you ca do all the graph and thing like that. The bottom line is it doesn't really matter where you are at. The FZ6 cams are good cams. What you need to ask your self is where I want to go from where I'm at. More top end or better mid range?

Advancing the cams will bring the power down the RPM, retarding will bring it up. Reducing overlap will make the engine more "flat curve" and torquy. More overlap will improve top end scavenging... Then mechanically you need to make sure you got all the right clearance.

There's no magic numbers here, just need to do few test and figure out where it's the happiest.

Sound like a lot of fun, hey! :BLAA:

We are on the same page placing it on the crank and measuring the cams. I had stupid attack over the pointer. Which for you, you simply move the pointer to zero based on the marks aka TDC using dial indicator.

 

[stink989]

I found this at work and thought it may come if some use.

 

[Marthy]

I found this at work and thought it may come if some use.

You have no idea how bad I wish I found this information long time ago. This is the difference between the FZ6R and FZ6. I think I end up very close to those numbers... :rockon:

EDIT: The duration are measured at what lift?

I tried I 104 & E 105. It was good but felt like I needed 1K more RPM. I end up with I102 & E105. That all make sense... Thanks.

 

[YZF73]

I found this at work and thought it may come if some use.

May I ask what the name of that document is? Some very useful info indeed.

Thank you very much for posting :thumbup:


Cheers,

Yamahaboyz

 

[stink989]

It was found in a new model training book from yamaha aus. It compared the fz6 to the xj6 showing differences and why they did it for the whole bike.

 

[fazil]

What does the book say about the cam difference?
Do they have the same engine and intake?
Which one has more torque?

 

[YZF73]

It was found in a new model training book from yamaha aus. It compared the fz6 to the xj6 showing differences and why they did it for the whole bike.

Interesting... If you happen to get access to it again, would you be able to take the part no. down if it happens to have one? :thumbup: Yamaha seems to be putting part no's on almost everything of theirs nowadays :BLAA:


Thanks again,

Yamahaboyz

 

[stink989]

This is all the stuff to do with the engine. Nope no part number.

 

[stink989]

I came across the 2004 model training and it has the fz6 when first released and shows the differences between it and the 2003 r6. The same as I posted with the fz6 and the xj6. I will have to see if I can take some photos