Camshaft profile, anyone know the specs???

[fazil]

As both the intake and exhaust lift are different, an other difference in part numbers is "exhaust inner" valve part number.
I don't know if we should change them also...
But i won't play with rev limiter. So no need may be.

 

[Marthy]

Hey Marthy and "everyone else", I've been at bit preoccupied to dig in to this like I'd wished too as I'd love to compare them (all three)
Anyway, Marthy who rides a R is posting good content! Thanks man!


As you test your 'R' where is the ignition timing set? And how are you checking it? Better yet, do you have pictures of your degree wheels set while setting the CAM timing on this and I'd bet there are many here who haven't seen such things!

Do you care to show how you tension the timing chain to get results? This is a case in point where you DO NOT want to turn the engine backwards or the indicated value from a degree wheel would be lie!

Thanks for sharing. . .

As far as ignition timing advance I pick up from the FZ1 forum. I did the 3-4 deg. advance. That was 0.021" on the crank trigger wheel. I didn't find much info on the 6R ign timing other than 9 deg. adv a idle. So not sure what's going on pass that. But that was much better...

Now if you refer as cam timing I made a little tool out of a 12mm socket. If you want to borrow it just PM me and I will mail it to you. I don't really need it for now. But I just clamp the socket on the crank trigger bolt and just use a piece of lock wire to indicate the 0 (zero). Then I have a dial indicator that I put on the lifter to measure lift/duration.

If you just want to adjust yours, 0.008" slot at the cam gear is 1 degree at the crank.

If we assume that the FZ6 and R6 cams are very close to be the same and timing might be the only main difference, here's my recommendation.

There's no big magic in there, no magic numbers. Event might be different from one bike to the other. So If your peak HP is close to where it should be I won't mess with the intake cam. If you wish to improve the bottom end and mid range, you can advance the intake cam about 2 degree. (slot 0.016")

If you're happy with the peak HP and want to improve it a bit, retard the exhaust cam 2-3 degree.

Like I said before, it's hard to know where to go when you don't know where you're at. It's just a matter of testing here and there and take notes. This is how you build up a "data base" of what's going on. I tested +2 and -2 degree on the exhaust cam last week. It's like riding 2 different bike. Advancing the exhaust cam made the power curve flat and very easy to manage. (Would be good if my wife was going to ride my bike) Then retarding the cam improve the top end rush... Like something I want to drive...lol :BLAA:

So you're right, you can't really spin backward. If you pass... you need to keep going and stop at the right place. If you run the hydraulic timing chain tensioner, it a PITA! Because you need to crank it back in and the oil pressure build up push it back out. So I figure out that putting the valve cover bolts back in block the holes so the oil don't come out. Then you need to make sure that all the timing mark are at the right spot, hold the chain slider with a screw driver so you don't loose the tension and turn by hand 1-2 turn to make sure everything clear. After that I just turn the engine over for few second while holding the tension on the slider. You keep doing it until the chain keep the tension. If you have the mechanical tensioner, it's much easier!

Hope it help...

 

[Marthy]

True - fully machined to keep the weight down. Likely not castings either. . .

I did the math on the lift between the Fiz and the R6S.


FZ6 from manual:
Intake 32.450–32.550 mm (1.2776–1.2815 in) lobe A
Intake 24.950–25.050 mm (0.9823–0.9862 in) base B
=======================
Intake Lift: 7.5mm (0.295 in)


Exhaust 32.450–32.550 mm (1.2776–1.2815 in) lobe A
Exhaust 24.950–25.050 mm (0.9823–0.9862 in) base B
=======================
Exhaust Lift: 7.5mm (0.295 in)


R6S from manual:
Intake:
33.45 (1.317 in) lobe A
25.12 (0.989) base B
=======================
Intake Lift: 8.33mm (0.327 in)

Exhaust:
32.55 (1.282 in) lobe A
25.07 (0.987 in) base B
=======================
Exhaust Lift: 7.48mm (0.294 in)




So, you might wanna check the coils on the intake and make certain you don't stalk them and bend a valve when it sees the the rev limiter! Do the springs have the same rates, installed heights, are the keepers or spring retainers different to handle the RPMs? I never looked!

Funny! The R6 intake cam has more lift but the exhaust is about the same. Yes I measure all the springs clearance and max lift. I'm max out on lift with the FZ6 cams. I left the exhaust cam valve clearance on the high side to be safe.

Here's some info I was able to dig out...

Min Piston to Valve Clearance: I= 0.040" (0.030" min) R1
E= 0.080" (0.050" min) R1

Valve Spring Retainer to Valve Guide: 0.030"

Valve Spring Coil Bind: Min clearance 0.015" between each coil

On top of my head the exhaust cam was close to 0.030"... so with my valve adjustment to 0.012" I end up with 0.035" Just a little safety in case of over rev...

 

[fazil]

you can advance the intake cam about 2 degree

How do you degree cams?
Do you have variable cam gears?
Or just adjusted from cam chain.
I wonder how many degrees change if you skipping one tooth from the cam chain

 

[Marthy]

How do you degree cams?
Do you have variable cam gears?
Or just adjusted from cam chain.
I wonder how many degrees change if you skipping one tooth from the cam chain

The cam gear got 34T, so this is 10.6 degree on the cam= 21 degree on the crank... that's a no go! I tried to use the other holes but it was too much! All you need it slot the cam gear around 0.008" to get 1 degree... not much!!!

I use a Dremel with a 3/16" dia stone. Slot the hole 0.008" give you 1 degree. I put the bolt back in the slot to make sure it goes all the way to the end of the +0.008 slot. So 2 degree is 0.016".

I'm not sure how much you can advance or retard the cams on the FZ6. You need to make sure to verify the clearance if you go more than 2 degree.

 

[FinalImpact]

Just my 2 cents so feel free to chuck it, but the oil pressure and timing chain effort (SPITA) Agreed - there, so what if you don't do all that work and just rotate the crank through a couple times? The tensioner is on the slack side and shouldn't change the cam timing. The guide/chain on the PULLING side of the crank gear is near straight between the crank and the exhaust cam so the oil pressure would only help the situation IF the valve spring tension applied to the CAM(s)) is trying to rotate ahead (clockwise) making slack in the tension side of the chain which is entirely possible.
Have you tried doing it without the oil pump under pressure to see if the results vary? You are on the safe side in your current practice so, its likely best. . . I see me running out of patience to do this. Oh to have it on a dyno while such work is being done!

 

[Marthy]

Just my 2 cents so feel free to chuck it, but the oil pressure and timing chain effort (SPITA) Agreed - there, so what if you don't do all that work and just rotate the crank through a couple times? The tensioner is on the slack side and shouldn't change the cam timing. The guide/chain on the PULLING side of the crank gear is near straight between the crank and the exhaust cam so the oil pressure would only help the situation IF the valve spring tension applied to the CAM(s)) is trying to rotate ahead (clockwise) making slack in the tension side of the chain which is entirely possible.
Have you tried doing it without the oil pump under pressure to see if the results vary? You are on the safe side in your current practice so, its likely best. . . I see me running out of patience to do this. Oh to have it on a dyno while such work is being done!

By the book it should work the way you said. But in real life when the cam pass the max lift, it accelerate (Fall off) and pick up the chain slack. Thrust me... I had to remove the adjuster and replace the timing mark few time... SSSOOOOOO easy to make a mistake. Triple check the marks as you go is a must! What happen when you crank the oil pressure the oil goes out by the holes (4 of them if I can remember) from the valve cover bolt. So if they piss oil... the engine don't build pressure... the adjuster don't go out. So you need to hold the pressure with s screw driver on the slider on the back side to do what the adjuster should do until the adjuster is charge with oil and all out where it should be. It's doesn't takes that much longer, just get those few bolts finger tight and hold the guide and crank for about 20-30 second, it's all it take. Maybe next time i can shoot a quick video?

 

[FinalImpact]

Thanks for confirmation! So, if you want repeatable info repeat the same process or your results will vary.

I recall some bikes ran an external plumbing for oil pressure to the tensioner and these would be good ones to apply some air too! Oh - to have a garage again!

 

[Marthy]

Thanks for confirmation! So, if you want repeatable info repeat the same process or your results will vary.

I recall some bikes ran an external plumbing for oil pressure to the tensioner and these would be good ones to apply some air too! Oh - to have a garage again!

I'm sure there's better ways to do it. But it's been working for me so far. That's the way I always did things in racing. If you do something one way and never had problem, keep it that way. Doing the same things always the same way will most than likely give you the same result.

 

[fazil]

I found some cheap R6 Kent brand aftermarket race cam shafts on ebay.

R6 Supersport Kent Cams | eBay


What do you think about these cams?
I guess these cams are for peak power not for low end.

 

[fazil]

I've got the R6 cams now. ı've got them form ebay. They have 4000 miles of use as seller said.
They look sweet

here are the pictures.:
(exhaust on the left side, intake on the right)

Exhaust:



Intake:

Now i'll need a variable cam gear for intake to advance it 2-4 degrees for low end torque.
i'll leave the exhaust as is.
I bougt a cam chain tensioner also. I'll change it when i do all this stuff.

 

[YZF73]

Having been chatting with Marthy today over PM about Camshaft Timing adjustment, I thought it would be best if we continue from now on within this thread, so that others can have access to the info in the future.

Previously within this thread, Marthy gave data for the Camshaft Timing on both the '07 R6 and '04 FZ6 camshafts (If Marthy could confirm that these are indeed the standard figures for these models that would be great :thumbup.

Whilst considering the data, I decided it would be best to quickly draw up some diagrams in CAD as a visual aid, which I've attached to this post.

Edit: Diagram showing '04 FZ6 Valve Timing depicts the timing for FZ6 camshafts fitted with modified FZ6R pulleys, and the exhaust cam retarded 2 degrees.


Cheers,

Yamahaboyz

 

[YZF73]

As promise, here's the number I have for the 04 FZ6 cams.

IVO: 45 BTDC (6 @ 1mm)
IVC: 78 ABDC (35 @ 1mm)
ILC: 104.5

(180+6+35) /2 -6=104.5 degree

EVO: 60 BBDC (40 @ 1mm)
EVC: 27 ATDC (5 @ 1mm)

ELC: 107.5 degree

I do not remember the total lift of the cams. But that can be found in the FZ6 manual. (max lobe measurement - base circle)

Hope it help. Those number could be a snug different on the FZ6... that's what I was hoping to find also. Since those are about the same numbers as the 07 R6. My educated guess would be to compare the FZ6 and R6 cam gears. Maybe the only difference is the way the cams are timed. You will be amaze what 1 or 2 degree does. (.006" slot in the cam gear is about 1 degree... give and take)

Just been doing some calculations, best approximation for clearance between cylinder head and piston at TDC is 3mm, I'm not sure whether there's a better way of determining this.

As far as I can understand, the values labelled ILC and ELC depict the amount of degrees the valves are at maximum lift? Again Marthy your clarification on this and the calculation used to determine these would be much appreciated :thumbup:


Cheers,

Yamahaboyz

 

[Marthy]

Here's what I found digging around the WWW.

Piston - Valve clerance I= 0.050, E=0.080"

But I also found that for a R1 I=0.040" and E=0.050

(my exhaust were very close to 0.040... even kind of 0.035" So I left my valve adjustment to the max, even got 0.013" on one and left it like that)

Valve Spring retainer to valve guide: 0.030" min.

Valve Springs coil bind clearance: 0.015 between each coil min.

I use to calculate LC measuring degree 0.020 on each side of max lift and take the average. But the norm is the way I did shown (180+6+35) /2 -6=104.5 degree

I'll try to help as much as I can, but at the end of the day I don't have a FZ6 to validate any numbers. So someone is going to have to take the plunge. LOL

 

[FinalImpact]

Just been doing some calculations, best approximation for clearance between cylinder head and piston at TDC is 3mm, I'm not sure whether there's a better way of determining this.

As far as I can understand, the values labelled ILC and ELC depict the amount of degrees the valves are at maximum lift? Again Marthy your clarification on this and the calculation used to determine these would be much appreciated :thumbup:


Cheers,

Yamahaboyz

I assumed I LC was Intake Lobe Center and Exhaust LC.

As for the TDC piston room, only way I know there is to tear it apart and measure it. Did you see that compression ration calculator I attached to dohbacks thread? It has a ton of conditions I accounted for, but the only way to know is to measure. And because the pistons have valve reliefs, the deck height, Pin height, and chamber height(volume) don't matter as much as with a completely flat top piston.

Do Save As and remove the txt so its compratio2.htm and drag into a browser or double click. It will offer some things to think about.
View attachment 45974

 

[YZF73]

Thank you both of you for your replies,

I assumed I LC was Intake Lobe Center and Exhaust LC.

As for the TDC piston room, only way I know there is to tear it apart and measure it. Did you see that compression ration calculator I attached to dohbacks thread? It has a ton of conditions I accounted for, but the only way to know is to measure. And because the pistons have valve reliefs, the deck height, Pin height, and chamber height(volume) don't matter as much as with a completely flat top piston.

Do Save As and remove the txt so its compratio2.htm and drag into a browser or double click. It will offer some things to think about.
View attachment 45974

Just looked through DHobacks thread and couldn't find the attachment? Oh, and I can't figure out what to do with the link aswell... embarrasing

Here's what I found digging around the WWW.

Piston - Valve clerance I= 0.050, E=0.080"

But I also found that for a R1 I=0.040" and E=0.050

(my exhaust were very close to 0.040... even kind of 0.035" So I left my valve adjustment to the max, even got 0.013" on one and left it like that)

Valve Spring retainer to valve guide: 0.030" min.

Valve Springs coil bind clearance: 0.015 between each coil min.

I use to calculate LC measuring degree 0.020 on each side of max lift and take the average. But the norm is the way I did shown (180+6+35) /2 -6=104.5 degree

I'll try to help as much as I can, but at the end of the day I don't have a FZ6 to validate any numbers. So someone is going to have to take the plunge. LOL

Thank you for clarifying, so I take it as a more accurate way of finding lobe centre rather than just assuming that it's at half duration, as the calculator from earlier in this thread does.

Assuming my diagrams are correct (hopefully , please check), would you say that due to the large overlap of the FZ6 vs. R6, that the exhaust camshaft could be advanced significantly (possibly 6-8 degrees) to provide more mid range whilst avoiding the risk of intake valve/piston contact? (Possibly a combination of retarding the inlet cam slightly and advancing the exhaust cam slightly more may also be an option, something like 2 degrees retard on inlet, and 4 degrees advance on exhaust).

The R6 lifts it's inlet valves slightly more than the FZ6, but the FZ6 begins opening it's inlet valves much earlier than the R6, which makes me think I would want to be cautious in advancing the inlet cam at all.


Thanks again for your input guys,

Yamahaboyz

 

[why_not_Zoidberg?]

Random question to any of you folks that know a lot about engines....did you mostly learn hands on, taking stuff apart, or do you have any books you could recommend? I'm interested in the design characteristics and components involved in motorcycle engines...nothing real specific though, it's just a hobby and I'm curious. Also, feel free to recommend technical type books or websites, I'm a mechanical engineer by day (we didn't do combustion engines in school).:BLAA:

 

[Marthy]

Thank you both of you for your replies,



Just looked through DHobacks thread and couldn't find the attachment? Oh, and I can't figure out what to do with the link aswell... embarrasing




Thank you for clarifying, so I take it as a more accurate way of finding lobe centre rather than just assuming that it's at half duration, as the calculator from earlier in this thread does.

Assuming my diagrams are correct (hopefully , please check), would you say that due to the large overlap of the FZ6 vs. R6, that the exhaust camshaft could be advanced significantly (possibly 6-8 degrees) to provide more mid range whilst avoiding the risk of intake valve/piston contact? (Possibly a combination of retarding the inlet cam slightly and advancing the exhaust cam slightly more may also be an option, something like 2 degrees retard on inlet, and 4 degrees advance on exhaust).

The R6 lifts it's inlet valves slightly more than the FZ6, but the FZ6 begins opening it's inlet valves much earlier than the R6, which makes me think I would want to be cautious in advancing the inlet cam at all.


Thanks again for your input guys,

Yamahaboyz

That's way too much. You loose 6 degree of overlap. That will kill the top end big time for sure, well more like a flat torque curve with no top end. And I bet you don't have enough room to advance 4 degree, or it will be close.

The thing is when you do move the cams around the piston are at TDC. So if you use a screw driver (with electrical tape on the tip so you don't scratch anything) you can use a dial indicator and actually gently push on the lifter to see how much you have before it hit the piston... you need 0.040" or 1 mm min clearance, that's if you TDC is perfectly spot on.

In your case you want to improve mid range. I will adv the exhaust cam 2 degree (slot 0.016") to start and see what happen. That will increase your dynamic CR at low RPM..aka a little more torque and should not kill your top end too much. Cam adjustment are very sensitive and you don't need much to make a good difference.But again, the best thing to do is a little scan +/- 2 degree, that make 4-5 combo then choose what work best for you. I had to do it and end up keeping the last one. That was the best compromise between low and top end.

Always remember, you won't create power. You will only change the engine characteristic. What you gain in the middle you will loose it on top, or the other way around if your goal is top end HP.

 

[YZF73]

That's way too much. You loose 6 degree of overlap. That will kill the top end big time for sure, well more like a flat torque curve with no top end. And I bet you don't have enough room to advance 4 degree, or it will be close.

The thing is when you do move the cams around the piston are at TDC. So if you use a screw driver (with electrical tape on the tip so you don't scratch anything) you can use a dial indicator and actually gently push on the lifter to see how much you have before it hit the piston... you need 0.040" or 1 mm min clearance, that's if you TDC is perfectly spot on.

In your case you want to improve mid range. I will adv the exhaust cam 2 degree (slot 0.016") to start and see what happen. That will increase your dynamic CR at low RPM..aka a little more torque and should not kill your top end too much. Cam adjustment are very sensitive and you don't need much to make a good difference.But again, the best thing to do is a little scan +/- 2 degree, that make 4-5 combo then choose what work best for you. I had to do it and end up keeping the last one. That was the best compromise between low and top end.

Always remember, you won't create power. You will only change the engine characteristic. What you gain in the middle you will loose it on top, or the other way around if your goal is top end HP.

I was just quite surprised at the difference in overlap between the FZ6 and the '07 R6, thinking that the FZ6's overlap was excessive I was considering ways to safely minimise it, as smaller overlaps lend themselves to increased torque.

Also seems as though the FZ6 has a very large duration on the inlet cam, puts retarding the inlet cam to reduce overlap out of the question as the inlet valve already closes very late.

Running myself through the engine cycle, I can't see any danger in advancing the exhaust cam mechanically speaking as the piston/valve clearance is increasing, you would be decreasing the piston/valve clearance when retarding it though.


Yamahaboyz

 

[YZF73]

Random question to any of you folks that know a lot about engines....did you mostly learn hands on, taking stuff apart, or do you have any books you could recommend? I'm interested in the design characteristics and components involved in motorcycle engines...nothing real specific though, it's just a hobby and I'm curious. Also, feel free to recommend technical type books or websites, I'm a mechanical engineer by day (we didn't do combustion engines in school).:BLAA:

I feel a mix of both hands on and theory is the best way to learn about this stuff, that's how I learn't it :thumbup:

Hillier's Fundamentals of Motor Vehicle Technology is a good book for automotive technology in general, however you may want to look for a book that focuses more specifically on engine technology if that's what you're interested in as Hillier's won't provide much in the way of design variation and it's affect on performance.


Hope this helps,

Yamahaboyz