Dyno tune with CO adjustment Leo Vince

[Nightshader]

looking at them now they are both 24 dose that mean they were actually at 0?

i mean if i went plus 24 on both would the bike of added i to the original setting? ie

if original seting were 10 and i put +24 would the bike of shown the seting as 34 or would i of needed to to go +34 when inputting the points?

Just did my '08, both where zero. I'm quite sure the values we see are absolute, not relative. Some reports indicate the starting values can be something else then both zero, if they where relative everybody should have reported two zero's.

Didn't run with my new settings yet, but I hope the V-twin sound goes away on idle ( that started after installing LeoVince SBK carbon ). My bike does not pop that much on deceleration, it makes almost no exhaust sound during (in contrast with the average report here). I might tune-up the idle RPM because it might be too lean if I hear nothing, r8? Anyway, after a few rides I'll report back (from the Netherlands, so euro version).

 

[Randomchaos]

Just ran the wire on my bike, grounded it directly to the battery. Works perfectly, my values were also both at 0. Set the C1 to 13 and C2 to 18 (heard of others saying the 2nd setting needs to be a little richer?). Took it for a quick spin around the block, nice and clean decel now, no more popping. I am running the SS Scorpion pipes, original style. Need tot ake it out on the open road and see how she does at high RPMs and how it effected the acceleration. Plan on tweaking it a little bit more with the ever so cheap "seat of my pants" dyno

Also, would anybody be interested in trading their Leos for some Scorpions with some extra cash from me? Miss that sound of my Leos from back in the day.

 

[mikw73]

In order to satisfy my curiosity regarding this, I figured I'd call Yamaha Motors Scandinavia today to really get an answer.

They told me, quite opposite to what this thread says about the C1 and C2 settings, that they certainly aren't the settings for the 1-4 and 2-3 cylinders It's rather the settings for different rpm's. C1 is in the range idle up to 3000 rpm's and C2 is from 3000 and up.

Go figure??

man i heard this thing too, a mechanic told me in the way "you can play a little bit with the power range of your bike by setting the CO1 abd CO2" and went through explaining that if i increase or decrease c01 and c02 you can add a little bit of power on a specified rpm range, but i've read all over the internet that it is for other settings and didn't believed him, i thought after all he wasn't a yamaha stealership how should he know.
now that im reading this i wonder how carefull must i be when reading things on the internet

I think the confusion about the cylinders comes from the service manual. Page 3-22, "ADJUSTING THE EXHAUST GAS VOLUME", reads:

+++++++++++++++
5. Press the “SELECT” or “RESET” buttons to
select the “C1” or “C2”.
C1=“#1” and “#4”
C2=“#2” and “#3”
+++++++++++++++

Which sounds unequivocal, but it makes more sense to me if it were for different rpm ranges. But I don't design motorcycles for a living.

 

[mikw73]

Also, I have not run my wire and checked my values, but I did replace my battery this spring. And I seem to recall the bike being more rideable before the battery change. So my C0/C1 values might have been reset to 0/0, which might account for my problem, which is basically harsh throttle on/off at high rpm and high altitude. It doesn't seem too bad around town (about 1000 ft, 300 m) but in the mountains on the curves, (~3000 - ~6000 ft, ~900 - ~1800 m) it's a little nasty.

 

[mrphotoman]

That is a dangerous game changing around numbers that affect your a/f ratio without knowing the affects. You could be running lean at the bottom, too rich in the middle and lean again at the top or any mix of that.

Dont ever tune without a wideband reading your a/f mix or you are asking for trouble.

 

[mikw73]

That is a dangerous game changing around numbers that affect your a/f ratio without knowing the affects. You could be running lean at the bottom, too rich in the middle and lean again at the top or any mix of that.

Dont ever tune without a wideband reading your a/f mix or you are asking for trouble.

That's excellent advice. As I understand these things, Yamaha has thousands of dollars of equipment that they use to set these things up the way they work best and conform to EPA regs. Altering them pretty much constitutes a vote of no confidence in both Yamaha's expertise and the EPA's guidance. Some might call that a no-brainer in the case of the government agency, but I still like to be cautious. I think Yamaha is probably doing the best they can given the rules, and the rules are there for reasons. Still though, my bike is hard to control if I apply throttle in a turn.

I at least wanted to know if my readings were reset to zero, so I first called the Yamaha dealer, who said everything was hard-coded; an "open loop" system. I haven't had any problems with my local dealership, but my bike's paid for, and being a suspicious type I ran a wire and checked. My values were 13 and 21. Not reset to zero after sitting for a couple of months with a dead battery, and for a couple of days with no battery. Looks like the numbers stayed on my system even without power.

I probably will change them once or twice and do a test ride or ten, but without even knowing if they operate on a per cylinder pair basis or an rpm range basis, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. I've pretty much settled on buying a PC III. I'd rather get the ECU Unleashed thing done, as that will accomplish much more, but all I really want is smoother roll-on, and the PC III will accomplish that for less.

 

[mrphotoman]

That's excellent advice. As I understand these things, Yamaha has thousands of dollars of equipment that they use to set these things up the way they work best and conform to EPA regs. Altering them pretty much constitutes a vote of no confidence in both Yamaha's expertise and the EPA's guidance. Some might call that a no-brainer in the case of the government agency, but I still like to be cautious. I think Yamaha is probably doing the best they can given the rules, and the rules are there for reasons. Still though, my bike is hard to control if I apply throttle in a turn.

I at least wanted to know if my readings were reset to zero, so I first called the Yamaha dealer, who said everything was hard-coded; an "open loop" system. I haven't had any problems with my local dealership, but my bike's paid for, and being a suspicious type I ran a wire and checked. My values were 13 and 21. Not reset to zero after sitting for a couple of months with a dead battery, and for a couple of days with no battery. Looks like the numbers stayed on my system even without power.

I probably will change them once or twice and do a test ride or ten, but without even knowing if they operate on a per cylinder pair basis or an rpm range basis, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. I've pretty much settled on buying a PC III. I'd rather get the ECU Unleashed thing done, as that will accomplish much more, but all I really want is smoother roll-on, and the PC III will accomplish that for less.

I posted up a thread with pics/vids when i installed a wideband on my fz6 last week and datalogged, updated my a/f ratio. It is really simple and it is the right way to tune your bike/car. You can't just randomly change numbers and think "yeah that looks about right" and then fine tune it with your butt dyno lol. You could be running super lean and blow your motor or super rich and blow your motor lol or at best case be running a less efficient a/f ratio and be down on power than your stock tune.


Edit: Using a fuel tuner and going to the dyno or using a wideband at home is the way to go. The LC-1 wideband I am using is the same one that the majority of dyno shops use btw. Hope this info is of use/found helpful for those interested in picking up a few hp safely.

 

[mikw73]

That's great info. :thumbup: I called a nearby Power Commander dealer the other day and asked about pricing for dynoing the bike and a Power Commander III. They said the PC III would be about $270, and the dyno about another $250 or so. But they asked what I had on the bike as far as mods go, and I said it was all stock. I've done no performance mods. They said the dyno would be useless, and I'd be fine with the stock map in the PC III. I really don't want to spend the extra $250 if I don't have to, so I think that's what I'll do. I'm sure dynoing it might get things closer to perfect, but all I'm really doing this for is to soften the throttle roll-on. The bike's plenty fast for my purposes, and I like the stock sound and look well enough. The Two Bros. exhausts do look and sound great, but for the money I don't have plans to get one.

 

[Jacobien]

Ooh, found out that CO1 and CO2 does not denote cylinders 1&4 and 2&3 respectively. It denotes the air/fuel mixture at certain throttle openings and RPM's. [Did not see the conclusive evidence in this thread, hope I am not duplicating a post]

Anyway, I read it in a 2003/4 R6 SS kit manual by YEC.

The R6 has CO1-4, we only have CO1-2. So I predict that the lower CO1 setting is for a leaner mixture at lower RPM's.

So it is not necessarily for keeping cylinder 2&3 cooler...

However, I may attest that the CO adjust definitely smooths out things and may even unlock a bit of the H&P's (Horses and Powers).

 

[ChevyFazer]

Ooh, found out that CO1 and CO2 does not denote cylinders 1&4 and 2&3 respectively. It denotes the air/fuel mixture at certain throttle openings and RPM's. [Did not see the conclusive evidence in this thread, hope I am not duplicating a post]

Anyway, I read it in a 2003/4 R6 SS kit manual by YEC.

The R6 has CO1-4, we only have CO1-2. So I predict that the lower CO1 setting is for a leaner mixture at lower RPM's.

So it is not necessarily for keeping cylinder 2&3 cooler...

However, I may attest that the CO adjust definitely smooths out things and may even unlock a bit of the H&P's (Horses and Powers).

Where did you get that info from? The info saying that it's for af ratios at different rpms instead of 1&2 and 3&4

 

[Jacobien]

Document attached: Page 29 per Adobe, or page 24 of the document.

 

[ChevyFazer]

That info is for the r6 which has 4 co adjustments, our bikes don't work like that, the end product is a adjusted af ratio by changing the amount of fuel cyl 1&2 and then 3&4 get. but the main purpose for it to be on our bikes is for emission regulations

 

[Jacobien]

Uhm...ok.

There seems to be conflicting views on the CO1 & 2 denoting cylinders or RPM ranges. It makes sense that the CO 1 & 2 depicts cylinders as opposed to RPM ranges, as 2 settings are not sufficient for the minimum adjustment needed for any RPM range and A/F ratio...

However, I have been fiddling with the CO settings and are of the opinion that the adjustments are related to RPM ranges as opposed to cylinders. This is backed by the fact that the R6 has no setting for cylinders. So then why does the one bike have something and the other something so different?

Anyway, adding CO's = gains and that is all that matters.:thumbup:

 

[ChevyFazer]

Uhm...ok.

There seems to be conflicting views on the CO1 & 2 denoting cylinders or RPM ranges. It makes sense that the CO 1 & 2 depicts cylinders as opposed to RPM ranges, as 2 settings are not sufficient for the minimum adjustment needed for any RPM range and A/F ratio...

However, I have been fiddling with the CO settings and are of the opinion that the adjustments are related to RPM ranges as opposed to cylinders. This is backed by the fact that the R6 has no setting for cylinders. So then why does the one bike have something and the other something so different?

Anyway, adding CO's = gains and that is all that matters.:thumbup:

Mainly because even though our bikes are based off the r6 engine it has a completely different ecu and tuned for everyday drivability vs racing, someone correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have a shop manual in front of me but I'm 90% sure our shop manual says that c1 is for cyl 1&4 and c2 is for 2&3. But yes the end product is a altered air to fuel ratio, because by going up or down on your co it increase the fuel into those cylinders or decreases it. Is a good idea to write down your stock settings to remember. Mine were c1 -27 c2 -13 and I moved both of them up evenly and I think I have moved them up both 17 points, unhooking the battery everytime I made an adjustment. I choose going up 17 points but the good old fashioned butt dyno in 6th gear wot, and how it reacted and how long it took to climb to top speed, I originally had moved it up +30 which was WAY too rich and I keep leaning it out until the bike felt right.

I'll also add that the #1 reason why our bikes are different from the r6's and even have a co adjust on them is for it to meet emission regulations, when the bikes first came over here they were not emission friendly, so instead of sending the bikes back Yamaha needed a way for the dealers to fix the issue, so they added a simpler co adjustment, the dealers would stick a sniffer in the tailpipe and adjust the co levels until they were where they needed to be, that is also why every bike has different co values

 

[philz]

Interesting thread.

My bike is a UK bike and the standard settings are -3 and 16 so I've just added 10 to each one and will see how that feels on the ride to work tomorrow.

 

[philz]

Definitely felt smoother today, must less jerkiness and harshness.

Just tried setting them to 10 and 15 so I guess I'll just keep tweaking and see what works for me.

 

[FinalImpact]

Ooh, found out that CO1 and CO2 does not denote cylinders 1&4 and 2&3 respectively. It denotes the air/fuel mixture at certain throttle openings and RPM's. [Did not see the conclusive evidence in this thread, hope I am not duplicating a post]

Anyway, I read it in a 2003/4 R6 SS kit manual by YEC.

The R6 has CO1-4, we only have CO1-2. So I predict that the lower CO1 setting is for a leaner mixture at lower RPM's.

So it is not necessarily for keeping cylinder 2&3 cooler...

However, I may attest that the CO adjust definitely smooths out things and may even unlock a bit of the H&P's (Horses and Powers).

Mainly because even though our bikes are based off the r6 engine it has a completely different ecu and tuned for everyday drivability vs racing, someone correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have a shop manual in front of me but I'm 90% sure our shop manual says that c1 is for cyl 1&4 and c2 is for 2&3. But yes the end product is a altered air to fuel ratio, because by going up or down on your co it increase the fuel into those cylinders or decreases it. Is a good idea to write down your stock settings to remember. Mine were c1 -27 c2 -13 and I moved both of them up evenly and I think I have moved them up both 17 points, unhooking the battery everytime I made an adjustment. I choose going up 17 points but the good old fashioned butt dyno in 6th gear wot, and how it reacted and how long it took to climb to top speed, I originally had moved it up +30 which was WAY too rich and I keep leaning it out until the bike felt right.

I'll also add that the #1 reason why our bikes are different from the r6's and even have a co adjust on them is for it to meet emission regulations, when the bikes first came over here they were not emission friendly, so instead of sending the bikes back Yamaha needed a way for the dealers to fix the issue, so they added a simpler co adjustment, the dealers would stick a sniffer in the tailpipe and adjust the co levels until they were where they needed to be, that is also why every bike has different co values

^^ Well said Chev!

Ya, our bikes have group fire injection (a single wire fires two injectors) and and waste spark ignition (a single coil fires two plugs). There is NO Comparing the R6 to our bike in regards to the ECM, what it does and how it does it.

Just trying to clear the air as incorrect information has been thrown in here.

One area I do have heartache with is this:
Assuming the Yamaha tuning gods needed to "balance" the inner and outer cylinders they have no WAY of reading the independent cylinder hydrocarbons. 4 into 1 with a single outlet does not allow fine tuning at this level.
So - although I agree 100% its fueling banks 1 & 4 and 2 & 3 per C1/C2 it now becomes more complex unless you do some something like the following:

Cut the spark and measure cylinder performance (power, vacuum drop, efficiency)
Measure exhaust gas temperature (IR, or direct), neither accurate for emissions purposes IMO.
Use the adjust function in combination with Throttle body vacuum readings.

So, without taking the exhaust off, how does one measure which cylinder is doing what? Although this might explain the huge variance in some bikes being -27/+5 and others being 0/0 and the other spectrum of +10/+25.

It may also explain why some don't feel any difference as their bike is already optimal (richer than necessary) i.e running > +15 etc.

Although not accurate, a tech could run each pair up and down repeatedly through a range of "-" and "+" and average out its effects with an o2 or hydrocarbon sniffer. Repeat on the other 2 cylinders. Pick the sweat spot where both pairs provided some calculated ideal value and BAM. There is your number based upon what was DONE vs what its doing. Because they don't know which pair is responsible for what until its value is moved then monitor the combined pair for total emissions. One effects the other as it changes the fill volume of the cylinders when the idle speed changes.


For What Little Its Worth (FWLIW); US, 08, settings were 0/0. With 2Bro, filter box mod, 89 octane fuel, and 150ft off the deck (Sea level +150), my bike is much smoother having more fuel added. 25/25. It rev's quicker, pulls better, pops more on decel, and it may have made the chop worse regarding off throttle fueling. I need to ride it more to determine that.
Because its running unadulterated fuel (meth free), the plug colors now look chocolate brown as opposed to stark white. Old school tuning eye says its getting more fuel due to plug color.

JJD952 - tuning

 

[alastair]

Hello,

after reading every thread and post on this, I had a call with my local Yamaha dealer in Austria (Vienna) and definitely had to dig out this thread here. It's the biggest yamaha dealer in Austria. I was really curious about which setting does what (C1 and C2). They actually told me, that C1 is for cylinders #1 & #2 and C2 is for Cylinders #3 and #4 and NOT #1 & #4 and #2 and #3 regarding the temperature issues. This makes totally sense to me, because the R6 uses C1 to C4 for every single cylinder too. The FZ6 adjustment possibilities would be the same, just more basic/rudimentary. I talked to other mechanics and they told me, that the temperature drift between cyl #2 & #3 and #1 and #4 is neglectable. It's pretty hard to tell which of these 3 theories is true, unless you're a mechanic, but the intel of my local dealer sounds pretty comprehensible to me, according to all the other facts we got so far.

Best regards from Vienna,
Alex

 

[Motogiro]

:welcome: to this great forum! Thank you for this information and it looks like the previous info was possibly referencing firing/mechanical sequence of the motor and possibly reference to the coils. 2 coils are used for (#2 and #3) and for (#1 and #4)

This may be where there is confusion because the fuel injection is depicted in the electrical schematic the same way the coils are configured. There is 1 signal controlling 2 fuel injectors at a time.
I will research the schematic to see where the CO adjustments might be related to temperature sensors for cylinders (1 and 2) and (3 and 4)

 

[FinalImpact]

Years ago I connected an Oscope to the injectors and ran those numbers up and down the flag pole. It makes zero since to fuel the cylinders differently while it does make since and was verified that c1 is for idle up. C2 is mid range.

If it were controlling fueling per cylinder vs range you could change one value only and see the plug color change on 2 cylinders as well as make your engine run rough. Neither of these are true.

JM2C....