Timing, timing timing!!

[DHoback]

OK, so this may be premature(I dont think so...but) I have been playing around with the timing advance on my 09. I filed the detent on the ignition rotor until I had a perfect 2deg, 4deg and finally 6deg advance. I switched to NGK CR10E plugs. I have not been able to fully test it as the rain just wont stop here, but the initial feedback from the bike is very good! My plugs show a perfect advance line on the ground strap. The bike idles super clean, and throttle response is amaizing. I will continue this venture for now. I need to get some higher octain fuel as Im on 87 and some WOT pulls. I have some theory in my head that made me act on this(I will explain further when the final results are in) The trade off is GOING to be running 93, but if the gains are worth it Im OK with that. In anycase, it is very interesting and gives me something to do on the bike to keep me occupied. MORE TO COME!!

 

[gusss]

I love to hear more from this...
Keep us posted

 

[Motogiro]

Have you measured timing advance in 1st through 6th gears. The reason I'm asking and interested is many bikes retard timing 1st through 5th gears and some companies make a Timing Retard Eliminator (TRE) Which gives the bike it's full timing back with some much improved grunt. I think the bike uses a Gear Position Sensor (GPS) of some type because that's what is used for aftermarket gear indicators. When installing those gear position readouts I believe they learn the voltage for each gear position from a GPS. Usually a GPS would exist for the timing retardation unless it's used for different fuel mapping in the lower gears on the FZ6

 

[DHoback]

Yes, there is a reduction in lower gears. What I am doing is a mechanical advance. Regardless of the gear induced retard, timing will still be 6 degs advanced in any gear up to and inculding 6th. I swill spill thr beans on everything when I know it works correctly.

David Hoback

 

[tuningfork]

factorypro has 4 degree rotor kit for the 03-05 R6.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a-XkUddWsc&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - ‪Sportbikehowto.com - Factory Pro Ignition Rotor Install‬‏[/ame]

 

[Guitar Man]

Subscribed. Sounds interesting. Hope it works.

 

[DHoback]

OK, rain finally eased up here(although it's supposed to be back all next week) Took the bike out. Filled up with some Shell 93. Did some WOT pulls. The bike is running stronger than ever. It has responded very well to the extra timing. I dont know of any dynos around me so no hard evidence, but I played with going back to stock and there is a very noticeable increase in power with it advanced. Besides that, the bike just runs better, period! Better idle, lightning throttle response and ALL of the decell popping is gone. Mind you, I dont even have a power commander yet. So, there are still more gains there. I believe it has already crossed the 100WHP barrier without the power commander.

And for those that havnt seen it, here ya go!

 

[champion221elite]

This thread has captured my interest. On a side note, does advancing the timing have any adverse effect on engine longevity?

My grandpa always said the brightest bulb burns out the fastest. Just wondering if that applies in this situation.

 

[iSteve]

I'm guessing a little advance won't hurt these engines. But it does put more stress on piston rods and bearings. Too much advance will eventually mean the plug is firing way too early during compression and melt the pistons.

 

[FZ6jersey]

To the OP can you into more detail about how you did this?
Thanks,
Josh

 

[RJ2112]

This thread has captured my interest. On a side note, does advancing the timing have any adverse effect on engine longevity?

My grandpa always said the brightest bulb burns out the fastest. Just wondering if that applies in this situation.

Spark advance is supposed to be set so that the flame front starts pushing the piston down, right after it reaches Top Dead Center.... If the spark is delayed, that means you lose power because the piston is not being pushed down through it's entire stroke. Less power, in the power stroke.

I'd have to wonder what the programming on this thing looks like, from Yamaha. Every motor has to have variation in the spark advance, to compensate for higher RPM. The flame front advances at the same speed, regardless of RPM.... in order to keep the expanding gasses pushing down on the piston through the whole firing stroke, the spark needs to be advanced in time to account for the higher speed of the piston's rise.

The relation between advance and crankshaft speed should be linear. If you ideally have 5° advance at idle, the advance has to get 'longer' with RPM. Whatever the change from 5° is at 3K (from 5 to 7°?), it's going to be 2X that at 6K, 3X at 9K and 4X at 12K.

My concern with this is whether Yamaha accomplishes the 'excessive' retardation at low RPM by programming the ECU, rather than by mechanically delaying the timing.

If it's programmed, the changes you 'see' at low RPM aren't going to be the same at high RPM.

I've seen a number of Dyno plots on this board, from bikes made for pretty much every market in the world.... I don't see any of them that make more power down low compared to other markets. I'd expect at least one world market to be selling the 'full zoot' motor.... and I don't know of one.

It might be worth checking to see what p/n there is on the ignition advance plate on a YZFR6 motor of the correct vintage, to see if they 'dumbed it down' on the FZ6...

Sorry, I realized I didn't answer your question directly.

Yes, advancing timing too much can be a Bad Thing. If the spark occurs early enough the expanding gasses of the fuel air charge hit the piston BEFORE top dead center. Pre-Ignition. This leads to the con rod bearings hitting the crank shaft, which is where that death rattle sound comes from on cars that are dieseling after the ignition is shut off. It can lead to melted pistons as well; I'd suspect damage to the rod bearings would happen first.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch -- TANSTAFL

 

[GTPAddict]

If the spark occurs early enough the expanding gasses of the fuel air charge hit the piston BEFORE top dead center. Pre-Ignition. This leads to the con rod bearings hitting the crank shaft, which is where that death rattle sound comes from on cars that are dieseling after the ignition is shut off. It can lead to melted pistons as well; I'd suspect damage to the rod bearings would happen first.

The dieseling sound after the ignition is shut off is actually detonation - the air fuel mixture spontaneously igniting in the cylinder. You are right about the rod bearings take a lot of the impact of too much advance, but (from past experiences with boosted cars cars) I'd be more worried about the pistons chipping due to spark knock.

I have no experience with these engines, but I have been involved with GM supercharged 3800's for some time now. I have personally chipped a piston from running too much advance on too lean an air fuel mixture which resulted in an engine rebuild. There are sooooooo many differences between this engine and the engines in these bikes you really can't compare them, but I would still be worried about running too much advance, too lean an air/fuel mixture (running E10 alone leans out the mixture), and such high compression. Is there a way to modify the ECU's programming? For example, I have HPTuner to modify the programming in my car's PCM.

Maybe I should have worded that a bit different, but I was more asking about the FZ6 engine being as bullet proof as the stock GM 3800 is. Until you mod the 3800, you almost can't hurt it, but after doubling boost pressure and advancing timing you start to hit the engines' mechanical limits. As the OP only advanced the timing by 6 degrees, I would guess you'd have a ways more to go before damaging the engine - unless it's already built to the safe mechanical limits of various the components (pistons, bearings, crank, ect.).

 

[RJ2112]

The dieseling sound after the ignition is shut off is actually detonation - the air fuel mixture spontaneously igniting in the cylinder. ............ Is there a way to modify the ECU's programming? For example, I have HPTuner to modify the programming in my car's PCM.

Maybe I should have worded that a bit different, but I was more asking about the FZ6 engine being as bullet proof as the stock GM 3800 is........

As the OP only advanced the timing by 6 degrees, I would guess you'd have a ways more to go before damaging the engine - unless it's already built to the safe mechanical limits of various the components (pistons, bearings, crank, ect.).

My first concern is the OP hasn't stated which way they are moving the timing, and I haven't seen what the reference is for what the timing is now. Back in the day, it was a simple matter of a timing light, and twisting the distributor to set the advance. It's probably similar.

This is effectively what the OP is doing.... but there's no promise from Yamaha that the programmed spark advance stays constant to the value provided by the pick up he's altering.

 

[Cali rider]

To the OP: Keep in mind that you are changing the timing of both the ignition AND fuel injection with that single pickup...

 

[DHoback]

yes, I understand exactly what Im doing. Thank you for the concern. I have years of experience building and tuning engines. Alot of it with turbocharged engines which can go KB in a hurry. Advancing is done by turning the rotor clockwise. There is a detent that slides into the end of that crank that orients the rotor. I filed down the right side of the detent, allowing the rotor to be turned clockwise. I have also taken several precautions to ward off detonation, ie., colder plugs and going to 93 ontaine. My plugs show perfect color and no signs of detonation. I will have it dynoed when I get the chance. All I can say is there a noticeable power increase.

 

[gusss]

yes, I understand exactly what Im doing. Thank you for the concern. I have years of experience building and tuning engines. Alot of it with turbocharged engines which can go KB in a hurry. Advancing is done by turning the rotor clockwise. There is a detent that slides into the end of that crank that orients the rotor. I filed down the right side of the detent, allowing the rotor to be turned clockwise. I have also taken several precautions to ward off detonation, ie., colder plugs and going to 93 ontaine. My plugs show perfect color and no signs of detonation. I will have it dynoed when I get the chance. All I can say is there a noticeable power increase.

How much is there to file?
I am in to try it...
pics would help.. thanks for your input

 

[DHoback]

OK weather has been awesome for the last couple days. Got some really good runs in today. Bike is making more power than it ever did! Got to 130mph very quickly. 1st is almost useless above 10K rpm, Bike does a 12' oclock. 2nd gets nasty.....feels like the wind is pushing me off the seat. Finally realized Im not being pushed off, Im sliding off. Not coming off the ground, but almost. 3rd and 4th still pull like a freight train! Cant wait to dyno. The 1st naturally aspirated 100whp+ fz6(with proof)

 

[champion221elite]

Looking forward to seeing your results.

 

[gusss]

OK weather has been awesome for the last couple days. Got some really good runs in today. Bike is making more power than it ever did! Got to 130mph very quickly. 1st is almost useless above 10K rpm, Bike does a 12' oclock. 2nd gets nasty.....feels like the wind is pushing me off the seat. Finally realized Im not being pushed off, Im sliding off. Not coming off the ground, but almost. 3rd and 4th still pull like a freight train! Cant wait to dyno. The 1st naturally aspirated 100whp+ fz6(with proof)

Can you please let me know how much did you file?
pics please

 

[DHoback]

Sorry, no pics. Pretty self explanitory. If you dont know what you are doing DO NOT try it.