Timing, timing timing!!

[tcmalker]

sorry for going off topic but this must be said.

Why the heck did you get rid of the undertail exhaust!? That was one of the coolest thing about the FZ6. Yeah you might again a little power (according to you), but it's just fugly, imho.

 

[gusss]

...

If you file the right part of the rotor dent, the rotor will only be turned counter clockwise

and this will result in a retard timing.

 

[DHoback]

Well, oppinions are as they say..... Everyone has one. I HATE undertail exhausts. They are the most restrictive, heaviest and MOST COSTLY exhausts there are. I have a full header back system with the least amount of bends, and one of the best headers ever designed(the 03-05 R6). Velocity is what we are after children.


OK, to the last post, this aint my first rodeo cowboy! Yes, looking at the detent and filing would result in a timig retard as the detent faces inward. Im pretty sure I mentioned advancement is done by turning clockwise. So yes sorry, you file te right side as looking at it on the crankshaft. If your looking at the detent, you have to file the left side.... but then again, if you need to split hairs like this and arent sure, you shouldnt be messing with it in the first place.

 

[Marthy]

Interesting thread. What is the "stock speck" of the FZ6 at idle? 6R is 6.5 degree.

 

[FinalImpact]

Interesting thread. What is the "stock speck" of the FZ6 at idle? 6R is 6.5 degree.

You gonna fiddle with the FZ6R??? This thread is a tad dated so don't hold your breath. . . ECU unleashed will yank the 1, 2, retard if you pay up.
Its too bad the FZ doesn't have knock sensor built in so we could play w/out hurting it. . .

My Speculation has always been that there are gains to be had here if they intentionally locked it out or limited it at the factory. You'd be hero on the other forum! :thumbup:

 

[Marthy]

You gonna fiddle with the FZ6R??? This thread is a tad dated so don't hold your breath. . . ECU unleashed will yank the 1, 2, retard if you pay up.
Its too bad the FZ doesn't have knock sensor built in so we could play w/out hurting it. . .

My Speculation has always been that there are gains to be had here if they intentionally locked it out or limited it at the factory. You'd be hero on the other forum! :thumbup:

I'm already a hero! :BLAA: I'm the only one with FZ6 cams to brake the 80 HP..LOL

Dyno was 78 WHP, the tech told me that he usually gets +5 HP without the heat in his dyno room. (About just big enough to get the bike in) That put me around 82-83.

I got that from the FZ1 Forum, I was just wondering what was the timing of the FZ6 at idle. Can't find any info anywhere... But I did the mod to try. The 3-4 degree seams to be what people do. I turn back on the Auto Tune to make sure it's all still good.

 

[mave2911]

I'm guessing the OP's bike went KABOOM, or there would have been a followup....

Pity, as this was very interesting!

If you get your ECU reflashed, I know they modify the engine deceleration properties (engine braking) so it makes me wonder if this is something they do in the reflash.

This might be a far cheaper way of obtaining at least some of the benefits?

Cheers,
Rick

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm guessing the OP's bike went KABOOM, or there would have been a followup....

Pity, as this was very interesting!

If you get your ECU reflashed, I know they modify the engine deceleration properties (engine braking) so it makes me wonder if this is something they do in the reflash.

This might be a far cheaper way of obtaining at least some of the benefits?

Cheers,
Rick

That up there was his last post here (06-01-2011 04:48 PM). . . Maybe all that extra power got him into trouble?? :don'tknow:

 

[FinalImpact]

factorypro has 4 degree rotor kit for the 03-05 R6.

YouTube - ‪Sportbikehowto.com - Factory Pro Ignition Rotor Install‬‏

Speaking of PICKUP coil; where is it??? MIA. . .

Edit: Assumption on my part: the P/U coil is in the cover not in the block so its not visible in that vid.

 

[Guitar Man]

Yeah......where is that guy? It would be nice to hear how this turned out. I suspect that if he did crater the engine he wouldn't want to post up about it. Be nice if he did though and let the rest of us know that the mod was not a success.

They did have the 4 degree advance rotor for the R6. I wonder if you could go on one of their forums and see if this is a common mod and how successful it is? Mayhaps some research is due.

 

[mave2911]

Problem is GM, is that the R6 motor has some different internals, and ECU etc, so we don't know how suitable it'll be for an FZ6.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[FinalImpact]

Yeah......where is that guy? It would be nice to hear how this turned out. I suspect that if he did crater the engine he wouldn't want to post up about it. Be nice if he did though and let the rest of us know that the mod was not a success.

They did have the 4 degree advance rotor for the R6. I wonder if you could go on one of their forums and see if this is a common mod and how successful it is? Mayhaps some research is due.

There is plenty. . . do a little search. Most started with carbs and kept it going when the F/I came on board but many were gun shy.

 

[Guitar Man]

It would be nice to have some hard evidence. I'm looking, but there's not enough info for me to justify doing it. Still searching.

I don't think I would go 6 degrees if I did it. Maybe 4 max.

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm already a hero! :BLAA: I'm the only one with FZ6 cams to brake the 80 HP..LOL

Dyno was 78 WHP, the tech told me that he usually gets +5 HP without the heat in his dyno room. (About just big enough to get the bike in) That put me around 82-83.

I got that from the FZ1 Forum, I was just wondering what was the timing of the FZ6 at idle. Can't find any info anywhere... But I did the mod to try. The 3-4 degree seams to be what people do. I turn back on the Auto Tune to make sure it's all still good.

So what all have you done to it? Did you use the FZ6 cam gears? Or if you posted somewhere else let me follow the link.

I found one link that discussed the advance of an R6 where they didn't mod the rotor but simply replaced the key with an offset key. Q? Is is also holding the cam gear (same key with only the tip being offset? IDK, didn't look that hard).

It said the key is 0.157" wide and is offset by 0.031" to advance it 4deg. I'm just saying -that's what I read. Do the math on the diameter and see if it comes out right. The other option is to weld up the rotor and move the slot.

 

[Marthy]

So what all have you done to it? Did you use the FZ6 cam gears? Or if you posted somewhere else let me follow the link.

I found one link that discussed the advance of an R6 where they didn't mod the rotor but simply replaced the key with an offset key. Q? Is is also holding the cam gear (same key with only the tip being offset? IDK, didn't look that hard).

It said the key is 0.157" wide and is offset by 0.031" to advance it 4deg. I'm just saying -that's what I read. Do the math on the diameter and see if it comes out right. The other option is to weld up the rotor and move the slot.

I had to use the 6R cam gear (machine bore a bit to fit the FZ6 cams) the chain is different. Then I had to slot the cam gears a bit to time them the way I wanted them. I 104 deg ILC, E 110 deg ILC. As for ign timing the 6R is build on the cheap... no dowel pin. The trigger wheel is stamp with the part that align in the crank groove push out a bit. I just file it down 0.021" to start.

http://www.fz6r-forum.com/forum/f89/camshaft-specs-next-project-23583/

 

[Guitar Man]

Three Secrets of High Performance Engine Building

Looks like a good link for getting an idea of what may be going on in an engine when you advance the timing.

Interesting how the cylinder is suppose to be pushed as opposed to being hammered. If the OP advanced his ignition a full 6 degrees it could have caused the pistons to be hammered down causing more stress and heat in the engine. Which would potentially affect engine life. If ignition occurs say at 4 degrees before TDC and he advanced it to 6 then it would be igniting at 2 degrees after TDC which would not be good since it would be "hammering" the piston down. I think these are things to seriously consider before making a mod like this.

My questions are:

How many degrees before TDC does the fuel air mixture ignite?
And is this a fixed ignition (I seem to think it is) or variable?

 

[Marthy]

Three Secrets of High Performance Engine Building

Looks like a good link for getting an idea of what may be going on in an engine when you advance the timing.

Interesting how the cylinder is suppose to be pushed as opposed to being hammered. If the OP advanced his ignition a full 6 degrees it could have caused the pistons to be hammered down causing more stress and heat in the engine. Which would potentially affect engine life. If ignition occurs say at 4 degrees before TDC and he advanced it to 6 then it would be igniting at 2 degrees after TDC which would not be good since it would be "hammering" the piston down. I think these are things to seriously consider before making a mod like this.

My questions are:

How many degrees before TDC does the fuel air mixture ignite?
And is this a fixed ignition (I seem to think it is) or variable?

You are right to a certain point. Let say just to put some numbers that it takes .3 second to burn the air/fuel mixture in a 150cc cylinder. So at 1300 rpm (idle) you need to ignite 6 degree BTDC to have the full combustion done at TDC. So now imagine that at 10 000 RPM... you need to ignite 55 degree BTDC to have the same .3 second of combustion done at TDC.

Now too much advance can hurt HP or if you're already too lean melt a hole in the piston. But I've been told also that having the timing retard a bit is good for emission. (not sure how much that one is true) So from factory I'm sure they play safe and for the need of emission standard...

Not as good as having a full on Dynojet ignition module, but much cheaper. It didn't cost anything to advance 3-4 degree and I don't think it will be too much of a change to hurt anything. Still have to do my first run but just idling the engine rev up much better and seams a little more "sharp" Might have to adjust the fuel trim a bit (AutoTune) but if I consider that I gain about 60 degree of cam opening (earlier and later) I could use a bit more ign. advance. If it doesn't work I'll put it back to STD.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Guitar Man]

Right. Just throwing around hypothetical numbers there to get an idea of what's going on.

If it's true that the factory plays it safe and retards the ignition for emissions reasons then you should be able to advance it a little with no worry of engine damage. Thing is would the ECU see this and add fuel to the air fuel mixture? The extra power might effect fuel economy as well. It would be nice if it improved it though. I've heard that these bikes run a little lean anyway.

Still would be nice to know the numbers so that you could have a base line to reference. Seems that's hard info to find on the net though. Short of talking to one of the engineers that designed the engine (and that's not going to happen) I don't know where one would find that info.

 

[Marthy]

Right. Just throwing around hypothetical numbers there to get an idea of what's going on.

If it's true that the factory plays it safe and retards the ignition for emissions reasons then you should be able to advance it a little with no worry of engine damage. Thing is would the ECU see this and add fuel to the air fuel mixture? The extra power might effect fuel economy as well. It would be nice if it improved it though. I've heard that these bikes run a little lean anyway.

Still would be nice to know the numbers so that you could have a base line to reference. Seems that's hard info to find on the net though. Short of talking to one of the engineers that designed the engine (and that's not going to happen) I don't know where one would find that info.

So far so good. Engine feel better and crisper throttle response and I feel like the mid range improve a bit. My ride wasn't long enough to have a good reading on the Auto Tune. I added 3% of fuel in the mid range (cruising range) to be safe. Feel like I can cruise with less throttle input for any given speed. Should have a better idea tomorrow.

It's a keeper. Now wondering if added more might help? LOL

 

[Guitar Man]

So far so good. Engine feel better and crisper throttle response and I feel like the mid range improve a bit. My ride wasn't long enough to have a good reading on the Auto Tune. I added 3% of fuel in the mid range (cruising range) to be safe. Feel like I can cruise with less throttle input for any given speed. Should have a better idea tomorrow.

It's a keeper. Now wondering if added more might help? LOL

From what I've read as long as it's not pinging that's the main thing.