Unbelievable...

[wolfe1down]

I am at work, and just finished having a conversation with a colleague that has recently purchased an early 90's era Honda Nighthawk. The fellow has had previous road riding experience (early 80's), and decided that since his skills were rusty, and his license had expired he would take a Provincial Motorcycle Defensive Driving Course. Sounds good right? Apparently, not so much. This guy was told by his instructors that the use of front brakes was bad. It would cause him to have "severe" (his words, not mine) nose dive, and lack of motorcycle control!! His course instructors taught a class of ~30 members to use the rear brakes exclusively, save under an emergency braking situation, where it would be 'ok' to use both brakes because you'll likely hit something anyways...

Now, I'm not bashing the Course instructors or the curriculum here, as I have not heard their side of the story, and it's a Provincially certified training institution, but the fellow I had the discussion with is a reliable guy, and not know for over-exaggeration... Perhaps he misunderstood somehow? Although, he does seem fairly strong in his conviction.

I asked him to logically explain to me why a motorcycle would have two rotors/calipers on the front wheel, and only one (or drum - in his case) on the rear, if "most of your braking power comes from the rear"? He told me that his instructor(s) told the course that the Front = 90%, Rear = 10% braking "myth" was for 80's era bikes, and that anyone saying different was wrong. Apparently, technology has evolved...

Needless to say I was shocked. I have explained to him the braking physics as best I could in one conversation, and then recommended to him some riding literature. We're going for a workplace group ride tomorrow, so I am going to attempt to 'convert' him at the rest stops... Hopefully I'll get through to him in the end, for his safety as well as everyone elses...

 

[philosopheriam]

That story is comparable to one I heard from a guy who went to Harley's Riders Edge course...

He wasn't taught the concept of "contersteering" - he was instructed to lean and press the handgrip down.

WTF!?!?!?!?

So, here's what I said to him - Get on an open, straight road. Ride in a straight line, don't lean, and press the right handgrip forward. Take note of what happens to the bike. That's countersteering....

 

[Smersh]

:jawdrop: I'll stay away from groups of motorcyclists in that area if i'm ever there.

 

[Wavex]

You guys use the front brake really???? someone lied to me too!!!!

He wasn't taught the concept of "contersteering" - he was instructed to lean and press the handgrip down.

"Leaning and pressing the inside handgrip down" is effectively the same thing as "counter steering". They were right :thumbup:

 

[wolfe1down]

You guys use the front brake really???? someone lied to me too!!!!

Weird, eh?

 

[wolfe1down]

:jawdrop: I'll stay away from groups of motorcyclists in that area if i'm ever there.

Not all of us are bad... just however many courses worth of riders that instructor/group of instructors taught over the summer... :spank:

 

[philosopheriam]

You guys use the front brake really???? someone lied to me too!!!!





"Leaning and pressing the inside handgrip down" is effectively the same thing as "counter steering". They were right :thumbup:

Um, don't you think it's a problem when a rider emerges from a riding course and doesn't recognize the proper nomenclature for or mechanics of countersteering? In the MSF, they cover countersteering and the function thereof.

Telling someone to just lean and press a handgrip down is f****** poor education my book. Bikes need proper steering inputs, combined with proper body positioning/leaning.

It is impossible to precisely maneuver a bike by leaning alone. In his book "Total Control," Lee PArks talks about an experiment where riders we put on bikes where the handlebars were fixed to the tank - they were instructed to manuever the bike by leaning alone. Long story short, most of the students were able to execute broad curves, however, anything more complicated was impossbile without resorting to actual steering inputs.

 

[chaskell27]

He told me that his instructor(s) told the course that the Front = 90%, Rear = 10% braking "myth" was for 80's era bikes, and that anyone saying different was wrong. Apparently, technology has evolved...

I just got a chance to ride a buddy's 08' Ducati 1098 and you want to talk about a completely USELESS rear brake. Holy crap that was waaaaay less functional than my fz. Now the Front brake on the other hand is a whole different story. Now there's some stopping power . I agree with you though, It seems like complete Bull$*** to me. One of the keys to being a good rider is knowing how to use the front brake and modulating it accordingly.

 

[robaho]

Unbelievable..... How can someone actually be teaching new students NOT TO USE THEIR FRONT BRAKE? Pure stupidity. I feel sorry for the students "learning" from that instructor.

 

[Wavex]

Um, don't you think it's a problem when a rider emerges from a riding course and doesn't recognize the proper nomenclature for or mechanics of countersteering? In the MSF, they cover countersteering and the function thereof.

Telling someone to just lean and press a handgrip down is f****** poor education my book. Bikes need proper steering inputs, combined with proper body positioning/leaning.

It is impossible to precisely maneuver a bike by leaning alone. In his book "Total Control," Lee PArks talks about an experiment where riders we put on bikes where the handlebars were fixed to the tank - they were instructed to manuever the bike by leaning alone. Long story short, most of the students were able to execute broad curves, however, anything more complicated was impossbile without resorting to actual steering inputs.

My point was simply that the nomenclature doesn't really matter as long as they teach you the right thing to do. There are plenty of great riders out there that do the right things without having ever heard the confusing term "countersteering".

 

[Smersh]

Not all of us are bad... just however many courses worth of riders that instructor/group of instructors taught over the summer... :spank:

You are right, the chances of me bumping into one of the "front-brake-is-soooooo-80-ies-man!!!" rider are very low, especially given that Darwin's natural selection will kick in sooner or later. I just don't want to be around when it [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqkTkw0K-t0"]does kick in[/ame]. (not to imply that i'm any better at it, btw - my first lesson in rear brake use resulted in a banged up knee, canceled vacation trip and a major scratch on the leather)

 

[Dennis in NH]

On my cruiser, the rear brake is pretty strong but still nothing like a front brake.

On the sport bikes I've ridden that front brake does the vast majority of the stopping. The rear is not that useful at all except maybe to stabilize.

Maybe as a true beginner, it's safer to start out with very slow speed and just rear brake until you get it -- then you will graduate to front break?

Dennis

 

[wolfe1down]

You are right, the chances of me bumping into one of the "front-brake-is-soooooo-80-ies-man!!!" rider are very low, especially given that Darwin's natural selection will kick in sooner or later. I just don't want to be around when it does kick in. (not to imply that i'm any better at it, btw - my first lesson in rear brake use resulted in a banged up knee, canceled vacation trip and a major scratch on the leather)

Hard to tell, but did the dude in that video do a 180? And then did the bike stay upright, but dump him??? :rof: Brutal!

On my cruiser, the rear brake is pretty strong but still nothing like a front brake.

On the sport bikes I've ridden that front brake does the vast majority of the stopping. The rear is not that useful at all except maybe to stabilize.

Maybe as a true beginner, it's safer to start out with very slow speed and just rear brake until you get it -- then you will graduate to front break?

Dennis

I'm not a motorcycle instructor. I am an instructor for Combat First Aid, and Tactical Combat Casualty Care for the military, and for both of those courses (as well as myriad other courses taught in the military and civilian life) muscle memory plays a crucial role. I would think that an MSF instructor would want to instill 'good habits' right from the get go, and thus have technically sound riders who lack experience.

Again, I can't really bash the instructors or the course, as I have only heard this guys side of the story, and there may (I hope) be a chance that he simply misunderstood what he was taught. Tomorrow on our ride I will see what else he has to say, and maybe get the name(s) of his instructors so I can go get their side of the story...

I REALLY hope that this guy misinterpreted something...somehow...

 

[necrotimus]

We weren't told to ignore the front break during our class but in my opinion usage of the rear brake was overstressed so we all left thinking the proper brake to apply was mostly the rear brake.

Luckily shortly after my class I visited this site which lead me to read some great books.

 

[discgolfdude]

Before I took my my class, a good friend of mine, saw me brake. I used the front brake harder than I should have, and told me that I should use my back brake more, then start to add more front brake.

Later, after taking the MSF class, I realized that what the instructor told us was to squeeze the front brake like an orange, getting the juice to come out, gently but firmly and at the same time apply the back brake. So far after a year of riding under my belt, I have yet to lock up the back brake, and have had to come to a quick stop a few times.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Canada....Huh..





I'm having a hard time believing that they would say something like that. Maybe your friend misunderstood?

Or perhaps it was during a particular range excercise where you should not use your front brake? For example, the U-turn box, we tell our riders not to get in the habit of using the front brake during this excercise since the handlebars are turned in a full lock position, any use of the front brake will be susceptible to a dropped bike, or at least a foot down. I see it happen all the time. I encourage them to drag the rear brake if they have to use their brake at all, or just squeeze in the clutch.

 

[wolfe1down]

Vegas, as I said, I will attempt to clarify this with the fella tomorrow. Sounds not quite right to me either. But he was pretty convinced. Will update this thread tomorrow evening, hopefully with good news! (ie. I convince him that his front brake is a good tool to use):thumbup:

 

[BusyWeb]

I guess that instructor didn't mention when ???
At the slow speed like training classes, the rear break usage is much better than front brake.
Otherwise, the front braking might cause some problems for the new students at the slower speed riding.

 

[philosopheriam]

My point was simply that the nomenclature doesn't really matter as long as they teach you the right thing to do. There are plenty of great riders out there that do the right things without having ever heard the confusing term "countersteering".

Well sir, I must whole-heartedly disagree, as I have NEVER met anyone that I consider to be a good rider who doesn't understand the concept of countersteering.

Then again, perhaps my definition of a "good" rider is far different from yours...

 

[McLovin]

You are right, the chances of me bumping into one of the "front-brake-is-soooooo-80-ies-man!!!" rider are very low, especially given that Darwin's natural selection will kick in sooner or later. I just don't want to be around when it does kick in. (not to imply that i'm any better at it, btw - my first lesson in rear brake use resulted in a banged up knee, canceled vacation trip and a major scratch on the leather)

That was a pretty stylish stunt actually..I think he did it on purpose to lose the annoying passenger.