R6 cam in the FZ6

[bossdoc83]

Is it possible? Has anyone done it? I've done some quick searching and haven't really found anything....

Why do I ask or why not get an R6? Well because I love toying with my toys! Also, sleepers (for you old schoolers ) are the best!

 

[Hellgate]

Is it possible? Has anyone done it? I've done some quick searching and haven't really found anything....

Why do I ask or why not get an R6? Well because I love toying with my toys! Also, sleepers (for you old schoolers ) are the best!

Gotta love a sleeper!

That idea has crossed my mind too, however I wonder if the intake system would allow you to get benefit out of the change? From what I understand, the R6 has some type of an intake run length changing system and a different FI system. (Yeah I'm sure Yamaha has a four letter acronym for it...) I would think with the PCIII and a good tuning session you could get some nice peak power out if it.

Another change that would be fun to play with is the J&E 637cc piston kit. That kit is a +2 on the bore.

JEPistons.com | Powersports - Street

 

[bossdoc83]

I would think that the cams should work since having the PCIII makes the FI tuneable, right? Having said that, getting a tune is no prob but the fitment is my concern. Granted the FZ motor is the down-graded R6 but to what extent? Or am I just over-thinking?

To my knowledge, I should be able to drop in a set of cams and be good to go, except for tuning of course and any bugs that may come along.

Now for the pistons....he he... Not sure I'm gonna get that crazy just yet but... very tempting!!:thumbup:

 

[Hellgate]

Well I wonder if the heads have the same port shape/size at the R6? If they are smaller they may not flow the additional air and fuel correctly...

What do you think?

 

[bmccrary]

Well I wonder if the heads have the same port shape/size at the R6? If they are smaller they may not flow the additional air and fuel correctly...

What do you think?

+1.

Now your getting there. It would involve alot more than just a cam swap. You would need to figure out what the FZ head flows first in comparrison to an r6 head. In addition you will probably need the springs out of the R6 as well.

you can throw alot of lift at it to let more air in, but if the motor doesnt need it, then you wont get anywhere with it. You will have wasted your money. At some point I would love to throw my head on the flow bench here at school and see what she does, but that will only be if I have to.

If you have some extra time and access to a flow bench and can get ahold of an r6 head as well as a FZ head. It would be worth your time to see but probably not worth the money.

Not sure how much experience you have with cams and motors and such. I was just giving some basic info there. Didnt mean to talk under anyone on that if they already know such info.

This is a neat video on improver valve spring/cam set up.

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY"]YouTube - Valve Float[/ame]

-bryan

 

[wolfc70]

Actually our motors are based off of the 03 and 04 r6 motor. The YCCI (Yamaha Chip Controlled Intake) I think was first introduced in 2006. The R6s is virtually the same engine as that older r6, just with different fuel injection. I think the cams would bolt right in. Of course I would also put in r6 valves and springs just in case there are any differences. I would find a junked 04 r6 (should be easy considering the rate people crash these things) and take some measurements with the micrometer to make sure bearing sizes are the same and measure the cam lift just to see if there is any difference. There is more than just cam profiles involved with increasing volumetric efficiency. A r6 motor may just bolt in too.

 

[dako81]

I'd really doubt if the flow would be much different between the two heads. Not like they designed a completely different motor for our bikes. Not sure the valve springs would be different either. Maybe someone could look up the part numbers in the yamaha parts cataloge thingy?

 

[bmccrary]

I'd really doubt if the flow would be much different between the two heads. Not like they designed a completely different motor for our bikes. Not sure the valve springs would be different either. Maybe someone could look up the part numbers in the yamaha parts cataloge thingy?

I am not sure either. But I figured I would throw it out there just incase. I doubt yamaha made a different mold for our head, but you never know.

Just something to check.

-bryan

 

[bossdoc83]

So I've been doing some research and got a quote from my buddy at a yamaha dealer. He told me for both cams, inner and outer springs that the price tag is almost 6 bills brand new! OUCH

Next I'm gonna check out some wrecking yards or something and see what I can come up with. One thing I am wondering is break-in. Whether new or used, what kind of break-in is needed, if any, before being good to go?

I still haven't got around to checking dimensions just yet but I plan too as soon as I get some more spare time....

 

[urbanj]

thats not that bad. Some people spend almost double that on an exhaust and PCIII. Break in like anything else. slap a bunch of assembly lube on the lobes and journals and break it in gently for a couple hundred miles.

I'd like to see someone actually measure the cam specs of both bikes first.

 

[bossdoc83]

I took a quick bit of time to do some research and about all I can find is other thread about the swap. Nothing really concrete yet. I did find a link that compares P/N's but that's about it for now...

FZ6 vs R6 Engine mods - Sportbikes.net

There's some good points and info but like I said, nothing solid yet. If anyone finds some good specs before I do, please let me know!:thumbup:

 

[dako81]

Here's what I posted on the "other" forum...(Haven't been there since the beginning of May, didn't realize it):

Will someone clear this up for me:

Everything I've seen "claiming" HP for the FZ-6 is: 98hp at the wheel

Everything I've seen "claiming" for the 2005 R6 is 123hp at the crank with ram air, 117 at the crank without ram air

Now, motorcycle.com did a test and they were getting 103-104hp at the wheel with an '05 r6.
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufactur...-test-3909.htm

From what I've seen, FZ's are getting 94-95 at the wheel.

Now, it seems to me like everyone thinks they're going to swap cams and get 117 hp at the wheel when the comprable r6 doesn't even do that.

Maybe they don't see the discrepancy between the measurements taken at the crank by Yamaha and at the wheel by people in the real world?

Yea, swapping the cams, if they're a direct bolt in, may produce a couple more peak hp, maybe 5-10% even at peak, but it will kill everything down below it. And that's even if you can get the FI, computer, and rev limiter to cooperate...

Swapping cams may be great for some people and I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying that I think too many people are getting confused by not reading and think they're going to be pumping close to 120hp to the ground and from what I've seen from the articles and research, it just isn't going to be true.

And I will say, I would like to see someone go through with a cam swap, and a dyno day with a PCIII and see what the graphs look like, see how the street riding is affected, and how fuel economy is affected.

 

[Hellgate]

Great thread everyone, lots of very good insight.

Given the cost and the "what-if" of the cam outcome, I really think that the J&E piston kit would be a better bang for the buck.

I'm a big fan of torque instead of hp. Torque is what shoots you out of corners and gets you off of the line quickly, hp makes you go fast in a straight away. That is one reason people like 1000s so much, they are typically a punchy motor. A great example of this is the Bandit 1250s. It makes about 100 to 105 hp but has TONS for torque, you twist the throttle at pretty much any rpm and GOOOOOOOOOOO!

With the J&E kit I am pretty sure it raises the compression ratio a half a point too. Increased compression can do wonders for torque and along with the displacement bump I think it would be a very snappy motor. As far as cost....well...the piston kit is about $675, labor...maybe...$700...machining and plating...$300 to $400, perhaps?

 

[wolfc70]

Great thread everyone, lots of very good insight.

Given the cost and the "what-if" of the cam outcome, I really think that the J&E piston kit would be a better bang for the buck.

I'm a big fan of torque instead of hp. Torque is what shoots you out of corners and gets you off of the line quickly, hp makes you go fast in a straight away. That is one reason people like 1000s so much, they are typically a punch motor. A great example of this is the Bandit 1250s. It makes about 100 to 105 hp but has TONS for torque, you twist at pretty much rpm and GOOOOOOOOOOO!

With the J&E kit I am pretty sure it raises the compression ratio a half a point too. Increased compression can do wonders for torque and along with the displacement bump I think it would be a very snappy motor. As far as cost....well...the piston kit is about $675, labor...maybe...$700...machining and plating...$300 to $400, perhaps?

Yea, I forgot about the J&E kit. I think it bumps displacement up to 637 cc's which would really fatten up the low and midrange. I think compression goes up to 12.5:1.

Basically similar idea to Kawasaki's Ninja 636 a few years ago.

 

[OneTrack]

Given the cost and the "what-if" of the cam outcome, I really think that the J&E piston kit would be a better bang for the buck.

I agree that the J&E kit would be the way to go....If the FZ6 was made in a 750 version (FZ7 ?) it would be an awesome road bike. (Not that the FZ6 isn't, but can you imagine another 150cc, with possibly another 20 HP and gobs of torque, all in the same package as an FZ6?)

I'm a big fan of torque instead of hp. Torque is what shoots you out of corners and gets you off of the line quickly, hp makes you go fast in a straight away. That is one reason people like 1000s so much, they are typically a punchy motor. A great example of this is the Bandit 1250s. It makes about 100 to 105 hp but has TONS for torque, you twist the throttle at pretty much any rpm and GOOOOOOOOOOO!

I had a great opportunity to do a direct comparison between my FZ6 and my son's Father-in-Law's (Dave's) new Bandit 1250 a couple of weeks ago on the roads in the South Okanagan in BC. Dave is a very experienced rider with skills...he knows how to ride. On our initial rides together, it was obvious that his Bandit had a bit more "oomph" than my FZ6 through the gears, and I was a lot busier than he was changing gears through the twisties and so on....However....when he went to a WOT rip on a beautiful straight stretch of road, my wonderful FZ6 was able to stay right with him. Just before we shut down, I glanced down at my speedo and it was reading just over 210 kph....and I was GAINING on the Bandit. Dave said he couldn't believe how I was able to stay right with him on that roll-on. The banshee-like howl of my Scorpions on that rip was fantastic, btw.... :Flash:
What was obvious, however, was that the Bandit could achieve the same performance as my FZ6 with a lot less effort, if you know what I mean. Nice bike! :thumbup:

My next mod is going to be made of titanium...and it's going in my lower spine next tuesday. That'll be the end of my biking for the year.

 

[atownsFZ6er]

ive done a little research on the cam swap, from what ive read the major if any differences between the engines is the cam, throttle body and head gasket (it just changes the compression). the fz6 engine is based off the r6 engine prior to the variable throttle body things so you shouldnt need to worry about that. so as far as i can tell with a pcIII and a little tuning it should be doable. as far as that one poster said about the r6 really only having 103ish or whatever to the wheel i dont believe bc at least a half dozen mags and websites say around 120 and even if thats at the crank itll still give put of a very noticeable power difference then the fz6 95ish at the wheels. i still would like to see someone try the swap and dyno it to see the what happens. so if anyone has the balls and money go for it but be careful.

 

[FZ1inNH]

This article has some great FZ6 vs. R6 pointers with regards to the differences in engine components. Read here: 2008 Yamaha FZ6

 

[n1one]

This article has some great FZ6 vs. R6 pointers with regards to the differences in engine components. Read here: 2008 Yamaha FZ6

Nice website, Thanks.

From what I read:

"Hollow side-driven camshafts with computer perfected valve timing help create a very narrow engine. The key difference between the R6"S" and FZ6 engines is the camshafts in the FZ6 have revised cam profiles and slightly different intake tracts for more low to mid range power. "

Not sure why you would want to change the cams? If the design of the cams for the FZ6 gives you more low and mid range power, why would you want to change that? IMHO, why add more power in the high RPM range where it is more difficult to use it? I know that I have very few chances during my normal ride to be that far up the RPM range to actually see any benifit...also I hope it does not take away the useable power from the low end where it is needed.

Just my $0.02..it would be intersting to see what the outcome would be from the swap out.

Later,

 

[Hellgate]

My next mod is going to be made of titanium...and it's going in my lower spine next tuesday. That'll be the end of my biking for the year.

Good luck with the surgery and get well soon.

 

[FZ1inNH]

Also noted as a major difference in that article:

Group-Type" Mikuni 36mm throttle body fuel injection provides outstanding throttle response and excellent fuel economy. This system uses fewer sensors (5) than the R6"S" (7) while also being lighter and more compact.

Group fuel injection divides the four cylinders into two groups (1 & 4 and 2 & 3) with two injections of fuel for every 720 degrees of crank rotation (the R6"S" system utilizes a sequential injection for each cylinder).

Compact "high dynamic range" injectors use 4-hole / 2-direction spray type injectors. A high powered, compact 32 bit CPU controls the injection process. For 2007 the FI settings and mapping were revised for improved performance in the most often used speed ranges.