Potential Clutch Issue - Plate Related, Need Insight

[Zealot]

Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Hi guys! I know you're sick of hearing from me and all, but here I am again with yet another question!

Observation: When I park the bike in gear and go to move it later, if I pull the clutch in I am forced to pull the bike backwards and push it forwards with some force in order to unstick somethingoranother and let it roll freely. Only does this when the bike sits for a time. Today on a ride, I could hear a mechanical clunking sound that was a bit out of the ordinary every time I started to roll from a stop. Clutch chatter? When I came home, I stayed in first gear and rolled the bike forwards and backwards repeatedly, and each time could hear an audible 'clunk' when I would change direction. I took the cap off that is on top of the clutch cover to have a look inside since that's where the noise came from and noticed that whenever I'd roll a certain direction, the metallic plate closest to the outside (easily visible) would 'clunk' and start spinning. This was with the lever pulled in! In neutral, this was not a problem. Clutch appears to engage and disengage just fine save for what I've observed above. The sticking for first gear park has been around forever, but the clunky noise is a new development.

This is NOT my clutch, but I'd like to point out the silver plate closest to the camera taking the photo - that is the metal plate I am referring to when I talk about it spinning.


Any idea what exactly is going on here, or what I should do? Time for a clutch replacement?

Doing some reading, it sounds like stuck plates - and I've read something in which a person found his stuck together. He said "I washed them thoroughly in petrol, then dipped them briefly in a bowl of oil, and reassembled the clutch still dripping in oil. NOTE, do not operate the clutch lever while the clutch is dis-assembled, or bad things will happen.". It's a 2014 FJR in his case, but I feel like the principal might be the same.

 

[Zealot]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Did some investigating today, and my dads VTX 1800 has the same 'clunk' when it's in gear and you roll it. Guess it's the nature of the transmission, although I'd never observed it to work that way in the past. I still find the sort of clunky take off to be unsettling, but otherwise it seems to operate normally.

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Its pretty normal although some oils stick more than others. Throw a flat coaster down on the table top with veggi oil between them. Now try to lift the coaster straight up. Its nearly impossible. This same thing is happening to your friction and steel discs as they get mashed together by the clutch springs. But try to slide that coaster. it will slide (shear) the oil and then it moves pretty easy. Same thing when you roll the bike. 1) - unloaded the springs, but the plates remain stuck together. 2) Applied shearing forces. This breaks the bond between the plates allowing them to separate.

You can try different oil and it may help.

As for the clunk. When the frictions are stuck to the steel plates AND YOU change direction, the steel plate with its tabs into the clutch basket hit collide as there is a small gap. It really only happens when changing directions. Again - its not an issue. Plus you are taking the slack out of the entire gear box. I wouldn't worry about its something you feel resonate into the chassis.

FWIW: If you notice some clutch friction discs have like a waffle cut pattern on them. This reduces the surface area the oil has to bond to the steel disc. It allows the plates to separate easier. Less contact area equates to higher PSI of the actual area in contact. Obviously as these waffle like patterns wear they lose the tread so to speak and become flat with no texture. Then they stick more easily.


Two things I do before dropping into gear on cold start: 1) While warming in Neutral, pull the clutch in and release it several times. 2) Push off with one foot, or if parked on a slope, roll down the hill and THEN drop it into gear. This reduces that big CLUNK action of unseating those stuck plates when dropping into first gear.

 

[Zealot]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Noted. Thanks for the information!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Also, re the FJR plates.

For several years (mostly the Gen II's) the engines were assembled with the clutch plates NOT soaked in oil as much as they should have been from the factory . That resulted in MUCH clunkier shifting, Hard initial shifts into first, etc (excessive clutch drag)

The fix was to simply remove the fiber plates, soak in oil (overnight was the best) with A VERY NOTICEABLE change in performance, / shifting..

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

I've been having major clunking issues with my bike when I put in gear from a stop. If I slowly depress my shifter, I hear my gears spinning trying to engage. So to prevent the clunk, I always start it in gear and then ride off. When I come to a stop, like for a red light, I leave it in gear with the clutch in. It's a good habit at least to stay in gear while you're stopped anyways so there is some advantage to this clunking.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

I've been having major clunking issues with my bike when I put in gear from a stop. If I slowly depress my shifter, I hear my gears spinning trying to engage. So to prevent the clunk, I always start it in gear and then ride off. When I come to a stop, like for a red light, I leave it in gear with the clutch in. It's a good habit at least to stay in gear while you're stopped anyways so there is some advantage to this clunking.

Slowly going into gear is NOT the best thing for the gears...

A couple of suggestions to help,

If in neutral, stopped, running, pull in the clutch for at least 5-7 seconds, (maybe a little more). It lets the half the transmission slow/stop spinning for an easier engagement.

Lowering the idle some (I have mine a tick over 1,000), makes the first clunk considerably less, almost nill. The engine idles smoother, you get more engine braking and yes, the battery does still charge (with BD43 mod) unless you have a bunch of accessories going; Its been set at 1K for about 6 years.

And not to start an oil war, full synthetic Motul 7100 seems to help considerably. I'm halfways thru this oil change and won't put anything else back in the engine..The transmission is noticeably quieter and MUCH less clunky..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127092600@N08/

 

[Zealot]

I swapped over to 7100 as well and have found the bike runs cooler, and it does shift noticeably more smooth.

 

[Cloggy]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Also, re the FJR plates.

For several years (mostly the Gen II's) the engines were assembled with the clutch plates NOT soaked in oil as much as they should have been from the factory . That resulted in MUCH clunkier shifting, Hard initial shifts into first, etc (excessive clutch drag)

The fix was to simply remove the fiber plates, soak in oil (overnight was the best) with A VERY NOTICEABLE change in performance, / shifting..

Thanks for this info Scott. My bike went for a service yesterday and unfortunately I was told that the Clutch needs replacing (I guess I can't complain after 115000km's). Anyway the guy said that he needed to order the clutch (plates) and then leave them to soak for at least a day before hand.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Thanks for this info Scott. My bike went for a service yesterday and unfortunately I was told that the Clutch needs replacing (I guess I can't complain after 115000km's). Anyway the guy said that he needed to order the clutch (plates) and then leave them to soak for at least a day before hand.

Your welcome and I'm glad he's doing that even more.

Please post back how the clutch is once your bike is once back..

 

[Cloggy]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Your welcome and I'm glad he's doing that even more.

Please post back how the clutch is once your bike is once back..

Well I must admit I went to this guy for the first time after he was recommended by a friend of mine, I was really happy with his work, and he also explained everything he did :thumbup: . I used to go to the dealers but their prices were getting rediculous. It's a one man show but he has a large garage on an industrial estate but what I liked was that you could take a seat and you could watch him work. He also provides (on location) maintenance for a track day school at both Assen and Zandvoort (better known from car racing). Anyway he also replaced my Yamaha chain set for a fraction of the cost of the garage (not for parts but for hourly rate).

I'll let you know how it goes with the clutch, it's getting done next week.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That's great you found a local guy you can trust Martin.

For the bikes, boat engines, lawn equipment, etc I work on for customers, I encourage them to watch and learn and stick around. Most don't but like doing a throttle body sync, they do. They can see the "before" and the "after" settings..(for 1/4 of what a shop would charge).


Couple years ago, I had to clean two Honda MC carbs, varnished up(one bike). (I used to work with the guy and he heard about me working on bikes) thru another friend. I cleaned/synced, got the bike running tops for around $50.00, which he was very happy with.

As he was getting ready to leave, he mentioned (more like bragging) to me the shop wanted more than $300 for the same job, (as if, ha, I got a great deal from you, you under charged me!). I said no, there's about 2.5 hours cleaning / reassembling at $100 an hour(shop charge). I usually charge a flat $20 / hour. with a limit.

So it sounds like you got a good guy there that knows what he's doing, and just letting you WATCH, says alot, he's not likely cutting corners or hiding ANYTHING....

Tip if you think its worth it.

I have guy (in a private owned shop) that swaps tires for me (wheels off the bike) that knows NOT to scratch my wheels. He knows there's a tip coming. He's the only one I'll let touch the wheels for new tires...

 

[raja777m]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Quote Originally Posted by VEGASRIDER View Post
I've been having major clunking issues with my bike when I put in gear from a stop. If I slowly depress my shifter, I hear my gears spinning trying to engage. So to prevent the clunk, I always start it in gear and then ride off. When I come to a stop, like for a red light, I leave it in gear with the clutch in. It's a good habit at least to stay in gear while you're stopped anyways so there is some advantage to this clunking.

Slowly going into gear is NOT the best thing for the gears...

A couple of suggestions to help,

If in neutral, stopped, running, pull in the clutch for at least 5-7 seconds, (maybe a little more). It lets the half the transmission slow/stop spinning for an easier engagement.
[/B]

I read this 5-7 seconds point few months and tried so many times, in the morning (cold starts).
but, most of the times, it did not effect me, I still have ths clunkier noise when going from 0 to 1 gear.
lately I've observed:
Bike is parked*, start the engine, get the rpm idle at 1k, roll the bike a couple of steps back and then shift to 1, 6 out of 10 times worked for me.
* My parking place(both office and apartment complex) have an incline of less than 10% angle, so, I park the bike, front tire to curb/wall and roll the bike reverse before shifting.

I uses some cheaper oil from walmart: my first oil change
http://www.600riders.com/forum/atta...64998d1438655486-2-sets-mirrors-fz6-image-jpg

From now on, I planned to change oil and filter less than 3k miles (lot of mountain/twisties riding with 3 or 4th gear, which makes me afraid I may spoil the plates (could be just my misconception) and Motul is expensive compared to Rotella T6, 5w-40.

 

[Z3R0_zhift]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Just to check, is it advisable to remove the clutch cover and reuse the old gasket. Let's say it's for emergency and miles away to get a new gasket. It's burnt and sticks to the surface. Just asking.

 

[Zealot]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Just to check, is it advisable to remove the clutch cover and reuse the old gasket. Let's say it's for emergency and miles away to get a new gasket. It's burnt and sticks to the surface. Just asking.

I feel like a new gasket would be advisable every time. Emergency situations, you gotta make due... But I'd try and replace it asap if I were you.

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Are you saying the clutch it burnt or the gasket? ^^ Wha?

I bought a new gasket for the timing cover, it separated leaving some gasket material on both the block and the cover, knowing I'd be back in for another adjustment, I reused the old gasket (about 3x). No leaks. This is a steel backed gasket also.
Don't bend it, do not scrap off material left of case or cover and they can be reused. Its typically not a good practice, but.... I did use a super thin layer of RTV where the CPS sensor wire passes through a grommet and all is well.

As noted: soak at least 8hr in engine oil before assembling into clutch basket.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Just to check, is it advisable to remove the clutch cover and reuse the old gasket. Let's say it's for emergency and miles away to get a new gasket. It's burnt and sticks to the surface. Just asking.

The worst it'll do is leak (most likely VERY SLIGHTLY). So to get you home it isn't an issue.

** I would have to wonder that if you have to get to the clutch for some bad reason, (blown up friction plate, badly warped steels) your likely NOT going to be pulling that cover off as you'll likely need replacement parts anyways.

One exception would be the clutch "pull out" bearing located in the outer clutch basket which has failed in the past (at least on one occasion here) but was replaced with an exact replacement, just not from Yamaha. (It had failed and wasn't releasing the clutch fully)

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

I read this 5-7 seconds point few months and tried so many times, in the morning (cold starts).
but, most of the times, it did not effect me, I still have ths clunkier noise when going from 0 to 1 gear.
lately I've observed:
Bike is parked*, start the engine, get the rpm idle at 1k, roll the bike a couple of steps back and then shift to 1, 6 out of 10 times worked for me.
* My parking place(both office and apartment complex) have an incline of less than 10% angle, so, I park the bike, front tire to curb/wall and roll the bike reverse before shifting.
.

Couple of points, starting off cold, the engine RPM's are roughly 2-300 RPM's higher, oil is thick. Your going to get more clunk dead cold than warmed up. My old FJR did the same thing, Yamaha's design...

I have a slightly steep driveway.

I start the bike, gear up as it warms up. As I get on, the idle has dropped down to about 1050. I pull the clutch lever 3-4- times in and out, while rolling downhill and shift into SECOND (very, very little clunk) and proceed.

After that, bike warmed up, I watch the "side" traffic lights. When they turn yellow, I hold in the clutch, again for that 5-7 seconds, then shift into first as my light turns green. I get very, very little clunk.

I used to use Motul 5100, which I liked. Once I sold my other bikes and just had this one, I upgraded to 7100 10w-40. You could feel the difference in shifting, literally. Dropping the idle RPM's closer to 1,000 or 1,100 also makes a VERY big difference. I won't put anything else in the crankcase from now on..

I've posted a video here of my bike, on a cold start, dual headlights, still charging the battery, even as the idle drops to 1050; https://www.flickr.com/photos/127092600@N08/ (This video is with a failing battery which I've since replaced)

 

[Z3R0_zhift]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Sorry, just a random question came into mind on gaskets.Perhaps in a worst case scenario where I might not be able to get a new gasket on some parts and would like to know whether it has the slightest effect to the engine and etc due to slight oil leaks. Got some friends who changes their own clutch plates here and reuse back their gaskets. Probably they got the steel ones as mentioned. Thanks much for sharing.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Clutch Issue - Stuck Plate?

Sorry, just a random question came into mind on gaskets.Perhaps in a worst case scenario where I might not be able to get a new gasket on some parts and would like to know whether it has the slightest effect to the engine and etc due to slight oil leaks. Got some friends who changes their own clutch plates here and reuse back their gaskets. Probably they got the steel ones as mentioned. Thanks much for sharing.

Not a problem.

Actually, you can run that engine, idling with the clutch cover off.. Yes you'll get some oil spray, and potentially suck in crap but the oil level is considerably LOWER (compare the hash marks on your dip stick to the lower clutch cover).

If your pulling the cover / gasket often (for what ever reason) , I grease ONE SIDE of the gasket(thin coat). It still seals, but won't stick to the greased side of the gasket to the block...