Nvr thought "rain" would b such a dirty word

[Keits]

The g/f was bent on saving gas and signed up for the MSF course and pushed me to do so also. Always wanted a bike...just never pursued it. We took the class May 1,3,and 4th. 3 days later found us in our local dealer, her with an '07 holdout Virago 250 and me a '07 holdout FZ6. Prior to the MSF course 3 days earlier, neither of us had rode before. She (wisely) had her bike delivered. Me (questionable wisdom) was determined to ride my baby home (the bike I mean) A friend came and picked up my car at the bike dealership and followed me home. OMG what a freakin blast!! Got home dropped off my 4 door "grocery getter" and within the next 24 hrs put 220 miles on the bike. At 50 miles, stalled her at a light...eh! it happens. But when I went to re-start her she won't turn over and the starter dies as if the battery is dying. Later found out its not recommended to jump a bike with a car but I was stranded on the side of the HWY at 9 o' clock at night. I get the bike started and make it home with no other probs.The next morning take her back to the dealership for an electrical diagnostic. Still no probs since the night before and the shop can't find anything wrong either. If youre still reading this thanx...I kno its long but I felt the need to share Anyway, to end this long story, the freak battery issue has not happened again. Its raining today and I'm going insane waiting for it to dry out so I can ride again.

HAs anyone else had something like this happen to them?
Anyone in the Delaware, South Jersey, S.E. PA or N.W. MD give me a shout sometime.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

It appears that several members have experieced a weak battery incident after their initial ride too, especially with the '07's. Just one note, make sure the kickstand is up, as the bike will not start with it down. You can probably find similar stories like this thread by using the search tab, which is available for members only. This is a great site for Q's and A's. However, this forum has been up for a while now so just about every technical Q's have been asked and answered. You have a lot of catching up to do.....welcome and always wear your gear:thumbup:. Don't forget to post some pics of your bike, even the wife's/GF bike. She should join as well, as we have several members who are married and both contribute to the forum.

 

[Keits]

Will do! Thanx for the welcome...........

 

[CanadianFZ6]

This may not have anything to do with you not be able to re-start after a stall, but... Under the clutch lever there is a plug and wire... check and make sure it is plugged in. This is often overlooked when bikes are put together at the dealer during PDI... This enables the bike to be started in gear when the clutch is pulled in. You can "bump" start the bike as well if the batt dies. Find a small hill or get someone to push (by hand , not a car... LOL)... Put the bike in second gear and drop the clutch... the bike should start.

Finally, it is ok to jump start a bike with a car... but make sure the car's engine is off...

 

[HavBlue]

Finally, it is ok to jump start a bike with a car... but make sure the car's engine is off...

Am I missing something? The typical charging system in cages charges at 13.8 to 14.2vdc with the engine running. Depending on the specific application the alternator (at idle speeds) could be charging at a rate of 20 amps or less depending on what systems may be on at the time. I have started many bikes using jumper cables while having the engine on. I have also used the accessory power plug or cigarette lighter to charge batteries while things are off (read as the cage ain't runnin but the circuit is complete). I have never had a problem with either.

 

[wrightme43]

Am I missing something? The typical charging system in cages charges at 13.8 to 14.2vdc with the engine running. Depending on the specific application the alternator (at idle speeds) could be charging at a rate of 20 amps or less depending on what systems may be on at the time. I have started many bikes using jumper cables while having the engine on. I have also used the accessory power plug or cigarette lighter to charge batteries while things are off (read as the cage ain't runnin but the circuit is complete). I have never had a problem with either.

Yes.

Basic theory idea, for those who came in late: Generators of all types make electricity by moving a magnetic field relative to a coil of wire. The stronger the magnetic field and the faster it moves, the more electricity is generated. The moving part is usually called an armature or rotor. The stationary part is called a stator.
The typical car alternator is an excited field type. The magnetic field is created by an electromagnet in the rotor. Supply voltage is controlled by the amount of current going through the electromagnet. Most big AC generators are made this way. If an external power source is applied of a higher voltage than the regulator setpoint is applied to the system, the regulator will recognize the system voltage as being above setpoint and turn the field magnet (usually rotor) off. Result: No problem, as long as the applied voltage isn't so high as to damage anything (typically 25 V or higher on a 12V system). So you can (usually) jump start a car with another car, or a GoldWing without any problems.
Now the bad news:
Most motorcycles don't use an electromagnet to create the magnetic field. Instead ,we have a drum-shaped rotor (usually on the crankshaft) with several permanent magnets placed inside (a magneto). These magnets moving past the stator coils create the electricity we need to run the lights, charge the battery, etc. But you can't change the strength of a permanent magnet. So regulating the generator output is not a straightforward issue of turning the field magnet strength up or down.
The motorcycle voltage regulators I've seen all take the approach of shunting excess generated power to ground. This has the advantage of making sure that the voltage is the same everywhere in the system, but the disadvantage of meaning that the stator is always flowing its maximum rated supply current. This, I think, is why many motorcycles have a reputation for frying stators.
So the design of one of these regulators is completely different from a cage regulator. It has a voltage detection part, like the other regulators, but the big resistor/power transistor package has to be strong enough to carry all the possible excess power generation to ground. It handles a lot more power than the car regulator has to. It generates a lot of heat as it does this, which is why the regulator on my '85 VT1100 is finned and out in the open air--to carry off the heat before it cooks something in or around the regulator. A typical bike magneto makes 30-50 amps at max power. So the regulator is designed to dissipate a maximum of about 700 watts for short periods (this would be full power and no loads on the bike--the battery and lights are all missing). In practice, this cooks the regulator pretty fast--they don't like to dissipate more than about 200 watts for any length of time.
Now consider what happens when your moto regulator is doing a good job keeping the system at a nominal 14.1 volts when running, but the battery is weak, so you have to jump-start it on cold mornings. You hook up the bike to your Toyota with a 95 amp alternator (max output about 1400 watts). The Toyota's voltage regulator keeps *its* system at a cozy 14.3 volts when the engine is running. We now have a problem.
The cage's alternator and regulator want to maintain the system at 14.3 volts. Your bike's regulator, the instant the system is turned on, is going to try to bleed off excess voltage from the system to keep it at 14.1 volts. The car's alternator is rated for 1400 watts. The bike's regulator can dissipate a maximum of 700 for (very) short periods before it cooks itself. It's a tug of war, and the bike regulator ALWAYS loses.
Moral of the story--jump-start your bike from a non-running cage. The quiescent voltage of a car (or bike) battery is in the 13.2-13.8 volt range. The only result of this is that the full output of the bike's magneto will go into the cage and moto batteries once the bike starts. This actually reduces the load on the regulator to near zero, so it's quite happy with this state of affairs.
Corrolary: Want to reduce the load on your bike's voltage regulator? Install MORE (or brighter) lights. No kidding. Since the regulator only handles power output beyond the bike's demands, installing more demands means that the regulator does less (and is happier). The stator does the same amount of work in either case, so no problem there. Be forewarned, though, that Honda didn't exactly break the bank on copper for the wire in our bikes. It's sized to work just right with no corroded connectors and the stock loads. You need to run larger/more supply wires from the battery if you intend to use significantly more power than does the stock system.

 

[jamesfz6]

You can "bump" start the bike as well if the batt dies. Find a small hill or get someone to push (by hand , not a car... LOL)... Put the bike in second gear and drop the clutch... the bike should start.

Finally, it is ok to jump start a bike with a car... but make sure the car's engine is off...

I didnt think you could push start fuel injection?

 

[Tailgate]

I had an unpleasant surprise two nights ago. At a light and....I stalled it! (2nd time since I bought bike in Nov, 2007). I pulled in clutch lever and pressed start button but...nothing. Whaaa? Cars behind me in left hand turn lane (glad I didn't get rear ended). After 2-3 tries (and surprise because I had started it this way before with clutch in) I quickly shifted into neutral and, voila (do you know Fr.?) varoom! I kept on thinking the rest of evening if my wiring mods had f'ed up something but I kept on thinking "No, but warranty service may be not be a slam dunk because of wiring mods??." Then, just about home waiting for a green, I think to myself "what's that electrical connector at the clutch side??" I touch it and, Ah hah! It was loose...obviously this was why I coudn't start earlier with the clutch in. Sure enough, it had worked loose. It probably had never been inserted fully during set-up. Case solved.

 

[FZ1inNH]

I had an unpleasant surprise two nights ago. At a light and....I stalled it! (2nd time since I bought bike in Nov, 2007). I pulled in clutch lever and pressed start button but...nothing. Whaaa? Cars behind me in left hand turn lane (glad I didn't get rear ended). After 2-3 tries (and surprise because I had started it this way before with clutch in) I quickly shifted into neutral and, voila (do you know Fr.?) varoom! I kept on thinking the rest of evening if my wiring mods had f'ed up something but I kept on thinking "No, but warranty service may be not be a slam dunk because of wiring mods??." Then, just about home waiting for a green, I think to myself "what's that electrical connector at the clutch side??" I touch it and, Ah hah! It was loose...obviously this was why I coudn't start earlier with the clutch in. Sure enough, it had worked loose. It probably had never been inserted fully during set-up. Case solved.

Perhaps a good thing for ALL to try is to go out, put the bike in gear and try to start with the clutch pulled. Troubleshoot this now before you're on the road and have a problem rather than find out in a traffic situation. I'm going to since mine is new. I haven't stalled it yet so I'm unsure about the connection. I'll BE sure to unplug and plug it so I'm confident it is connected properly.

Thanks all for, yet again, GREAT info! This site :rockon:!!!

 

[HavBlue]

Perhaps a good thing for ALL to try is to go out, put the bike in gear and try to start with the clutch pulled. Troubleshoot this now before you're on the road and have a problem rather than find out in a traffic situation. I'm going to since mine is new. I haven't stalled it yet so I'm unsure about the connection. I'll BE sure to unplug and plug it so I'm confident it is connected properly.

Thanks all for, yet again, GREAT info! This site :rockon:!!!

Absolutely. You may also want to kill it while you are just riding along so you can get a feel for how things work in a restart while it is dead and on the move. This became an issue for folks with the early models that had the TPS issues as the bike would die while on the move at slow speeds. So, when it does happen whatcha gonna do?

 

[FZ1inNH]

Absolutely. You may also want to kill it while you are just riding along so you can get a feel for how things work in a restart while it is dead and on the move. This became an issue for folks with the early models that had the TPS issues as the bike would die while on the move at slow speeds. So, when it does happen whatcha gonna do?

This might be a good time to suggest we start a sticky for Troubleshooting and safety checks? Kind of a "Problem:" followed with 3 - 5 simple steps on how to diagnose and/or fix? :thumbup: Instead of a HowTo, it could be a WhatIf?

 

[dankatz]

Good thread. I find that the clutch friction zone is so short that it is easy to stall even if you've ridden for a while. I never had that issue with my previous Ninja. It is frustrating because it makes it hard to start quickly. On a seaparate note, with all the rain I found out yesterday how nice it would have been to have ABS. I managed to lock both wheels fairly easily and noticed my rear end coming sideways. I wasn't going too fast, so let go of the brakes and all was fine. With my first bike I made many stupid mistakes that precluded me fom starting the bike (sidestand down, pet**** in off position, ignition switch on off, etc...) It gets better with time.

 

[HavBlue]

This might be a good time to suggest we start a sticky for Troubleshooting and safety checks? Kind of a "Problem:" followed with 3 - 5 simple steps on how to diagnose and/or fix? :thumbup: Instead of a HowTo, it could be a WhatIf?

I like it.... It boils down to inputing the problems such as stalling (no restart) dying on the move (quick restart) and so on. These things can and will be a rider safety and the corrective action must be one the rider does not have to think about. They just do it and get the heck out of there.

 

[HavBlue]

It gets better with time.

Yeah it does but I will tell you them Dunlop Sportmax tires I got with the bike flat sucked in the rain.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

You can "bump" start the bike as well if the batt dies. Find a small hill or get someone to push (by hand , not a car... LOL)... Put the bike in second gear and drop the clutch... the bike should start.

Finally, it is ok to jump start a bike with a car... but make sure the car's engine is off...

I have started many bikes using jumper cables while having the engine on. I have also used the accessory power plug or cigarette lighter to charge batteries while things are off (read as the cage ain't runnin but the circuit is complete). I have never had a problem with either.

My roomate has an '07 R6 and one night, he left the key in the ignition after riding his bike. The next morning, the bike was completely dead. I don't think push starting the bike was an option. He actually had no juice. We tried jump starting his bike with his truck with the truck engine off and the bike would not turn over. Then we tried starting the bike with the truck engine on, and then it did finally turned over.

 

[wrightme43]

Absolutely. You may also want to kill it while you are just riding along so you can get a feel for how things work in a restart while it is dead and on the move. This became an issue for folks with the early models that had the TPS issues as the bike would die while on the move at slow speeds. So, when it does happen whatcha gonna do?

This is a very good idea. I do this, its just another trick to have in the bag if you need it.

 

[HavBlue]

This is a very good idea. I do this, its just another trick to have in the bag if you need it.

I couldn't agree more and it's a great trick to have in any bag.... Especially when not knowing what to do on a split seconds notice could literally keep us from getting run over.

 

[Keits]

Lots of good info...but to clarify my situation at the start of this thread: I stalled... but even once I was on the side of the road and in neutral (clutch in and clutch out) the starter tried to work but died after a second as if the battery was not supplying enough charge to actually start the bike. I let it sit for ten min or so but upon trying again, the battery again seemed to die prior to the motor turning over. Dealership was stumped. No codes to indicate a problem. I put another 120 miles on the bike since with no other probs. Maybe it was a solar flare or a UFO

 

[CanadianFZ6]

I didnt think you could push start fuel injection?

I guess you can, because I have done it twice (just to test) on my FZ6.... You can test it yourself... cruise along in second (not too fast). Pull in the clutch and hit the kill switch. Engine is now off and you are coasting with the clutch in. Then Re-engage the kill switch. Making sure you are not going too fast... dump the clutch. Your bike should fire right up.

 

[Denver_FZ6]

The g/f ... signed up for the MSF course and pushed me to do so also.
Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?

Of course... didn't we all get pushed into cycles by a significant other? Made me take the course, made me window shop at the dealership, made me test drive the FZ6. So cruel.