More elaborate air intake mods?

[corekneelius]

so ive been searching and searching and i haven't found anything relating specifically to this topic, and i will not be surprised if it seems lame/stupid/dumb/idiotic/(whatever you want to call it) to some members but here goes...

what is known about a more elaborate airbox mod? anything?

ive got a bit of an idea that just wont leave me alone...

i cant stop thinking about adding some plumbing to the original fz6 airbox to suck up air from somewhere else, mainly towards the front, maybe even utilizing those two "scoop looking openings" on the front fairing as a starting place for some ducting leading into the airbox itself...

my questions are...anyone here know anything about pneumatic thermodynamics? (thermodynamics has always been something that i would love to truly understand in its entirety, although in the instance of the theories of thermodynamics this (understanding everything about thermodynamics) would be nearly impossible (or so i infer...) anyways on to it...i have questions about the significance of the change in temperature the air intake charge goes through in the time from cruising down the road at (for example) 70mph (@ say 90 degree Fahrenheit ambient temp) until it reaches the combustion chamber...

what i am GUESSING is the reading on my display of the temp inside the airbox is pretty much worthless (just hear me out, i am not educated in this area) due to the air intake charge traveling X distance through components that are Y temperature that are surrounded by components that are Z temperature

does this make sense? basically what i am wondering is...if ambient temp is 90f, airbox read is 100f, will lowering box temp closer to ambient temp potentially increase performance?

main question about my idea : will directing air from a cooler source (ie a cooler = source other than from directly above the motor/header) positively affect performance (even in the slightest, most trivial measure)?

secondary question : is any kind of ram air idea just too far fetched? or could it potentially be an idea that could improve performance through tuning with a pc3 (once again, even in the most trivial measure of in crease in performance)

yeah so... i think thats about it... sorry if anyone has posted on this before

-Jake

 

[Hellgate]

I think it would help quite a bit.

From Sport Rider: Most importantly, the level of intake pressure on the road would be relative to the velocity of the motorcycle. If the airbox were pressurized to 20mb at 150 mph, it would be correspondingly less pressurized at 120 mph and still less at 70 mph. We had no way of reproducing this effect on the dyno, but if we could show that an air pressure of, say, 20mb gave a boost of 3 bhp at a certain point in the rev range and could then relate that to real road conditions, we'd have a fair idea of what the actual power output on the road would be.

Check all 3 articles. I think you might be able to fab one up.

Oops, here's the link: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9912_ram/index.html

 

[corekneelius]

I think it would help quite a bit.

From Sport Rider: [COLOR=\\"SeaGreen\\"]Most importantly, the level of intake pressure on the road would be relative to the velocity of the motorcycle. If the airbox were pressurized to 20mb at 150 mph, it would be correspondingly less pressurized at 120 mph and still less at 70 mph. We had no way of reproducing this effect on the dyno, but if we could show that an air pressure of, say, 20mb gave a boost of 3 bhp at a certain point in the rev range and could then relate that to real road conditions, we'd have a fair idea of what the actual power output on the road would be.[/COLOR]

Check all 3 articles. I think you might be able to fab one up.

roger wilco

so long as you understand a dyno run will not be happening until new pipes pc3 kn airbox mod are complete so i wont know definite gain/loss untill post dyno

 

[Bo67]

Hey at least you're thinking! Some of the best inventions in the world started out as "what if" thoughts.
I'm no expert either on the subject but my concern with ductwork would be all the bugs that could wind up going down the snorkel hoses and winding up collecting on the filter over time (at least where I live). I'm ALWAYS cleaning bug carcasses out of those scoops!

 

[jmerch44]

I can't imagine how you would get the ductwork to fit under the tank, theres almost no room. But you sound determined and smarter than me so I say give it a shot.

 

[Fred]

I've been mulling this idea over in my head a bit. Years back I did some reading on what is needed for a good ram air system. Here's what I've learned.

1. The ducting needs to be very smooth on the inside with no sharp bends or rough surfaces. You want smooth (laminar) airflow for the entire distance.

2. Location of the intakes is critical. You need to find a location that sees high air pressure while riding. You could check this out by mounting a sensitive pressure gauge to the bike with a hose going to the place where you want your air scoop. Go for a ride and note the air pressure at a set speed. Compare with other locations.

3. Crosswinds can create a venturi effect across the intake opening. This will reduce the airbox pressure. (It's like blowing across the top of a beer bottle.) This is why modern ram air intakes have more than one opening, to compensate for the crosswinds. One of the original ram air bikes had a single opening and crosswinds created a dip in power that could be felt by the rider.

4. The opening needs to start small and smoothly increase in cross section as it approaches the airbox. The reason for this is that you want to smoothly decelerate the air as it approaches the airbox. This is counterintuitive at first.

The air at high speed has a lot of energy. It's flowing through a narrow pipe. As the pipe widens, the air slows down because it no longer has to flow through a narrow pipe. The wider pipe can handle the same amount of air at a slower speed.

Conservation of energy states that the kinetic energy of the air has to go somewhere. It is converted into potential energy in the form of higher air pressure.

A sudden increase in size does no good, as the airflow becomes turbulent. It needs to keep flowing smoothly to make a good transition.

Another way to look at it is by thinking about Bernouli's principle. Faster moving air has a lower pressure that slower moving air.

If the bike is moving at 70mph, than the air entering the ducting is moving at 70mph. And it's at 14.7 PSI (Atmospheric pressure.) As the duct widens it begins to slow down. Since it's slower, its pressure is higher. And high pressure is the name of the game.

So to summarize, what you need is smooth ducting from the front of the fairing, with no kinks or sharp bends, into the airbox via two ducts that increase in size as they approach the airbox.

The only way I can see to do this would be to cut holes in the frame and route ducts through them. You get into issues with weakening the frame when you do this, so plan on reinforcing the cut areas.

The fake scoops on the front of the fairing might work for ram air, but I suspect that they're too far back to work properly. Better to build all new scoops that mount below the headlights.

Once your ram air system is working, you'll most likely have to retune to take advantage of it. The stock ECU might be able to handle it OK, but don't count on it. Yamaha didn't plan on ram air with the FZ6. It may not know how to respond to pressures above one atmosphere. The MAP sensor may not even be able to read pressures above one atmosphere.

It would be a serious project to make this work. In many ways, it would be simpler to just fit a turbocharger! The plumbing is not as complex and the power returns are several orders of magnitude greater.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Fred

 

[pooty]

yes you are on to something. i am not a professor or mechanic. but more air has to be good. the room as stated before is the problem.

 

[Fred]

One other note. There's ram air, and there's a cold air intake.

A cold air intake is much simpler. You don't need all the fancy flow dynamics. You just run a smooth pipe of the right size and have it come out in fresh air that's not heated by the engine and radiator. You won't be able to pressurize your airbox. But colder air is denser, so contains more oxygen. And your bike's stock computer can see colder air and adjust for it without any need for retuning.

 

[bertmoog]

Very intelligent and helpful as usual, Fred. Some good food for thought. :rockon:

There still doesn't appear to be any room to do the cold air intake either at least without making sharp bends and constricting airflow.

 

[Hellgate]

As I was doing the 4000 mile service and washing the bike today I was eyeballing how a duct or set of ducts could be routed. It looks like if the "tube" were squished enough it could be done. Now how the heck you make it I'm not sure.

While I was at O'Riley's this morning buying degreaser and I saw that they set do-it-yourself K&N like, filter charger parts. The idea is your buy the "legos" you need to whip together your own kit. Me thinks there may be a fitting or two that could be lifted from there, or fittings from the PVC plumbing section and Lowe Depot to fab up ports into the air box. Then get a thinner two to three inch length of tubing to go from the fairing openings to the ports you created in the air box.

I was reading an article last night that stated the ram air didn't make much difference until 80 to 100 mph. But as Fred stated it may help with cold air...

 

[coursonap]

I have been toying with the idea for a ram air style of air intake to hook up to the snorkel. There is a place here in illinois that extrudes plastic I am still trying to figure a way to make it work in my spare timw which aint much. When I have somthing moked up i will post pics.

 

[Cali rider]

One other note. There's ram air, and there's a cold air intake.

A cold air intake is much simpler. You don't need all the fancy flow dynamics. You just run a smooth pipe of the right size and have it come out in fresh air that's not heated by the engine and radiator. You won't be able to pressurize your airbox. But colder air is denser, so contains more oxygen. And your bike's stock computer can see colder air and adjust for it without any need for retuning.

+1 on this statement. Ram-air would be useless on an FZ most of the time as the speed required for activation of the tuned inlet is too high for the street. Cold-air-intake (CAI) would show throttle response improvement at all speeds as increased air density is the key to power. Now, actually building an accurate inlet tract that would fit the limited opening between frame and tank would be a challenge but it could be done. I'm anxious to see someone attempt it.

 

[Fred]

Hey, a lightbulb just came on! It's a dim, flickering Beavis light bulb, but it's definitely glowing!

Here's how I would run ram air ducts without modifying the motorcycle's frame. At least on the 07 and 08 fairings.

Short version. Go through the tank.

Long version.

Cut out the front lobes of the tank and weld in metal ducts for the ram air to go through. On the insides where they meet the airbox, have flanges that press up against the existing airbox top. They will seal with foam weatherstripping when the tank is in place. Then you cut holes in the airbox top to match.

On the outsides of the tank, they will connect to ducts that run inside the fairing, just below the black plastic panels.

So the connection from the tank to the duct happens invisibly since it's in the same place where the fairing already meets the tank. And it's all hidden under covers.

Once in the fairing, the ducts have plenty of room and can be run either to the fake intakes, or to real ones located elsewhere.

Unfortunately, my fairing is full already so I can't do this mod to my bike. What I need is another FZ6 that I can modify. And ideally I'd want somebody to fund this project since I am a student and can't really spend this kind of money on a project.



HEY PETE! I'VE GOT YOUR NEXT MOD!

Fred

 

[mstewar1]

Short version. Go through the tank.

This is what came to my mind when you'd mentioned modifying the frame in a previous post. That would be some fairly serious, creative metal work, re-working the tank. Have to wonder if it'd be worth it for the power gain. Just think of all of the riding time you'd lose...

 

[Nooj]

It's not simply a case of poking a hose out of the front of the bike. You won't get ram air to work on an FZ6 without totally redesigining the inlet and airbox, you'll need to have a 'tuned' inlet to funnel air in and make it higher than ambient air pressure inside the airbox, not something you can do with a file, a hacksaw and some guess work.

On most bike that have it, you'd be mostly looking a license loosing speeds before any effect came in. Different bikes that have it have a huge veriety of results:

GSXR750 = 100pmh
Honda Blackbird = 90mph
Hayabusa = 145mph
R6 = 85mph
ZX7R = 60mph which is the exception

Cold air intakes would be a much more useful mod as it would benefit you at all speeds. The colder the air, the denser it is, the more oxigen it contains, so the more fuel can be burned in it. Combine this with making the airbox volume larger and you'd get some noticable gains in power.

A popular mod on the Aprilia forum is to unscrew and disgard the top half of the airbox all together and add an airtight seal around the lip of bottom section so it seals against the underside of the tank, making the underside of the tank the top of the airbox. Coupled with a more freely breathing filter and a custom map this could get you a couple of extra bhp.

 

[Hellgate]

^^^ Now that is a very creative idea.

While I was washing the bike I noticed that the gap between the bottom lip of the tank and the frame looks to be about 3/8s of an inch. I think the trick is to keep the same volume of space and the air moves along its path to the air box and it might work without hacking things too much. The tube may get wide and it might work. Need to brush up on Bernoulli's principle first.

 

[Oscar54]

I can't imagine how you would get the ductwork to fit under the tank, theres almost no room. But you sound determined and smarter than me so I say give it a shot.

Ditto!

If you can manage to duct cool air from the faring directly to the airbox, it should boost performance. Same concept to the intercooler on a turbo.

 

[bigdog9191999]

This is what came to my mind when you'd mentioned modifying the frame in a previous post. That would be some fairly serious, creative metal work, re-working the tank. Have to wonder if it'd be worth it for the power gain. Just think of all of the riding time you'd lose...

this could work.. by and ebay tank and take your time... the biggest thing i see being lost is fuel capacity

 

[corekneelius]

It's not simply a case of poking a hose out of the front of the bike. You won't get ram air to work on an FZ6 without totally redesigining the inlet and airbox, you'll need to have a 'tuned' inlet to funnel air in and make it higher than ambient air pressure inside the airbox, not something you can do with a file, a hacksaw and some guess work.

On most bike that have it, you'd be mostly looking a license loosing speeds before any effect came in. Different bikes that have it have a huge veriety of results:

GSXR750 = 100pmh
Honda Blackbird = 90mph
Hayabusa = 145mph
R6 = 85mph
ZX7R = 60mph which is the exception

Cold air intakes would be a much more useful mod as it would benefit you at all speeds. The colder the air, the denser it is, the more oxigen it contains, so the more fuel can be burned in it. Combine this with making the airbox volume larger and you'd get some noticable gains in power.

A popular mod on the Aprilia forum is to unscrew and disgard the top half of the airbox all together and add an airtight seal around the lip of bottom section so it seals against the underside of the tank, making the underside of the tank the top of the airbox. Coupled with a more freely breathing filter and a custom map this could get you a couple of extra bhp.

nice! thanks for another POV on the topic, with the responses so far i am confident that together we can dump all of our ideas into the melting pot and come out with something "brilliant"...i cant wait to see where it goes from here...thanks to everyone for their responses to this thread, im sure something will come of this that will help anyone interested!

 

[corekneelius]

ok for a moment everyone throw everything said about "RAM AIR" out of mind...for the sake of developing a "cold" ie("colder") air intake system.

so, i am down, BUT NOT OUT!!!!, about developing a "ram air" system, i am going to try and turn my personal focus on to what may be possible with possible "cold air" systems.

what if(s):

1)what if the stock intake opening on the lid of the airbox was sealed completely (like it was never there), where would you (i would appreciate everyones opinion here) put a opening for air to enter, regardless of where the filter location currently is, so having said this, I also imply complete rework of the "airbox" post-filtration.

2)what if the stock opening was located somewhere besides its current location? (im taking a shot in the dark here-at a glance, the tank seems to act as an insulator for the air entering the airbox...and the box itself (obviously-as heat rises, right?)...please feel free to input info here as i am no scientist

3)lets just pretend for the sake of pretending, that the airbox inlet was facing the rear of the bike, or even if there were to be multiple inlets on the sides of the box. what if a combination of front/side inlets was to be used? what side effects would prove problematic for side inlets (i think fred mentioned something about blowing over the top of a beer bottle on something like this)

4)what would you do if aesthetic value (looks) were of no concern, what would YOU do?

5)this is a VERY extreme "what if"...WHAT IF-the frame could somehow be modified to funnel air into the box?

im sure i have covered less than 1% of the what ifs here, but i am hoping that the minds of this forum can come together and we can collectively come up with a feasible mod to bring cold air into all of our boxes!

-Jake