Misti here saying hello!

[Misti]

Welcome Welcome Welcome. I also dirt bike quit a bit. Lots of fun. It's raining here in Oregon and the riding is great now. Do you agree dirt riding helps on the street?

Thanks Rains here in Vancouver a lot as well! I agree that dirtbiking helps with riding on the street to a certain degree. Dirbiking helps give you a feel for what it is like to slide around and gives you a better understanding of traction. It lets you practice sliding/recovering/good throttle control in a safer environment. This is really beneficial for street riding and developing more confidence in wet or slippery conditions and for knowing how to deal with a loss of traction. I know that when I did a season of dirtbiking it helped my racing a lot because I didn't get so freaked out when my bike slid, or when I ended up off the track

However, dirtbiking can also create a few bad habits on the street because some techniques are different on dirt then on the road. For example, a crossed up body position while riding in the dirt is preferred. On the street you want your body to naturally "go with the bike" so it can be confusing to switch back and fourth. I can often tell who the dirtbikers are when they come to the California Superbike School because they are extremely crossed up when riding and have no issues with sliding their sportbikes around the track

Hope that answers your question.

Happy riding!

Misti

 

[Misti]

OK, lets begin the Q&A sessions...

1. On the track you have set braking points you use when setting up for a corner.

What are some simple methods to use on the street to gain a better feel for entering familiar and unfamiliar corners. Is there a typical "good" gear to be in upon entry? Usual road markings to use as a reference point? Any other common things found on the street we may overlook that may assist in proper cornering?

2.What practice drills do you typically apply on the street that directly come from your track/racing experience?

Thank you for any input you can provide:thumbup:

Thanks for the questions. Let's see.
1. One of the best methods for use on the street to enter familiar and unfamiliar corners is to use what we call at the Superbike School the TWO STEP. Basically it is the combination of looking into the turn to spot the apex (where you want your bike to be in the middle of the turn) BEFORE you actually turn the bike. Most riders look and turn the bike at the same time and that really doesn't give you much visual information about the upcoming corner. Looking into the turn BEFORE you actually turn will give you more info and a more specific location for where you should be mid turn. It is a tough habit to break but very rewarding in ensuring that you end up in a good location mid turn.

There isn't any specific gear that you should be in for a given turn, just one that allows you to get a good drive out of the corner.

References points can be anything on the street, painted lines, signs on the side of the road, tire snakes, dark patches, etc. The important part is that the reference point you pick gives you some information about your LOCATION. It either tells you that you should "turn here" or "apex there" etc.

2. I actually practice all of the drills taken from the Superbike School program on the street AND on the track. The most important ones for the road in my opinion are throttle control and some of the visual skills like the Two Step mentioned above, looking up the road towards the vanishing point, and also keeping your vision pulled out wide so you don't target fixate on anything.

Hope that answers your questions...anyone have any comments or further questions?

Misti

 

[oldfast007]

Thank you very much, great tips and information, we can all benefit from it!:thumbup:

Nice that you are willing to share what expirience and practice have taught you...

I am sure you will be getting more questions as time progresses, I am already thinking of few more myself

 

[Misti]

Thank you very much, great tips and information, we can all benefit from it!:thumbup:

Nice that you are willing to share what expirience and practice have taught you...

I am sure you will be getting more questions as time progresses, I am already thinking of few more myself

Fire away

Misti

 

[Nelly]

Welcome to the best site on the net :spank:,

I have a question please, I don't ride hard on the street but I do hustle along when the conditions allow. I am happy riding on dry and damp roads and stay relaxed. I now live in country where it rains mostly all the time.

I find that in the wet I get tense and I lose all feel from my tyres and frame.
This causes me to have to make adjustments mid corner which only increases the vagueness I feel.

Have you any advice for gaining the same feedback confidence in the tyres that I experience in the dry?

Many thanks in advance.

Nelly:thumbup:

 

[Hellgate]

So I've got a question for you Misti. I raced with the MRA in the '80's and well...crossed up is how we all rode, Rainey, Cooley, Schwantz and Co. did, so we did too. It is what it was. So fast forward 20+ years and I'm trying to adopt the "new" style, but when I get dicing I forget all about it and cross up. Any ideas for breaking my old reflexes?

1988:

View attachment 23630

2009: Me on the right, DefyInertia on the left.

View attachment 23631

 

[Misti]

Welcome to the best site on the net :spank:,

I have a question please, I don't ride hard on the street but I do hustle along when the conditions allow. I am happy riding on dry and damp roads and stay relaxed. I now live in country where it rains mostly all the time.

I find that in the wet I get tense and I lose all feel from my tyres and frame.
This causes me to have to make adjustments mid corner which only increases the vagueness I feel.

Have you any advice for gaining the same feedback confidence in the tyres that I experience in the dry?

Many thanks in advance.

Nelly:thumbup:

I think you touched on the main problem and that is the fact that when you are riding in the wet you get tense, and being tense on the bike will cause all sorts of handling issues. In order to understand a little bit more about YOUR unique problem, I want to ask you a few more questions.

What do you think is the main REASON why you start getting tense on the bike? Are you getting tense when the bike loses traction or slips or are you generally tense whenever it rains. How does your body position and riding style differ from the wet to the dry? What kind of adjustments are you making mid corner?

Let me know the answers to these questions and we can look at your situation a little bit further.

Cheers,
Misti

 

[Misti]

So I've got a question for you Misti. I raced with the MRA in the '80's and well...crossed up is how we all rode, Rainey, Cooley, Schwantz and Co. did, so we did too. It is what it was. So fast forward 20+ years and I'm trying to adopt the "new" style, but when I get dicing I forget all about it and cross up. Any ideas for breaking my old reflexes?

1988:

View attachment 23630

2009: Me on the right, DefyInertia on the left.

View attachment 23631

Hellgate,

Good question and it is a VERY common problem that a lot of riders face. It's tough to break the old crossed up habit. First step is to work on a body position that allows you to be uncrossed and get used to that style at a slower pace. From there you want to continue to work on it as the pace gets faster and faster. When you notice that you are reverting to your old habits again, bring the pace back down a bit, work on your body position and then bring the pace back up. Keep doing that until you have kicked the habit.

Looking at your photos, I think your problem might be based on how close you are sitting against the tank. It looks like you are sitting right against the tank and when you do that and then try to hang off, you become unconnected to the bike and end up twisting. Try sitting a bit further back in the seat so that your outside knee fits better into the cut out of the tank and only hang your butt off the seat a little bit. Always keep your outside knee dug into the tank and don't allow it to lose connection and then have your upper body fall into the turn.

Let me know if any of those things help

Cheers and keep the questions coming or feel free to discuss any riding technique topic! I love a good conversation :cheer:

Misti

 

[Hellgate]

Thanks Misti. Good call on too close to the tank, I think it is like a security blanket thing! Next track day I'll work on position and see what happens.

 

[Dennis in NH]

What a great thread. Thanks for the answers and advice Misti -- I'm already learning stuff.

Here's another for you. I think that there are techniques that make you a good rider (and I continue to learn them from here and elsewhere). I also understand that with good technique, physical strength becomes less important. I also think that there must be some "off bike" exercises I can perform to make me a better rider. What are some that you use or recommend?

I do crunches, back stretches, deadlifts with relatively light weight (for me @165lbs I use 50 lbs), pushups with hands in place similar to spacing of handlebars, some squats with feet in position similar to pegs, some curls and I use a hand grip exerciser to help me with braking/clutching and simultaneous braking/throttle.

Any others?

I know that riding is probably the best way to practice being a really good rider but I also know that after riding (sport riding), I'm a little sore. If I ever do a track day, I'd like to prep myself up to be strong enough to last the entire track day and not konk out before the end and be able to walk normally after I get home and the next day.

Thanks,

Dennis

ps. :welcome: and it's good to have you here :thumbup:

 

[Misti]

What a great thread. Thanks for the answers and advice Misti -- I'm already learning stuff.

Here's another for you. I think that there are techniques that make you a good rider (and I continue to learn them from here and elsewhere). I also understand that with good technique, physical strength becomes less important. I also think that there must be some "off bike" exercises I can perform to make me a better rider. What are some that you use or recommend?

I do crunches, back stretches, deadlifts with relatively light weight (for me @165lbs I use 50 lbs), pushups with hands in place similar to spacing of handlebars, some squats with feet in position similar to pegs, some curls and I use a hand grip exerciser to help me with braking/clutching and simultaneous braking/throttle.

Any others?

I know that riding is probably the best way to practice being a really good rider but I also know that after riding (sport riding), I'm a little sore. If I ever do a track day, I'd like to prep myself up to be strong enough to last the entire track day and not konk out before the end and be able to walk normally after I get home and the next day.

Thanks,

Dennis

ps. :welcome: and it's good to have you here :thumbup:

Hi Dennis,

Sounds like you are doing all the right things in order to stay fit and strong for riding but I think your biggest problem probably has to do with how hard you are working while riding.

Riders tend to do too much on the bike. They use too much muscle power to get the bike turned, they grip the bars too tight, they move around too much and generally over exert themselves when they don't have too. What I would suggest is to figure out what is hurting you or bothering you the most after you do a track day and then work on preventing it from happening.

For example, if you arms are sore during your riding then it is telling you that you are probably holding on too tight and that you need to relax more on the bike and work less. Does that make sense?

Having your arms sore is not a good thing, legs sore is a bit different because it means you are at least working the right muscles. That said, I was able to coach days at a time, riding ALL day and feel just fine.

See if you can isolate more specifically what muscles hurt and maybe we can adjust your body position.

What are some ways that you guys have found enabled you to work less while riding?

Misti

 

[FZ1inNH]

Misti, you've hit one out of the park for Dennis. Thanks!

I find what when I am riding and it could be either heavy traffic or carving corners, if I feel any soreness at all, I immediately know to relax those muscles. When I am having a great day on the bike, I feel just as relaxed and rested when I get off as when I got on. That is when I know I let the bike do the work for me while I merely nudged her in all the right directions. I'd also like to point out that sometimes, it's not just you over-working the bike, it's the lack of proper setup on the bike or inferior equipment that a rider doesn't understand. I can say this: When I was on the FZ6 with stock suspension, I found myself sore more often than I liked. I thought it was just me holding on too tight and my upper back, arms and neck would bother me. Well, the same runs today on the FZ1 with the suspension better tuned to suit my needs have resulted in longer days, the same runs and feeling great. I attribute this to equipment that performs better causing me to do less work. :thumbup:

Something else you just helped with too Misti, like Pete (Hellgate), I tend to ride up on the tank more than I should and that is an old habit from the dirt track days. My mind *knows* that the corning is easier with the position you described but it's hard to break some habits even after YEARS of not using them.

 

[Dennis in NH]

Hi Dennis,

Sounds like you are doing all the right things in order to stay fit and strong for riding but I think your biggest problem probably has to do with how hard you are working while riding.

Riders tend to do too much on the bike. They use too much muscle power to get the bike turned, they grip the bars too tight, they move around too much and generally over exert themselves when they don't have too. What I would suggest is to figure out what is hurting you or bothering you the most after you do a track day and then work on preventing it from happening.

For example, if you arms are sore during your riding then it is telling you that you are probably holding on too tight and that you need to relax more on the bike and work less. Does that make sense?

Having your arms sore is not a good thing, legs sore is a bit different because it means you are at least working the right muscles. That said, I was able to coach days at a time, riding ALL day and feel just fine.

See if you can isolate more specifically what muscles hurt and maybe we can adjust your body position.

What are some ways that you guys have found enabled you to work less while riding?

Misti

Thank you Misti. Today on my commute to/from work, I concentrated on the things that cause fatigue. I'll try to concentrate more on letting things relax a bit more.

So, I'll know I'm doing things better if my body is less sore from long rides.

For me in particular, I tend to try to balance 3 things: my lower back, my knees, my triceps. During long rides, if my back starts to get sore, I let my triceps take more weight; I also let my knees (up against the tank) take more weight; in all, I try to balance so that I have 3 things holding me up instead of just one. I also have a tank bag and try to lay on that to reduce any fatigue. For the most part, my triceps and inner thighs don't get sore; it's my lower back that get sore and I use the other two to help it out.

One other thing is that my right hand gets a little tired (until I consciously notice and loosen) because I think I'm gripping the throttle grip tight because I want to keep good (i.e., precise) throttle control. My left hand tends to stay relaxed.

I guess I just have to keep riding and keep thinking to relax. Maybe one day, I'll learn good habits to avoid tenseness and it will help my fatigue.

Thanks again.

Dennis

 

[Misti]

Thank you Misti. Today on my commute to/from work, I concentrated on the things that cause fatigue. I'll try to concentrate more on letting things relax a bit more.

So, I'll know I'm doing things better if my body is less sore from long rides.

For me in particular, I tend to try to balance 3 things: my lower back, my knees, my triceps. During long rides, if my back starts to get sore, I let my triceps take more weight; I also let my knees (up against the tank) take more weight; in all, I try to balance so that I have 3 things holding me up instead of just one. I also have a tank bag and try to lay on that to reduce any fatigue. For the most part, my triceps and inner thighs don't get sore; it's my lower back that get sore and I use the other two to help it out.

One other thing is that my right hand gets a little tired (until I consciously notice and loosen) because I think I'm gripping the throttle grip tight because I want to keep good (i.e., precise) throttle control. My left hand tends to stay relaxed.

I guess I just have to keep riding and keep thinking to relax. Maybe one day, I'll learn good habits to avoid tenseness and it will help my fatigue.

Thanks again.

Dennis

No problem Dennis and I hope it helps in the long run. Staying relaxed on the bike is very very important and can make a huge difference in your riding.

Sometimes it helps to notice what kind of situations make you tense up on the bike as well. Certain issues can be solved by just reminding yourself to be relaxed but other issues might need other solutions. Take your comment about your throttle hand being tense for example. You might be able to remedy that by just telling yourself to relax your throttle hand, or, you might need to spend some time really looking at what good throttle control really is and how to properly achieve it.

What are some riding situations out there that cause you guys to get tense?

Misti

 

[Misti]

No problem Dennis and I hope it helps in the long run. Staying relaxed on the bike is very very important and can make a huge difference in your riding.

Sometimes it helps to notice what kind of situations make you tense up on the bike as well. Certain issues can be solved by just reminding yourself to be relaxed but other issues might need other solutions. Take your comment about your throttle hand being tense for example. You might be able to remedy that by just telling yourself to relax your throttle hand, or, you might need to spend some time really looking at what good throttle control really is and how to properly achieve it.

What are some riding situations out there that cause you guys to get tense?

Misti

OK, I'll go. Some of the situations that cause me to get tense are high speed entries to corners. I'm using racing as an example but I would get more freaked out on the high speed entries than anywhere else, and I would tense up a bit going in and mid corner. I tried and tried to just relax in those situations but I just couldn't. It wasn't until I figured out (with the help of Keith Code who was private coaching me at the time) that it had everything to do with my visual skills.

Basically, the smoother the flow of visual information going in, the smoother you are able to be with your controls of the motorcycle. When I was approaching the entries to high speed corners my vision would shrink down and I would experience a bit of tunnel vision, which would make me FEEL like I was going in too fast. That fear triggered the survival reactions of getting tense on the bike.

I had to work on some specific visual drills in order to help me go faster and faster in those types of riding situations, and to avoid getting tense.

What are the riding situations that cause you to get tense?

Misti

 

[oldfast007]

The biggest one for me is figuring out I've turned in way too soon on any given corner apexed early and started drifting wide...The onset of tense begins!!

I absolutely know it has everything to do with not getting the visuals correct, the magic "triangle" of plotting your way through a corner. It's kicks my but to look back and see exactly where the turn in point should have been vs where I started. What are those visual training practices in the order one should approach them?

Thanks! Eric.

 

[Misti]

The biggest one for me is figuring out I've turned in way too soon on any given corner apexed early and started drifting wide...The onset of tense begins!!

I absolutely know it has everything to do with not getting the visuals correct, the magic "triangle" of plotting your way through a corner. It's kicks my but to look back and see exactly where the turn in point should have been vs where I started. What are those visual training practices in the order one should approach them?

Thanks! Eric.

Oh that is a good one Eric, and a problem that a lot of riders struggle with. Turning early is a common error and a few of the results are, as you mentioned, hitting an early apex, running wide and getting tense. Bad combo's! Other effects of turning too early are multiple steering inputs in the corner, continuing to lean and give gas at the same time, and too much lean angle (often resulting in a low side).

So, how do you solve this problem? Well, you mentioned visual skills which play a huge part. Having a defined turn in point that wasn't too early would be a start and having good reference points that help you get to your turn point consistently and that lead you towards your apex are also important.

However, even with those things there may still be the tendency to turn the bike in early. You could tell yourself over and over again to turn at a certain point, but if you haven't figured out the REASON why you feel you have to turn in early there will be no way that you will be able to solve the problem.

There are a few common reasons why people have the urge to turn in early,what do you think might be one of the reasons why you do it?

Misti

 

[oldfast007]

For me, some of the reasons are... Carrying to much speed into the corner, braking too late, or just the general feeling that your turn in is too late and may result in having to lean more than you should for the corner, a lot of it for me is perception, or lack there of...

I think finding the correct "points" ( speed, turn in, braking, gear selection, etc) cloud or make more difficult just having a good feel for the corner, I don't know sometimes I think people(read me) just over think it...

I still struggle with it as mentioned but I also find some of those rare corners I just nail and it all feels perfect then when you try to think through all the things that made it perfect for you, you can't freakin remember all the steps

 

[Misti]

For me, some of the reasons are... Carrying to much speed into the corner, braking too late, or just the general feeling that your turn in is too late and may result in having to lean more than you should for the corner, a lot of it for me is perception, or lack there of...

I think finding the correct "points" ( speed, turn in, braking, gear selection, etc) cloud or make more difficult just having a good feel for the corner, I don't know sometimes I think people(read me) just over think it...

I still struggle with it as mentioned but I also find some of those rare corners I just nail and it all feels perfect then when you try to think through all the things that made it perfect for you, you can't freakin remember all the steps

Carrying too much speed is probably the most common reason why people turn in too early. It also causes other survival reactions like tensing up on the bars, braking problems, and target fixation. So how do you go about getting your entry speed set just right every time?

There is an exercise we do at the Superbike School called the two-step where you look into the turn BEFORE you actually turn the bike. What a lot of people do is look and turn at the same time, but when you do that, you are kind of like guessing where you will end up in the middle of the corner. When you look into the turn BEFORE you actually turn the bike, you can pick a really specific apex point for where you want the bike to be mid corner. Not only does this help get you more consistent with your lines and secure your location on the road or track better, but it also helps with your perception of entry speed. When you look before you turn the bike, you are less likely to feel like you are going into the turn too fast.

Your visual skills, or lack thereof are what usually sets off the "in too fast" reactions. Can anyone comment on the 2- step process, or other visual techniques that help with your perception of speed?

Misti

 

[Drinky]

Hi Misti, Welcome, love to read some good advice from a experienced rider!
I've only been riding for a year, and am taking the different courses available here to learn how to ride fast&safe, but I have 1 big issue.

The people I ride with usually have much more powerfull bikes than my fz6,
(zx6r, zx10r, even a zzr1400 (big but fast)) and I notice that when I'm going through the mountains with em, I obviously have to shift more due to the lack of power throughout the rpm range. But when I approach a corner, slow down and shift down, my rear tire locks up and slides abit, causing me to poop my pants (not literaly lol) and stiffen op, sometimes completely messing up the corner, and twice now almost had a near crash (heart pounding so bad it'll sound like a vtwin) Too bad the fz6 doesn't have a slipper clutch, but any tips are welcome!