Hot Starting Issues with Power Commander

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I let mine power up (pump prime), tach needle come back to 0 then hit the starter(no throttle). Cold or hot, fire's up and runs..

I don't have a PC, so I can't comment on your issue, mine starts and runs fine. One less thing to mess with/ fail..

No TRIPLE POSTS either.

 

[Motogiro]

Oh man, triple post here I come. But I think I found something and it seems to important not to throw into this thread...

Taken directly from this FAQ on the PowerCommander Website is this:



Source : Tuning Issues > Hard Start

I never actually tried this because I always thought it was bad to start before the fuel rail was pressurized. Usually, when I hear the pump turn on, I stop cranking. This very well might have been the solution. But of course I uninstalled the PC3 tonight. I might just throw it back in and try it out tomorrow!

Any thoughts on this?

The injectors are operated by the ECU not the fuel pump.... I had a PClll on an S-1 FZ6 and it always started , even after the pump primed.

 

[Mta1981]

I've always waited till the fuel pump finished priming, never had a problem. Is your ground wire to the Pc3 tight?

 

[ChanceCoats123]

The ground was secured so tightly that I almost broke the terminal off my battery when I unscrewed it. Lol

For now, I just have it off. I'll reinstall it when I get a new battery next riding season. I'm off to school in a couple days and I'm getting ready to winterize the bike.

 

[FinalImpact]

FWIW: if I were stuck with this issue the 2nd time it did the "no start" I'd be manually adding fuel to better asses its condition. If it ADDING fuel helps it, then that's the path I'd take on the fuel map! i.e. add fuel directly to intake TB's promptly after "no start" issue.
- Remember, when the engine is running at say it 200°F and you turn it off its temperature continues to increase for a period of time. SO - If the controller has an option for temperature compensation - that's where I'd be.

I may be mistaken here as I don't have the PCiii or PCv software loaded, but speculation says our implementation of the controller sucks if the only variables seen are RPM and FUEL (+/-) as that's only part of the picture especially when its piggybacked off the OEM map for those other variables. Thus, everything else is happening behind the scenes but we don't know what it is.
The bare minimum in fuel control Software is:
- vacuum = LOAD Imposed on engine
- air pressure (or differential pressure)
- air temperature
- water temperature ** Critical to this problem **
- ignition advance/retard (also needs to see the load aka vacuum)
- TPS Throttle Position
- CPS Crank Speed
In short - RPM is not enough as we don't know how they implemented the piggyback from those missing functions.


Rant \
If a wide band O2 sensor were used it could attempt to hit a target but once again I fear that was never an option for us. Does anyone have some screen shots of the FZ6 implementation of the PCx software?
/rant

PS - I have a Bazzaz controller and its also crippled in its implementation for our application.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

FWIW: if I were stuck with this issue the 2nd time it did the "no start" I'd be manually adding fuel to better asses its condition. If it ADDING fuel helps it, then that's the path I'd take on the fuel map! i.e. add fuel directly to intake TB's promptly after "no start" issue.
- Remember, when the engine is running at say it 200°F and you turn it off its temperature continues to increase for a period of time. SO - If the controller has an option for temperature compensation - that's where I'd be.

I may be mistaken here as I don't have the PCiii or PCv software loaded, but speculation says our implementation of the controller sucks if the only variables seen are RPM and FUEL (+/-) as that's only part of the picture especially when its piggybacked off the OEM map for those other variables. Thus, everything else is happening behind the scenes but we don't know what it is.
The bare minimum in fuel control is:
- vacuum = LOAD Imposed on engine
- air pressure (or differential pressure)
- air temperature
- water temperature ** Critical to this problem **
- ignition advance/retard (also needs to see the load aka vacuum)
In short - RPM is not enough as we don't know how they implemented the piggyback from those missing functions.


Rant \
If a wide band O2 sensor were used it could attempt to hit a target but once again I fear that was never an option for us. Does anyone have some screen shots of the FZ6 implementation of the PCx software?
/rant

PS - I have a Bazzaz controller and its also crippled in its implementation for our application.

FWIW, the PC3 does offer fueling changes based upon RPM, and throttle position. There is an ignition table as well, but I don't think our bike supports it because all of the values are grayed out and cannot be changed.

I do agree, there should be more options and sensors to vary the fuel which is being added (or reduced).

What I don't understand is how I'm having the issue and so many other users have never even heard of this type of problem. It leads me to believe it's a bike-related issue instead of with the PC3.

I did pull out my DMM and checked the battery voltage. At 4,000 rpm +/- 50, the battery was at 13.85v. I don't think this is quite as high as it should be, and the voltage dropped as low as 10.3v during cranking (if I recall correctly).

It seems odd to me that it would be a battery issue since the bike cranks over just fine even when it doesn't want to start. But anyway, the negative terminal is almost at the end of its day so I'll be getting a new one for the next riding season. That might help with this issue.

 

[FinalImpact]

FWIW, the PC3 does offer fueling changes based upon RPM, and throttle position. There is an ignition table as well, but I don't think our bike supports it because all of the values are grayed out and cannot be changed.

I do agree, there should be more options and sensors to vary the fuel which is being added (or reduced).

What I don't understand is how I'm having the issue and so many other users have never even heard of this type of problem. It leads me to believe it's a bike-related issue instead of with the PC3.

I did pull out my DMM and checked the battery voltage. At 4,000 rpm +/- 50, the battery was at 13.85v. I don't think this is quite as high as it should be, and the voltage dropped as low as 10.3v during cranking (if I recall correctly).

It seems odd to me that it would be a battery issue since the bike cranks over just fine even when it doesn't want to start. But anyway, the negative terminal is almost at the end of its day so I'll be getting a new one for the next riding season. That might help with this issue.

Sorry - my list didnt include the obvious
RPM & TPS... The only stuff seen in S/W.

Anway, i agree in that it may be enlightening an underlying issue your bike has like a leaky Pressure Regulator in the fuel pump or something like that. With you removing it does it appear to start when hot?

I mean maybe those maps your running are lean making it hotter than it would be otherwise thus inducing a problem that could be corrected in the map.

If using a zero map (ecu input = (same map as) pc output, does it start then? If not, some connection may not be getting through from the pc. The problem with that is the oem ecu should cry.
I'm guessing this will wait till another time so good luck with your classes, those are more important!

 

[JakeKo]

I can tell you right now that it has nothing to do with your PC3 or your loaded maps. I have the same issue with my FZ6 and I have just learned to accept it. This is what mine does; If I've been riding for about 10-15 minutes and my temp gets up towards 212-214 (Vegas, NV desert) and I want to stop for a drink at a gas station or I need to fill up and it only takes about 2 minutes to do, the bike won't start. I either have to push start it or I just wait a good 10 minutes for the bike to cool down before I try to start it. It only happens when I get it up to about 214 degrees and then it sits for a couple minutes and gets up to about 217-218 and at that point I don't even think about starting it because it will just continue to try and crank over. I'm sure we're not the only one this happens to. I will agree with a previous post about how the fuel is being burned off before it gets to the injectors or spark plugs. That makes total sense, but I'm not a fuel connoisseur.

Probably not what you want to hear,

Jake

 

[Motogiro]

I can tell you right now that it has nothing to do with your PC3 or your loaded maps. I have the same issue with my FZ6 and I have just learned to accept it. This is what mine does; If I've been riding for about 10-15 minutes and my temp gets up towards 212-214 (Vegas, NV desert) and I want to stop for a drink at a gas station or I need to fill up and it only takes about 2 minutes to do, the bike won't start. I either have to push start it or I just wait a good 10 minutes for the bike to cool down before I try to start it. It only happens when I get it up to about 214 degrees and then it sits for a couple minutes and gets up to about 217-218 and at that point I don't even think about starting it because it will just continue to try and crank over. I'm sure we're not the only one this happens to. I will agree with a previous post about how the fuel is being burned off before it gets to the injectors or spark plugs. That makes total sense, but I'm not a fuel connoisseur.

Probably not what you want to hear,

Jake

Sorry your bike won't start but many people have or have had the FZ6 S-1 and S-2 and the FZ6 start fine in hot weather.

Also you're saying that a fuel management device or the map couldn't have anything to do with this starting problem? What is this idea based on?

 

[Motogiro]

Also has the TPS setting on the Power commander been zeroed out? If it isn't that could be the problem with the PClll. If the PClll thinks the throttle is somewhere else than at zero it's going to change the fuel setting...

Check it out:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eosy7duBhx4"]Dynojet Power Commander III & V - Setting the Throttle Position Sensor - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Yeah, that's not what I like to hear. I won't just accept that it happens though. It's pretty unacceptable to me. I'll sell the power commander before I just let it happen.

To Motogiro, I checked the tps for the power commander and it was all set correctly.

 

[FinalImpact]

The bikes and and S/W I've played with that is the first thing you do. Set the TPS (bike OFF) so as to establish idle and WOT 0 - 100. Does this have to be running for this to happen?

Back to the issue.
If as a test you routed the sync lines outside the frame rails and left them hanging, ride until hot, let it sit, and when it fails to start, pull out a small sealed can of gas and a syringe; inject a few CC's of gas into each line, plug the hoses and hit the starter. If it instantly fires NOW YOU KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN!

I suppose a can of starting fluid and straw tip would do, but I would NOT do that to my engine. I'd rather use gas.

- If it fires, there are ways to resolve this. Its not show stopper or something you have to live with.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If as a test you routed the sync lines outside the frame rails and left them hanging, ride until hot, let it sit, and when it fails to start, pull out a small sealed can of gas and a syringe; inject a few CC's of gas into each line, plug the hoses and hit the starter. If it instantly fires NOW YOU KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN!

I suppose a can of starting fluid and straw tip would do, but I would NOT do that to my engine. I'd rather use gas.

- If it fires, there are ways to resolve this.

That's a very good idea.

With that in mind, if it doesn't help, treat the engine as if it was FLOODED..

Crank the engine with the throttle WIDE OPEN (not partial, not up and down, WOT). Crank 5-7 seconds, stop (let the started cool down), repeat (hold the throttle wide open). If it starts up, you know its running too rich..

 

[JakeKo]

Sorry your bike won't start but many people have or have had the FZ6 S-1 and S-2 and the FZ6 start fine in hot weather.

Also you're saying that a fuel management device or the map couldn't have anything to do with this starting problem? What is this idea based on?

I'm saying that the programmer has nothing to do with it because I have the exact same problem that he is having and I don't have a programmer on my bike. Unless it's a 100:1 coincidence - which I don't believe in - we both have the same problem and I'm just rambling. Honestly, I'm sure it's much more simple than you think. Yes, he put the programmer on his, but it is also the hottest month of summer. I don't think it's a coincidence, but I may be wrong.

Thanks,

Jake

 

[JakeKo]

Yeah, that's not what I like to hear. I won't just accept that it happens though. It's pretty unacceptable to me. I'll sell the power commander before I just let it happen.

To Motogiro, I checked the tps for the power commander and it was all set correctly.

I'm telling you, it's not the programmer. You don't have to accept it. You could take the bike back or sell it. It's science, you can just beat science.

Put the bike back to stock settings and take it for a ride. Get it up to "hot" temps and then stop in a parking lot. Wait a couple minutes with the starter switch to cut-off and the key out. Put the key back in and select the start on the starter switch. Try and start it. If it doesn't start, then you obviously know it's not the programmer and these bikes are made to just not start in super hot temps with hot temps outside. It's not that big of a deal. It's normal, like an overheated car. You're not going to try and start the car after it's overheated. You'll blow a gasket or crack a head or block. It's a safety feature I'd say.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I'm telling you, it's not the programmer. You don't have to accept it. You could take the bike back or sell it. It's science, you can just beat science.

Put the bike back to stock settings and take it for a ride. Get it up to "hot" temps and then stop in a parking lot. Wait a couple minutes with the starter switch to cut-off and the key out. Put the key back in and select the start on the starter switch. Try and start it. If it doesn't start, then you obviously know it's not the programmer and these bikes are made to just not start in super hot temps with hot temps outside. It's not that big of a deal. It's normal, like an overheated car. You're not going to try and start the car after it's overheated. You'll blow a gasket or crack a head or block. It's a safety feature I'd say.

At this point, I'm almost certain it is the programmer. Or at the very least it's programmer related. I put the bike back to stock (as mentioned previously in the thread) and I rode until it was HOT. Killed it, restarted 5 times under the same conditions. Also let the bike idle to 4 bars (when the fan comes on) in my garage and turned it off. Key out of the ignition, back in, started multiple times in a row with not even a hesitation.

 

[Motogiro]

At this point, I'm almost certain it is the programmer. Or at the very least it's programmer related. I put the bike back to stock (as mentioned previously in the thread) and I rode until it was HOT. Killed it, restarted 5 times under the same conditions. Also let the bike idle to 4 bars (when the fan comes on) in my garage and turned it off. Key out of the ignition, back in, started multiple times in a row with not even a hesitation.

Thank you!
Now that's science! lol!

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[Motogiro]

I'm telling you, it's not the programmer. You don't have to accept it. You could take the bike back or sell it. It's science, you can just beat science.

Put the bike back to stock settings and take it for a ride. Get it up to "hot" temps and then stop in a parking lot. Wait a couple minutes with the starter switch to cut-off and the key out. Put the key back in and select the start on the starter switch. Try and start it. If it doesn't start, then you obviously know it's not the programmer and these bikes are made to just not start in super hot temps with hot temps outside. It's not that big of a deal. It's normal, like an overheated car. You're not going to try and start the car after it's overheated. You'll blow a gasket or crack a head or block. It's a safety feature I'd say.

Sometimes there are other issues that will create hard starting. The ECU/ECM (computer) on the bike learns certain sensor reading over time. This is called volatile memory and can be reset to learn the sensors all over again with it's different components and environment. If your computer has learned a set of instruction at a specific environment it may not run good in the new environment. Sometimes you can disconnect the negative lead on the battery for 15 to 20 minutes and that clears the volatile memory. Hook it back up and see if it starts to behave in the hot weather....

As mentioned before, there are a lot of FZ6 bikes that start just fine in the desert where we ride. If your bike is actually overheating you should repair it.

Also maintenance like valve lash are important and become more evident in harsher situations so make sure you at least do your first and generally most important valve lash adjustment.

Good luck!

 

[FinalImpact]

I mentioned this before... But if the PC induces a condition which makes the engine hot and causes the hot start issue, well its possible its self induced by the map values. I'd like to say the zero map reads the OEM map. Yes?

Anyway - determine why it doesn't satrt and there in lies the solution....

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I can tell you right now that it has nothing to do with your PC3 or your loaded maps. I have the same issue with my FZ6 and I have just learned to accept it. This is what mine does; If I've been riding for about 10-15 minutes and my temp gets up towards 212-214 (Vegas, NV desert) and I want to stop for a drink at a gas station or I need to fill up and it only takes about 2 minutes to do, the bike won't start. I either have to push start it or I just wait a good 10 minutes for the bike to cool down before I try to start it. It only happens when I get it up to about 214 degrees and then it sits for a couple minutes and gets up to about 217-218 and at that point I don't even think about starting it because it will just continue to try and crank over. I'm sure we're not the only one this happens to. I will agree with a previous post about how the fuel is being burned off before it gets to the injectors or spark plugs. That makes total sense, but I'm not a fuel connoisseur.

Probably not what you want to hear,

Jake

Posting that its nomal for a stock bike to not start at when its water temp is at 217F is flat wrong.

There's an intake temp sensor which tells the ECU of the outside conditions (heat) and the ECU will adjust for it. The fan will kick on if the temps get too high as well to keep things in check..

Where's "TCwalker", he could verify..