Hot Starting Issues with Power Commander

[ChanceCoats123]

First, I just want to apologize if this is in the wrong section (I could think of at least three that it fits in).

So today I got the used PC3 that I bought and installed it right away. I first plugged it in to my computer (and stupid me), I didn't realize that it wasn't detected. So when I installed it, I was just running the zero map.

I took it for a ride, and had no issues what so ever.

I came back, plugged it into a different port on my laptop (which recognized it). So I was able to flash the Two Brothers Exhaust map from Dyno Jet (410-004).

Side note: When putting a new map on the bike, should I be sending the map or the table, or both? (I sent both).

Now, I took the bike for another ride and noticed smoother throttle response and what seemed like more power. :thumbup:

But I got home and turned the bike off. I decided I wanted to move it, so I went to restart the bike. It just cranked away and never fired back up. I know it's not a battery issue because after I had this problem, I flashed it back to the zero map and turned it off and on a few times without issue.

I did a little research prior to posting this, and found an older thread where the user had the same issue. He fixed it by adding 10 points of fuel to a few different spots on the map. I tried this same thing (I added 10 points to the 0% throttle by 500 rpm, 750rpm, and 1000rpm boxes (because that's basically where the bike is when cranking). It seemed to help, but I still have the issue occasionally.


tl:dr I installed a power commander 3 usb today and now the bike erratically starts only when hot.

 

[Motogiro]

Have you disconnected the battery for a 15-20 minutes? This might solve your issue as volatile memory may not play well with the new PC map. You have the 9 volt power plug plugged into the PClll when changing maps?

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I did not! I actually tried to keep the battery connected when I installed the ground wire so that I didn't have to reset the clock. I'll go disconnect that and let it sit!

:spank:

 

[Motogiro]

Also reread my previous post as I've edited it.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I just pulled the ground and I'm letting it sit while I watch Uncle Buck on AMC.

I did have the 9 volt supply plugged in. I only flashed the map once while the bike was on, so I had the 9 volt battery plugged in the whole time for when the bike wasn't on.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Here is a youtube video of the issue. I just reconnected the ground and tried it out.

The audio is kind of bad, but you can hear it crank just fine.

http://youtu.be/bubpG6bJMkQ?list=UU5BuJeHYApxrqTKqow0enzQ

As another side note, my idle got really jumpy after installing the PC3. Is that a common occurence?

 

[Motogiro]

Have you tried disconnecting the PClll? It may be a bad unit. Also make sure you PClll is well grounded. Maybe runn it direct to the negative battery lead if you haven't done so

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I have not tried disconnecting it. I have it grounded to the terminal directly too. I put it back on the zero map and rode it to get gas, it seemed a little choppy (more so than usual). I'm thinking it might have more to do with the unit than the map. Maybe I have a loose connection or something. I'll look more into it tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas!

Edit: I figured I should throw in some of my other observations. When starting the bike, I've been smelling a lot of gas. I don't usually get this smell so I'm thinking maybe the bike might be running too rich. Also, since my idle got really choppy, I thought maybe I was having ignition problems. I brought out some cold water and flicked it onto each header pipe. They were all hot. So all cylinders are firing just fine. Tomorrow I'll disconnect the PC and reconnect the stock harness to see if it makes a difference. If not, I'm going to check the wires leading to each spark plug and make sure I'm getting good solid connections.

Edit 2: I did a little reading in the mean time. I never manually set the throttle position for the PC. When I have the bike off, the PC reads -20% throttle position. So perhaps it's not starting because it's not getting fuel (which is contrary to my smelling gas). I'll look into it tomorrow as well.

 

[ChevyFazer]

Most hot hard starts are timing advance problems or fueling problems. Most of the time after running it hard and hot its a issue of the fuel getting vaporized before it has a chance to combust so all that fuel that is pumping into the engine while you're trying to start is getting blown straight out the exhaust. That's where timing advance comes in, most engines will advance the timing a little bit under startup so that the spark fires a little bit before TDC and in hot start scenarios it helps the fuel to ignite before it vaporizes. I've never messed with a pcIII but maybe that bit of info will help.

 

[ChevyFazer]

I just read your second edit that's probably the problem right there the trottle position sensor, the tps adjust the timing as well. try to hold your throttle just barely cracked open and I bet it will start easy. your engine will still get fuel with it reading - 20 the tps more or less just tells the engine and computer where your throttle is at so it can make adjustments accordingly.

 

[Motogiro]

If the bike started okay before the PClll was installed I would not think it was the TPS. Just unplug the PClll and plug the factory plugs back together. Again, undo the negative battery lead when you switch back. If the bike starts up you may have a bad PClll. If this is a used PClll it may have been damaged.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

If the bike started okay before the PClll was installed I would not think it was the TPS. Just unplug the PClll and plug the factory plugs back together. Again, undo the negative battery lead when you switch back. If the bike starts up you may have a bad PClll. If this is a used PClll it may have been damaged.

My thought was that it was how the PC viewed the information from the TPS and not the actual TPS. I checked this morning, and the PC only reads -20% when the ignition switch is off. When turned on, but without the bike started, the TPS reads correctly. So that's not the issue.

I started it up and ran it until it got to 3 bars then shut it off and restarted with the throttle cracked. It seemed to help a little. I shut it off again and it started right back up. I think I'm going to give it a day of riding (I think I'll be heading out with my buddy later today) before I make any major changes.

If the issue persists, then I'm going straight to the connectors.

 

[FinalImpact]

^^ Agreed.
Because all connection are critical, I'd disconnect the battery and inspect every pin and socket. Specifically those into and out of the TPS.

Look for conductors in the female socket that are not in the same alignment height and orientation wise. I have a Bazzaz controller and the quality of the connectors is on par with the OEM connectors.

Just check them. It only takes one. Do keep in mind the controller and ECM are static sensitive so be wise about touching any of the pins.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Opened all the connectors, blew them out with canned air. Everything looked correct and aligned properly. I put them back together and gave each one a snug push. The ground terminal was very snug and corrosion free so I left it alone. Tried a cold start and it fired right up (like it used to before the PC3). I'll see how the hot starts are after a ride later today.

 

[ChevyFazer]

If the bike started okay before the PClll was installed I would not think it was the TPS. Just unplug the PClll and plug the factory plugs back together. Again, undo the negative battery lead when you switch back. If the bike starts up you may have a bad PClll. If this is a used PClll it may have been damaged.

Out of curiosity is there a way to adjust the TPS on the fz6? I can't remember to be honest but I know there is on my fz1 and being out just the slightest little bit can cause issues

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Out of curiosity is there a way to adjust the TPS on the fz6? I can't remember to be honest but I know there is on my fz1 and being out just the slightest little bit can cause issues

You can loosen the two bolts (torx I think) and adjust by voltage or just watch the #s on the dash, 100 generally, being the highest #. Doesn't take much rotation and you just have to slightly loosen those bolts..

It can be adjusted higher without incident, it'd be adding slightly more fuel (at the same throttle setting as before) as the TPS, adjusted higher, THINKS the throttle is open farther all the time.

Many years ago, I had some issues with my FJR. (the issue was later found to be a corroded connector). However, while at the dealership, (it was still under warranty), Mama Yamaha Corp in Ca, had the tech's turn up the TPS above 100 for some higher #'s to richen it up.

**The bike (most if not al 2004 FJR models) was set from the factory VERY LEAN (and surged most of the time @ 3,000 RPM's)..

Part #64 is your 04 FZ1 TPS;
Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2004 FZ1 - FZ-1S CARBURETOR Diagram


Part #10 for an 07 FZ6;
Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W INTAKE 2 Diagram

 

[Mta1981]

Well its definitely not a bad unit, I pulled it out of my bike and it ran no problem before I sold it, never any hot start issues. If you're smelling fuel, then the PC is dumping a ton of fuel. I don't know much of messing with fuel trim cuz you can seriously F things up without all the knowledge necessary and no dyno. I never tried to add/remove points of fuel myself. I've ran a few different maps that you get from PC's site, all with different results with fuel economy, performance, etc. the best I had was the scorpion map. It really made rolling out easier and a little more juice throughout.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Well its definitely not a bad unit, I pulled it out of my bike and it ran no problem before I sold it, never any hot start issues. If you're smelling fuel, then the PC is dumping a ton of fuel. I don't know much of messing with fuel trim cuz you can seriously F things up without all the knowledge necessary and no dyno. I never tried to add/remove points of fuel myself. I've ran a few different maps that you get from PC's site, all with different results with fuel economy, performance, etc. the best I had was the scorpion map. It really made rolling out easier and a little more juice throughout.

I'll try that scorpion map and see if it rides a little better. I had a no-start today which was an inconvenience. Luckily it happened in a parking lot and not the open road. But it was annoying none the less.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Well I got stuck at the gas station today. Not a big deal, but an inconvenience. Sat for maybe 10 minutes and then it started up again. Rode home without issue. I'm at a loss though. I've tried different maps and secured the connectors. I'm probably going to uninstall it tonight so I can at least ride my last few days before heading to school and not worry about getting stuck somewhere.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Oh man, triple post here I come. But I think I found something and it seems to important not to throw into this thread...

Taken directly from this FAQ on the PowerCommander Website is this:

Most Power Commanders are powered by the injectors on the bike. When you turn the key on, the fuel pump gets power and primes the fuel circuit. When this happens, the injectors get power, and the Power Commander also gets power and lights up. After a few moments, the fuel pump has pressurized the system, and usually shuts off. If the fuel pump shuts off, the injectors’ loose power, and the Power Commander shuts off. If you attempt to start the bike when the Power Commander is off, the bike will NOT start, until the fuel pump comes back on. The fuel pump may come on instantly, after a few engine revolutions, or on some bikes seemingly not at all. If the fuel pump does not come on, the bike will not start. We recommend starting the bike once you turn the key on. Do not wait for the fuel pump to shut off, or a check engine light to go out.

Source : Tuning Issues > Hard Start

I never actually tried this because I always thought it was bad to start before the fuel rail was pressurized. Usually, when I hear the pump turn on, I stop cranking. This very well might have been the solution. But of course I uninstalled the PC3 tonight. I might just throw it back in and try it out tomorrow!

Any thoughts on this?