Help! Need input on residental electrical tools

[FinalImpact]

All,
A quick question. I need to diagnose an open run on the hot side of a residential 120VAC junction. Because the "hot" is open, I'm not sure that these cheaper circuit breaker trace tools will trace back to anything. So my question is this. Do these tools ping the Neutral line too or just the Hot?

I would think they should do both just in case someone wired it wrong it would still lead back to the pair in the panel. But I've never used one so I don't know and I need to get moving on this without tearing the whole house apart!

For example; there are products like this: CB10-KIT - Electrical Troubleshooting Kit

I have the voltage detector wand (probe), a good meter, and the fault detector (GFI tester, opens, shorts, etc) so I don't need the whole kit but none of these sellers indicate if the tool works on the neutral.

Kit Contains:
- CB10 Circuit Breaker Finder << APPLICATION IS WORKING CIRCUITS ONLY
• Quickly locate Circuit Breakers with audible and visual alert
• Variable Sensitivity adjustment to pinpoint correct circuit breaker
• LED indicators determine if outlet is correctly wired and
identify six fault conditions
• Push button GFCI test
• UL listed and CE approved
• Includes 9V battery
- CT20 Continuity Tester/Wire Tracer << APPLICATION IS UNKNOWN
• Continuity testing via bright flashing LED and loud pulsating beeper
• Remote probe with flashing (red/green) LED allows a single user to
trace up to three cables
• Clips on and hangs from the cable(s) under test without support
• CE approved
• Includes 9V battery
- DV20 AC Voltage Detector/Flashlight
• Non-Contact Detection of AC Voltage from 100VAC to 600VAC
• Rugged, double molded housing
• Built-in bright LED flashlight with ON/OFF button
• UL listed CAT lll – 600V, CE approved
• Includes two AAA batteries

 

[FinalImpact]

^^ Also - can these be used to go shorter distances like from room to room and then to the panel? That would be good to know too! Tks

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Not sure if this is what you need to know (and may already).

I have a simple 110/220 probe that lights.

When checking an outlet (especially newly installed, I'll put one probe in the positve(of course).

I'll use the other end of the probe in both the neutral and negative and check for the "Light".

As long as it lights on both the neutral and negative(independant of each other), its good and grounded properly.

The bare ground wire would have to be grounded..

 

[motel6]

Are you trying to find the location of an open circuit on a hot line utilizing breaker trace tools?

I don't really understand what you're asking. Could you re-word ?

 

[FinalImpact]

Not sure if this is what you need to know (and may already).

I have a simple 110/220 probe that lights.

When checking an outlet (especially newly installed, I'll put one probe in the positve(of course).

I'll use the other end of the probe in both the neutral and negative and check for the "Light".

As long as it lights on both the neutral and negative(independant of each other), its good and grounded properly.

The bare ground wire would have to be grounded..

Yes, i have a non-conductive test probe. Wave the wand and the tip lights. Great for finding "HOT" and Very helpful in some places. A nice little Fluke product.

Are you trying to find the location of an open circuit on a hot line utilizing breaker trace tools?

I don't really understand what you're asking. Could you re-word ?

Reword:
Yes, I have an open HOT on an unknown branch. I used an extension cord on a working outlet to asses that all grounds and neutrals are intact (ohm them) on the dead circuit which includes, fixed overhead lamps/switches (X3), and 4 double outlets. Actually 5 outlets; one is feed from a dead GFI.

2 of the outlets are single wire drop in (H&N in, nothing out).
2 of the outlets are ganged. They have dead HOT in and dead Hots out.
1 pull string lamp ganged. A junction w 3X Dead in dead out pairs.
All dead holes tested with an AC probe and an actual hand held meter using a known good Neutral but there is no energy present. It's Dead Jim!

I covered everything in the room and two adjacent rooms looking for a HOT feeder. The panel markings are useless and mean nothing. Do to the localized nature of the outage (not going to use the word ASSUME -->"ASS-U-ME"), but suspect the all items are on the same circuit. However that may not be true as there is another bathroom that I think they may have tapped from.

So, i need a tool that can trace both H & N wires from outlet to outlet with power off and the same with power present.

And helpful would be to trace the Neutral from the Dead area back to the Breaker Panel just to know what breaker its own. I understand I'd likely have to pull the "paired" Neutral from the bus bar to isolate and I'm OK with that.

Does that make since?


I have not opened and examined junction boxes in the attic or all of the crawl space. I got distracted when I found the live 240 laying by my side with exposed conductors!
If I had to guess, the previous home owner(s) did the addition and sections of it may not meet code and or be done in some unorthodox method that may not be apparent.

 

[Motogiro]

I've never used one but I think the one you want injects a modulated RF signal in the line and you can track it with a receiver. I would not think it's cheap.

Extech RT30 Wireless Circuit Identifier - TestEquity

Also.. Electrical Safety: The Fatal Current

Good luck!

 

[motel6]

Yes, i have a non-conductive test probe. Wave the wand and the tip lights. Great for finding "HOT" and Very helpful in some places. A nice little Fluke product.





Reword:
Yes, I have an open HOT on an unknown branch. I used an extension cord on a working outlet to asses that all grounds and neutrals are intact (ohm them) on the dead circuit which includes, fixed overhead lamps/switches (X3), and 4 double outlets. Actually 5 outlets; one is feed from a dead GFI.

2 of the outlets are single wire drop in (H&N in, nothing out).
2 of the outlets are ganged. They have dead HOT in and dead Hots out.
1 pull string lamp ganged. A junction w 3X Dead in dead out pairs.
All dead holes tested with an AC probe and an actual hand held meter using a known good Neutral but there is no energy present. It's Dead Jim!

I covered everything in the room and two adjacent rooms looking for a HOT feeder. The panel markings are useless and mean nothing. Do to the localized nature of the outage (not going to use the word ASSUME -->"ASS-U-ME"), but suspect the all items are on the same circuit. However that may not be true as there is another bathroom that I think they may have tapped from.

So, i need a tool that can trace both H & N wires from outlet to outlet with power off and the same with power present.

And helpful would be to trace the Neutral from the Dead area back to the Breaker Panel just to know what breaker its own. I understand I'd likely have to pull the "paired" Neutral from the bus bar to isolate and I'm OK with that.

Does that make since?


I have not opened and examined junction boxes in the attic or all of the crawl space. I got distracted when I found the live 240 laying by my side with exposed conductors!
If I had to guess, the previous home owner(s) did the addition and sections of it may not meet code and or be done in some unorthodox method that may not be apparent.

Could you use process of elimination and an ohm-meter to narrow down the neutral circuit? Just run a continuity test

 

[Motogiro]

Could you use process of elimination and an ohm-meter to narrow down the neutral circuit? Just run a continuity test

I think he has established the other wire have continuity after referencing them on know good circuit using and extension cord. It looks like he has an open hot and he is looking to find where it is open...

Yes, I have an open HOT on an unknown branch. I used an extension cord on a working outlet to asses that all grounds and neutrals are intact (ohm them) on the dead circuit which includes, fixed overhead lamps/switches (X3), and 4 double outlets. Actually 5 outlets; one is feed from a dead GFI.

FI, are you sure the circuits are not fed off the GFI?

 

[motel6]

I think he has established the other wire have continuity after referencing them on know good circuit using and extension cord. It looks like he has an open hot and he is looking to find where it is open...

Yes, I have an open HOT on an unknown branch. I used an extension cord on a working outlet to asses that all grounds and neutrals are intact (ohm them) on the dead circuit which includes, fixed overhead lamps/switches (X3), and 4 double outlets. Actually 5 outlets; one is feed from a dead GFI.

FI, are you sure the circuits are not fed off the GFI?

Derp... My bad. I quickly read the post. Thanks for your kindly pointing it out lol.



Find Where the Hot or Neutral Is Open

Maybe?

I don't work on house stuff - same principles but totally different animal. I am on the high voltage side of things... And I don't do the testing

Other ideas - an electrostatic wand? Those are poss. to find open hots

 

[Motogiro]

Derp... My bad. I quickly read the post. Thanks for your kindly pointing it out lol.



Find Where the Hot or Neutral Is Open

Maybe?

I don't work on house stuff - same principles but totally different animal. I am on the high voltage side of things... And I don't do the testing

Other ideas - an electrostatic wand? Those are poss. to find open hots

I also go too fast all the time!

What HV stuff do you work on?

Do you have to bond on? Lol Bonding with Power Lines | National Geographic Channel

 

[FinalImpact]

I think he has established the other wire have continuity after referencing them on know good circuit using and extension cord. It looks like he has an open hot and he is looking to find where it is open...

Yes, I have an open HOT on an unknown branch. I used an extension cord on a working outlet to asses that all grounds and neutrals are intact (ohm them) on the dead circuit which includes, fixed overhead lamps/switches (X3), and 4 double outlets. Actually 5 outlets; one is feed from a dead GFI.

FI, are you sure the circuits are not fed off the GFI?

Yes sir and thank for the "Current Kills" read....

GFI - GFI is a drop fed by a single dead drop. The only exit is a single fed out to the protected socket downstream from the GFI. So, nothing crazy going on there.

 

[motel6]

I also go too fast all the time!

What HV stuff do you work on?

Do you have to bond on? Lol Bonding with Power Lines | National Geographic Channel

Primarily substations. Specifically Protection & Control design. I just do the design - the only field visits include lots of photos but no actual HV work. I work at a consulting firm so we get a lot of jobs from utilities designing their stuff.

That video was awesome!!!! Thanks for sharing. I'm too much of a p***y to handle working on that stuff directly. They probably make more money than I do! lol

 

[FinalImpact]

Derp... My bad. I quickly read the post. Thanks for your kindly pointing it out lol.



Find Where the Hot or Neutral Is Open

Maybe?

I don't work on house stuff - same principles but totally different animal. I am on the high voltage side of things... And I don't do the testing

Other ideas - an electrostatic wand? Those are poss. to find open hots

Too FUNNY I read that today and sent it too the home owner with an explanation that - That is the process I used! If anyone read the "open Hot" section, its pretty good!

I can fake a Neutral and cheat the ground, but getting Hot HOT is without starting a fire is difficult in this situation!

Thanks for tossing ideas out there! +5 to all!

 

[FinalImpact]

I also go too fast all the time!

What HV stuff do you work on?

Do you have to bond on? Lol Bonding with Power Lines | National Geographic Channel

^^ Gotta wonder how long is takes to neutralize CHOP CHOP from a MEGA CHARGE they gathered there! Hats off to the Pilots of those airships!

I watched them string HT cable through the valley with Chop Chop (insert Humpy term here), Again, Wild Stats on the Pilots! Some of the best!

 

[Motogiro]

^^ Gotta wonder how long is takes to neutralize CHOP CHOP from a MEGA CHARGE they gathered there! Hats off to the Pilots of those airships!

I watched them string HT cable through the valley with Chop Chop (insert Humpy term here), Again, Wild Stats on the Pilots! Some of the best!

Probably gets pretty neutral by the time it lands just through molecules in the the air. It fact there's probably much more differential on the rotor blade at the rate they're spinning.

 

[FinalImpact]

Probably gets pretty neutral by the time it lands just through molecules in the the air. It fact there's probably much more differential on the rotor blade at the rate they're spinning.

You've been around planes tho, they throw on the ground strap to discharge them before fueling so they dont go boom! I guess it depends how dry the air is! IDK! Never thought about it too much! I dont think id volunteer to be the first to lick the chopper!

 

[FinalImpact]

Probably gets pretty neutral by the time it lands just through molecules in the the air. It fact there's probably much more differential on the rotor blade at the rate they're spinning.

This must be the neutral your talking about! :spank::spank: :thumbup:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW5p70b9RjE[/ame]

 

[Motogiro]

This must be the neutral your talking about! :spank::spank: :thumbup:
Helicopter static discharge HAHAHA! - YouTube

You can see the corona off the rotor/s more at night and yes if you're in the path you will get tagged. Just off the blades! That's what he's getting tagged from. Once the skids touch it's discharged. Like getting in you car on a really dry cold day where there is not much moisture molecules to balance charges. Snap!

Also here: This is just a fixed wing example. Imagine heli-those rotors! NEWTON, Ask a Scientist at Argonne National Labs

 

[sniff6]

 

[Motogiro]

LMAO! :rof: