Had my first accident, hope to gain insights into cornering

[MG-242]

i can also recommend a day of motocross to get some experience with handling sliding around, though the "if in doubt, gas it out" doesn't always apply on the road

Absolutely!!! Riding in the dirt is a great way to experience sliding in a non-threatening environment.

To the OP related to leaning with and counterweighting - watch an AMA superbike race and compare Larry Pegram to almost any other racer. Larry is fast and he used to also do well racing flat track, but his unorthodox style of sitting on top of the bike really drives home the difference and can be seen in the results. His equipment (the Yamaha) was pretty much the same as the two leaders this season, but his results not so much.

 

[Karate.Snoopy]

Absolutely!!! Riding in the dirt is a great way to experience sliding in a non-threatening environment.

To the OP related to leaning with and counterweighting - watch an AMA superbike race and compare Larry Pegram to almost any other racer. Larry is fast and he used to also do well racing flat track, but his unorthodox style of sitting on top of the bike really drives home the difference and can be seen in the results. His equipment (the Yamaha) was pretty much the same as the two leaders this season, but his results not so much.

You will also notice Mr Pegram in several pictures in the book "Total Control by Lee Parks", unfortunately for him it under "What not to do" captions.

Oh and you must read Total Control :rockon:

 

[twisty mcfisty]

First, glad to hear that you escaped the incident with little/minimal damage. I'm always careful around painted lines for this very reason. I was riding up Hwy 52 here in North Georgia a few weeks ago and watched a guy suffer the same fate as you. Same story, early in the day and dew on the road, he rode in a little hot and hit the line while coming out of the corner. He was shaken up but thankful to be here. It was a right-handed corner and nobody was coming.

I also had an incident where I was turning left and slid on gravel that was in the 'bermuda triangle' of the intersection. You know there are several spots in larger intersections where the gravel and trash gets pushed from the lane of travel. I was going to turn left and rode in a little deep in the intersection waiting on a car to get passed so I could turn. Ended up riding through the bermuda triangle trash island and slid my front tire...down I went. It was all my fault of course and I'm glad to see you are asking questions about your incident. You want to learn from these things so you don't repeat them with a worse outcome.

Kudos to you friend.

Also, Parks says to use your body as a lever....but you need some speed first!
X2 for Total Control

 

[Water Bear]

First, glad to hear that you escaped the incident with little/minimal damage. I'm always careful around painted lines for this very reason. I was riding up Hwy 52 here in North Georgia a few weeks ago and watched a guy suffer the same fate as you. Same story, early in the day and dew on the road, he rode in a little hot and hit the line while coming out of the corner. He was shaken up but thankful to be here. It was a right-handed corner and nobody was coming.

I also had an incident where I was turning left and slid on gravel that was in the 'bermuda triangle' of the intersection. You know there are several spots in larger intersections where the gravel and trash gets pushed from the lane of travel. I was going to turn left and rode in a little deep in the intersection waiting on a car to get passed so I could turn. Ended up riding through the bermuda triangle trash island and slid my front tire...down I went. It was all my fault of course and I'm glad to see you are asking questions about your incident. You want to learn from these things so you don't repeat them with a worse outcome.

Kudos to you friend.

Also, Parks says to use your body as a lever....but you need some speed first!
X2 for Total Control

Thanks man! That stretch of 52 between Chatsworth and Ellijay is one of my favorite local rides. It's no Tail of the Dragon, but it's great fun for my skill level. I'm curious to hear about how you lost the front.

Thanks again to all the posters, I'm reading things about lean that I was wondering. I know that at speed you can affect the bike's lean by hanging off. When I first started experimenting with it, I remember that hanging off the bike allowed me to push the bike upright a little (but noticeably) while still maintaining the same line through a turn.

Thanks for the response about the leaking fluids Erci! The bike seems to be holding its liquor since the accident, with no major damage to the tank. Coincidentally, I finally ordered some frame sliders.

 

[MG-242]

When I first started experimenting with it, I remember that hanging off the bike allowed me to push the bike upright a little (but noticeably) while still maintaining the same line through a turn.

Yep, more ground clearance and that's a good thing!!

 

[Misti]

I'd say you hanged your body when you shouldn't have and added additional weight to pull the bike to the ground, I'd say I "hang" only at higher speeds 30 mph doesn't require leaning too much anyways people tend to forget and over lean even at lower speeds

I think there needs to be a little clarification of what "hanging off" does to the bike. "hanging" your body won't pull the bike to the ground. How does your body position influence how much lean angle you have?

Misti

 

[Ssky0078]

Has anybody mentioned it yet, but go take an Advanced Rider Course. Lean, countersteer trail brake, obstacle avoidance, are all taught there. Second best $200 I spent after the BRC.

 

[Hellgate]

Without causing a ruckus, hanging off a bike at street speeds isn't needed. In fact it's a quick way to get a ticket. Yes in the perfect, scientific world hanging off, COW, FIFOM (face in front of mirror), etc. makes a difference. If you are riding that fast, you need to go to the track, period.

On the street I am bolt up right. Why? (Yes I've taken the MSF classes, done dozens of track days, and was an Expert class roadracer, placed as high as 5th). Because riding bolt up right allowed me to actually lean the bike a street speeds.

If back in 1982, I could drag peg on a 1973 Yamaha TX500, with Montgomery Ward Mohawk tires (I kid you not), in 2013 on a 2011 Aprilia Tuono APRC with Pirelli Super Corsas, there is no reason for me to hang off. Honestly.

The key is being 1) smooth, 2) consistent in a corner, 3) being a good trail braking, 4) looking through the corner, 5) smooth roll on.

IF you can do those things you are good to go. There is no need to hang off, COW, CROW, etc. Those things will only get you a big fat reckless driving ticket from the po-po.

 

[Hellgate]

Has anybody mentioned it yet, but go take an Advanced Rider Course. Lean, countersteer trail brake, obstacle avoidance, are all taught there. Second best $200 I spent after the BRC.

If you are a newer rider, yes. If you are an experienced rider, no. I found it to be a waste of time.

After 30 years of riding, I didn't get anything out of it, but a ticket dismissed. In fact I was reprimanded for front braking with two fingers instead of four.

When I explained to the HD instructor that my FZ1 had rockin' brakes (R1 radials) he didn't get it. At that point it became, "Just get this day over with..." Oh, and he told me many times over, " Don't gas it so hard!" Yawn...

 

[Erci]

In fact I was reprimanded for front braking with two fingers instead of four.

When I explained to the HD instructor that my FZ1 had rockin' brakes (R1 radials) he didn't get it.

Couldn't agree with you more on this one. I always use 2, but I have to go against my habit (and logic) when I coach

MSF reasoning is that you want 4 fingers for maximum braking and quickest possible stop. I practice my quick stop with 2 and I'm certain there is no way I can stop any quicker with 4. Just no need for it on my bike. And on supersports?.. it takes no effort at all to apply maximum braking (lighter bike + stronger brakes)

I will say this.. it's a Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Using 4 fingers on brake lever is a good, safe way to go. 4-fingers technique makes a lot of sense to me in BRC. In that class, we are teaching riders to completely separate brake from throttle. Either 4 around the grip or 4 on the lever.

The thing about motorcycling.. there are 47 ways to skin a cat. So many different techniques to accomplish task at hand and whatever approach you use, if you can do it smoothly and safely, who's to say it's wrong?

Imagine Kevin Schwantz showed up at the track today (and no one knew who he was).. they'd probably tell him his body position needed work!

 

[greg]

i don't think we have anything specifically in our UK motorcycle test about how many fingers to use. I do think there's more chance of grabbing a handful of brakes and locking up the front in an emergency though if you use all 4 fingers.

 

[Erci]

i don't think we have anything specifically in our UK motorcycle test about how many fingers to use. I do think there's more chance of grabbing a handful of brakes and locking up the front in an emergency though if you use all 4 fingers.

If our students use 2 fingers (or any combination.. we often see index finger on the grip and the rest on the lever!!) on the actual test, they don't get penalized for it. The test is about stopping in shortest distance for your speed. No points for "ugly".

However, during practice, we correct the technique on every pass, if needed. There may very well be some validity to a likelier lock-up when using 4-fingers.. particularly on supersports.

 

[Ssky0078]

If our students use 2 fingers (or any combination.. we often see index finger on the grip and the rest on the lever!!) on the actual test, they don't get penalized for it. The test is about stopping in shortest distance for your speed. No points for "ugly".

However, during practice, we correct the technique on every pass, if needed. There may very well be some validity to a likelier lock-up when using 4-fingers.. particularly on supersports.

That's funny I do most of my city riding with my index finger on the brake lever. I also have shorty's and SS lines.

 

[Erci]

That's funny I do most of my city riding with my index finger on the brake lever. I also have shorty's and SS lines.

And there's nothing wrong with that approach. Just index or index + middle is perfect. However, Index on grip and others on the lever.. not a good idea. Imagine brake lever bottoming out on your index finger preventing you from applying maximum braking?

 

[motojoe122]

And there's nothing wrong with that approach. Just index or index + middle is perfect. However, Index on grip and others on the lever.. not a good idea. Imagine brake lever bottoming out on your index finger preventing you from applying maximum braking?

Thought came to mind on this subject...
Erci, while coaching, do you ask about any prior riding experience? I would almost bet that most of the people that use the index and/or 2 finger lever placement have dirtbike experience.

 

[kenh]

Without causing a ruckus, hanging off a bike at street speeds isn't needed. In fact it's a quick way to get a ticket. Yes in the perfect, scientific world hanging off, COW, FIFOM (face in front of mirror), etc. makes a difference. If you are riding that fast, you need to go to the track, period.

On the street I am bolt up right. Why? (Yes I've taken the MSF classes, done dozens of track days, and was an Expert class roadracer, placed as high as 5th). Because riding bolt up right allowed me to actually lean the bike a street speeds.

If back in 1982, I could drag peg on a 1973 Yamaha TX500, with Montgomery Ward Mohawk tires (I kid you not), in 2013 on a 2011 Aprilia Tuono APRC with Pirelli Super Corsas, there is no reason for me to hang off. Honestly.

The key is being 1) smooth, 2) consistent in a corner, 3) being a good trail braking, 4) looking through the corner, 5) smooth roll on.

IF you can do those things you are good to go. There is no need to hang off, COW, CROW, etc. Those things will only get you a big fat reckless driving ticket from the po-po.

What is CROW? When the COW technique was demonstrated in my ARC the instructor was quick to point out that "you guys on sportbikes may get a ticket if you practice this on the road". Consequently, I usually do not utilize the COW much and find that a nice lean through countersteering can be very satisfying. :thumbup:

 

[Erci]

Thought came to mind on this subject...
Erci, while coaching, do you ask about any prior riding experience? I would almost bet that most of the people that use the index and/or 2 finger lever placement have dirtbike experience.

We do. In BRC, we rarely see the correct 2 finger technique. When we do, it's people with prior riding experience (sport or dirt).

In BRC2, many non-cruiser people use 2 finger.

 

[Erci]

What is CROW? When the COW technique was demonstrated in my ARC the instructor was quick to point out that "you guys on sportbikes may get a ticket if you practice this on the road". Consequently, I usually do not utilize the COW much and find that a nice lean through countersteering can be very satisfying. :thumbup:

The whole "get a ticket for looking aggressive" thing annoys me. If I'm doing the speed limit, why should it matter if I'm shifting my weight / upper body?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thought came to mind on this subject...
Erci, while coaching, do you ask about any prior riding experience? I would almost bet that most of the people that use the index and/or 2 finger lever placement have dirtbike experience.

I had rode/raced dirt bikes (125 and 250cc YZ's) way back in my teens..

Since I've been riding on the street since 1977 (there were no courses back then to get your MC license) I've developed the habit of covering the ft brake lever with my index and middle finger. Should I need it, that extra spilt second can indeed make a difference between a crash and a near miss...

Also, when approaching an intersection, with any cross traffic (IE, I have the right of way), I usually slow some and ALWAYS cover the rear brake pedal (just in case). Even if the driver looks right at you, it doesn't mean they see you....

Changing lane position (same lane) I do often depending on traffic, side street traffic, etc (basically trying to be seen by any potential threats)...

Definitly stay OUT OF THE MIDDLE PART of the lane. That's where all the grease, nails, crap is... I see so many (mostly for some reason) HD riders ride right down the middle, ???

 

[Water Bear]

I had rode/raced dirt bikes (125 and 250cc YZ's) way back in my teens..

Since I've been riding on the street since 1977 (there were no courses back then to get your MC license) I've developed the habit of covering the ft brake lever with my index and middle finger. Should I need it, that extra spilt second can indeed make a difference between a crash and a near miss...

Also, when approaching an intersection, with any cross traffic (IE, I have the right of way), I usually slow some and ALWAYS cover the rear brake pedal (just in case). Even if the driver looks right at you, it doesn't mean they see you....

Changing lane position (same lane) I do often depending on traffic, side street traffic, etc (basically trying to be seen by any potential threats)...

Definitly stay OUT OF THE MIDDLE PART of the lane. That's where all the grease, nails, crap is... I see so many (mostly for some reason) HD riders ride right down the middle, ???

I definitely change my in-lane position frequently, trying to keep my distance from turning cars or avoid tar snakes.

What is this about getting tickets for being in CoW? Sometimes I do that just to get a break from the wind.