Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Being I didn't understand 99% of your post, a couple of observations..

I don't think I've ever heard of the factory CO settings BOTH being set at 0.

Both, from what I've read both here and on the FJR forum, CO #'s are always set on the positive side and are rarely at the same setting (as you noted, the inner cylinders running slightly higher). The FJR having FOUR separate TB's, has 4 separate CO settings, again, all almost always being different from each other.

The TPS can be set for a slightly higher # if running lean (per Mama Yamaha in Ca, on my FJR while at the shop-running issues)

Randy, with the ignition was advanced, did you notice the lope happen to increase after that or when?

Perhaps returning the timing back to stock, the base air screw to 3/4 (page 3-7) turns out and bumping the CO settings (going to have to guestamate there, 5-25 or so?) and then go from there..

 

[FinalImpact]

Being I didn't understand 99% of your post, a couple of observations..

I don't think I've ever heard of the factory CO settings BOTH being set at 0.

Both, from what I've read both here and on the FJR forum, CO #'s are always set on the positive side and are rarely at the same setting (as you noted, the inner cylinders running slightly higher). The FJR having FOUR separate TB's, has 4 separate CO settings, again, all almost always being different from each other.

The TPS can be set for a slightly higher # if running lean (per Mama Yamaha in Ca, on my FJR while at the shop-running issues)

Randy, with the ignition was advanced, did you notice the lope happen to increase after that or when?

Perhaps returning the timing back to stock, the base air screw to 3/4 (page 3-7) turns out and bumping the CO settings (going to have to guestamate there, 5-25 or so?) and then go from there..

The info here in my last post is to hopefully close the open statement about WHAT the CO changes do on the FZ which is NOT an R6 or an FJR.
If you wonder through enough threads there is some debate that our bike behaves **more like** the R6 which has these options (Pending on ECU):

• R6 ECU options; Fuel injection amount can be adjusted in the following four ranges:
• Code C1: Fuel amount injected at 25% or less of throttle opening and at 3000 rpm or less of engine speed
• Code C2: Fuel amount injected at 25% or less of throttle opening and at 3000 rpm or more of engine speed
• Code C3: Fuel amount injected at 25% to 90% of throttle opening
• Code C4: Fuel amount injected at 90% or more of throttle opening

Like the FJR, the label or C# has a different function depending upon "where its applied, i.e. which bike." I conclude that by lowering the C2 and measuring the injector pulse width that there IS A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP to these C#:

C1 = 1&4 and impact AFR from idle upwards to X####
C2 = 2&3 and impact AFR from idle upwards to X####​

The misunderstanding likely began with folks applying **R6** logic to our detuned FZ6. Well that and the FZ6 FSM is vague so it muddies the water.
- Now add to that, folks like me who want to know how they derived the final "out the door settings" for each bike. POINT: there is only ONE Exhaust outlet for S1 or S2 ALL Exhaust gases are combined. For me it begs the question, How do you know which set of cylinders need what when looking at them as a group????? Perhaps a computer is raising and lowering the C#'s while recording data. Then based upon engine output (vacuum, RPM, Emissions, blah blah) they take and make a calculation and set the C# values. Maybe its simpler - Look at the header temperature???? IDK!

C2 = Cylinders 2&3 in blue have less "on time" than C1 = 1&4 in yellow.

I'm happy with how my engine runs and won't be moving the ignition back or removing the fuel added unless my data logger numbers show LOTS OF NEGATIVE VALUES under 5,000 RPM. That should offer more insight than most of us need to know!
Unless there is a need for it, I'm not going to take anymore time gathering data about what the OEM ECU does.

As for other bikes, it appears that several of the S1 chassis' have NEGATIVE numbers for these values and few are the same. i.e. -27/-17 << meaning 2&3 are getting more fuel as "-17" is closer to zero than "-27". But there is that TPS point also. Mine sits at 16 closed and 106 WOT with the original C# of 0/0. Perhaps looking at BOTH of these values shapes a bigger picture about why some C# are negative???

For me its about learning what I can with the stuff I have in reach and attempting to separate FACT from Fiction so we know what the hell is going on! Granted I don't know much more but I learned something!

Also - while in Diagnostic mode; our bikes will not start. I tried. It cranks, but running was disabled.

 

[FinalImpact]

Cliff, [MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION],
Take a look at the results above and see if you can shed some light on why a coil having +battery voltage on one side, doesn't show that voltage voltage as a high until clamped to ground by the ECM.

Setup:
Battery-->powers injector coils on one side-->ECM-->ECM shorts the other side to ground internally to complete the circuit and trigger an injection cycle.
I had my probe between the ECM and the injector coil and expected it to reside around battery voltage until the ECM pulls it to ground. But thats not what the signal shows on the O'scope!
Thoughts?


<< R throws out random thoughts for curiosity and conversation >>
Some math which may be in error!

Conventional 4 stroke with injector per cylinder and NOT batch injection fires and injects every 2 crankshaft revolutions.

@3000 RPM/2 = 1500 RPM
1500 RPM / 60 sec = 25 rev's/sec
25 rev's/sec = 1/25 => 0.04 sec OR 40ms per revolution

Looking at the O'scope pic at 3K it shows a scale of 2.5ms/div so roughly speaking its showing the Grounding from the ECM to last about 1.5ms. But this is "batch fire" so I think its really happening every revolution. Again, NO WORK LOAD will take little fuel, so this doesn't represent much.

BATCH FIRE MATH: it must inject every ## seconds???
3000 RPM / 60 sec = 50 rev's/sec
50 rev's/sec = 1/50 => 0.02 sec OR 20 ms per revolution

Here we measured our duty cycle (inject time) and found it to be 1.5ms @3000 RPM but AGAIN - its BATCH TIME so its double that right? Because its happening every rev vs every other so its actually:
1.5ms X 2 = 3 ms per rev @ 3000 RPM

Guessing here:
3 ms on time / 20 ms per rev = DC of 15% which seems reasonable
Well if:
3000 = 15% injector DC
6000 = 30%
12,000 = 60%

AGAIN - That was a no load measurement so the DC will be short compared to under load. My point is, its seems like a reasonable value. I need some coffee!


Now we just need an injector wizard to tell us how much they can spray (cc/min) when ran at 36.3 PSI with an 85% duty cycle (DC) as most manufactures do not run them past 90% DC...

 

[Motogiro]

Cliff, [MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION],
Take a look at the results above and see if you can shed some light on why a coil having +battery voltage on one side, doesn't show that voltage voltage as a high until clamped to ground by the ECM.

Setup:
Battery-->powers injector coils on one side-->ECM-->ECM shorts the other side to ground internally to complete the circuit and trigger an injection cycle.
I had my probe between the ECM and the injector coil and expected it to reside around battery voltage until the ECM pulls it to ground. But thats not what the signal shows on the O'scope!
Thoughts?


<< R throws out random thoughts for curiosity and conversation >>
Some math which may be in error!

@ FinalImpact Great stuff R! The one thing that comes to mind is some form of inductive reactance that interferes with what the scope is seeing by generating enough current on the High Z scope side. Maybe experiment with a brute force line filter before the scope probe but then we have the possibility other error in reading accurate voltages. Minimally, If you filter and see it vary it is probably inductive interference from the coil field building and collapsing @x frequency. This could even be inductive voltage in the shield providing phase cancellation. Once we get into RF ranges the fun begins! Lol! Granted low frequency RF but....

 

[ozgurakman]

Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

if I advance the timing and dont' change the co values, what would happen?

35 35 is sounds so much fuel for af ratio, what is your mpg?

I have got cr9e plugs on my 05 fz6, should I change them? As you said, they have no K letter in thier part name.

I've read all the thread and enjoyed. Thanks. I just really wished co 1-2 related to engine rpm but they related to cyl numbers...

P.S. I just did the r6 cam mod (2006 cams), co1:0 co2:7 (it was 0, i raised to 7), oem air filter, leo vince with no baffles. throttle response is bad under 8k and bike not pulls between 5-8k as with fz6 cams. This results are pretty same as "0l0dom0l0" named another fz user who did the cam mod (but he's got a power commander, I've not)

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

It should help the throttle response. Shoot for 5° and see what it does. The added timing improves fuel economy so I wouldn't hesitate to add fuel. Just try it. Cant hurt. Maybe start at 20/27 and see.

 

[KB2WYL]

Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

I had another one for ya, question that is [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION]. You stated to make sure that you file the rotor nub square. I would assume you mean square perpendicular to the rotor itself, i.e. the shortest dimension of the nub, it's height off of the rotor. In relation to the circumference of the rotor, seems to me that you would have to file off at a slight angle, and add metal behind it also at a slight angle. We would be doing it this way to get the rotor to "turn" the .1" at the outermost point, as opposed to filing and adding to the nub and keeping it square with how it is stock, which would be more of a "shift the whole rotor" thing. Does that make sense? Seems intuitive to me, like if I took off the .02 or whatever my math is from the nub, but kept the nub a perfect rectangle like it is, then when turning that 5 degrees now the nubs contact with the shaft would not be total but instead only the leading edge of the nub would contact the shaft....this part might be confusing for some, I guess this is the play at your own risk part Blah

Loren C.
KB2WYL
'07 FZ6. Dual headlight mod, Preload caps on the fork tubes, Racetech fork springs, Airbox mod, AIS block off, K&N filter, De-cat mid-pipe, OEM muffler gutted completely hollow with dual 2" exits, Stock header cut in half, cat's removed and welded back together, 15T front sprocket, Speedo healer, PCFC fuel control, Modified rearsets hard mounted, on/off switch solder disable, more to come!

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

if I advance the timing and dont' change the co values, what would happen?

35 35 is sounds so much fuel for af ratio, what is your mpg?

I have got cr9e plugs on my 05 fz6, should I change them? As you said, they have no K letter in thier part name.

I've read all the thread and enjoyed. Thanks. I just really wished co 1-2 related to engine rpm but they related to cyl numbers...

P.S. I just did the r6 cam mod (2006 cams), co1:0 co2:7 (it was 0, i raised to 7), oem air filter, leo vince with no baffles. throttle response is bad under 8k and bike not pulls between 5-8k as with fz6 cams. This results are pretty same as "0l0dom0l0" named another fz user who did the cam mod (but he's got a power commander, I've not)

I didn't see this sorry. As best I can tell the CO stuff impacts idle to maybe 5k and the numbers are not a direct relationship to % of CO. I would do the trigger mod to at least 4° BTDC in addition to the oem 5°.

Is yours an S1? Because raising the C0 values affects a limited range, unless you idle across town the fuel efficiency will not be impacted. That said, the little bit of ignition advance helps fuel economy and power. They detuned this engine as its an entry level bike and it in no way should be competing against their flagship R6 bike of that era.... It can be a happy machine and advancing the timing is a good thing. Not a bad thing.

 

[FinalImpact]

Loren, the cranks keyway is basically a square block. The triggers locator is a square. It only takes one wrong file stroke to ruin that relationship and overcut the trigger making it a pie shape and quickly you head from 4° advance to 8°....

Basically just keep in mind that every 0.0090" removed from the triggers locator advances it 1.0° BTDC or if measuring the outside movement, 0.0216"....

When done it needs to have the same shape it did but rotated the desired amount. Thats it! :thumbup:

 

[KB2WYL]

yeah I put it in a program so I could see it. I am definitely one not to touch anything until I am sure of what I am doing. Unless it is something that can't have any negative results anyway, i.e. exhaust cats open or straight piped through ;-) I just used a paint type program, but drawing it out I saw that yeah, I was completely wrong. The amount filed has to be square, in every way that it could be square (height, vertical length) to the original. What got me was.....Well, bottom line is I get it now, apologies for the confusing rant yesterday.

I'm still thinking about it. I was looking at the mount for the pickup as well. Wouldn't be too hard to machine something there for advance that could be set. Has anyone ever thought about that? And as for the rest of the nub, if a few thousandths are taken off, what have others done to add to the backside? TIG and file? Flat peen? Resistance weld? Just curious what else may have been tried already. I know what would be really nice, and that's a vacuum advance there, using the pickup moving, but I don't see myself going that far ha ha.

I'm going to cruise over to one of the other forums. I have to get this signature thing figured out, it's driving me nuts!

Loren C.
KB2WYL
'07 FZ6. Dual headlight mod, Preload caps on the fork tubes, Racetech fork springs, Airbox mod, AIS block off, K&N filter, De-cat mid-pipe, OEM muffler gutted completely hollow with dual 2" exits, Stock header cut in half, cat's removed and welded back together, 15T front sprocket, Speedo healer, PCFC fuel control, Modified rearsets hard mounted, on/off switch solder disable, more to come!

 

[FinalImpact]

What would be really nice is software and source code defining the OEM .bin so we knew in detail what the relationship of the 16+ maps hold and how they interact with each other.... :thumbup:

That aside, an add on module for either Bazzaz or PC to alter ignition maps would be great then you need to know the orignal map so you can safely play and I think we just now have that but I didnt a year ago.

That said vacuum alone is not enough as you need the TPS and rev counts.

As for making the pickup adjustable; yes, I looked but when a used trigger wheel is $5, its just not worth it to look any further. And we don't need any rogue parts detached inside the crankcase so there is that too.

 

[KB2WYL]

Yeah, the real world application, as often is the case, does not mirror the desire to play. And you're right, there's a lot more to it. I'll have to read through some of the other posts again. I remember hearing that the 1st and second gear retard had been verified, and that of course in comparison to the R6 we were neutered a bit. But I don't recall the reference to the 16 maps. What I said in the other thread, I would love to help in some way. I too would enjoy learning about what's going on in there (ecu).

I found this ad the other day, a classified, where someone was doing R6 flashes on the spot for 80$ up in Toronto. Who knows, all the info was no longer good, I tried. Not that it matters for the FZ6 but I was thinking maybe he had access to hardware/software that could be useful. For 80$, he had obviously done it on his own and was making a quick buck.

You said you think now we have it, where we didn't a year ago, have you been working on it again?

Loren C
KB2WYL

 

[FinalImpact]

As you might expect from an engine that runs from sensors, everything it knows comes from a lookup table so there are fuel maps, ignition maps, temperature interfaces, and then maps that tie all that together.
I won't take credit for it but yes, we know a lot of what it does but its just getting going.
Until I know more going to stay put here and keep it vague.

 

[KB2WYL]

I hear ya. Got on to other things tonight, but will get to it soon. You might want to check your picture on page 2 of this thread. Shows filing the left side of the nub, when looking at the wheel from the back. Correct. But in that picture with the blue line drawn, that is looking at the wheel from the front. If one was to file off the left side as it's shown in that pic, they would just have less nub in contact with the keyway. It can be confusing, the nub looks really similar in pictures, it's hard to tell if it's sticking out (backside) or an indentation (front side), but I have wheel in hand right now

I suppose i'll start doing a bit of research myself when I have time. With most of my vehicles, I've never had the desire to mess with the ECU so I've never tried to figure out how they tick. As much as it would be nice for all of us to have a solution to the 1st and 2nd gear issues, the timing issues, etc, it would also be nice to know how to even just look at it personally. With the truck it's "does it drive?" "good". With my bike I feel more of an interest. Even if i can't modify anything, I would love to be able to see the maps, to be able to see the restrictions. Kind of like the prize in the cereal box, once you know it's in there, you have to go look for it!

Loren C.
KB2WYL
'07 FZ6. Dual headlight mod, Preload caps on the fork tubes, Racetech fork springs, Airbox mod, AIS block off, K&N filter, De-cat mid-pipe, OEM muffler gutted completely hollow with dual 2" exits, Stock header cut in half, cat's removed and welded back together, 15T front sprocket, Speedo healer, PCFC fuel control, Modified rearsets hard mounted, on/off switch solder disable, more to come!

 

[KB2WYL]

Has anyone heard of PV Tech ECU R&D? I've written a few companies inquiring about flashes, mods, heck just plain info on the FZ6 ecu and what can be done. Most (including ECU unleashed) didn't even take the time to reply to me. These guys got back to me within 12 hours. Said they don't do it themselves, they make hardware/software solutions for people (or re-sellers, garages, etc) to be able to edit the ECUs themselves. Asked for the part number, etc etc, so I sent it to them. Waiting to hear back. Just wondering if anyone had heard of them, or any other companies that deal with the FZ6 mitsubishi ECUs. Web search gets you, what, 2 companies? And like I said, I tried writing them. Wasn't just phishing either, specifically said "If I can just know exactly what you do, I'd be willing to try". Not like they're giving away secrets by telling me what the heck I'd be paying 4-500$ for!!

Loren C.

 

[FinalImpact]

Another.... write them....

[email protected]

They said they don't have it but are adding it to their list of bikes they should support!

I gave them a lot of info.... friendly nice guys....

 

[KB2WYL]

Done! I'll see what they say as well, thanks.

Loren C.

 

[FinalImpact]

I have my fairing here which I cleaned and waxed (no not pulling hairs, the protective hand rub wax!), the gauge cluster, a wiring harness, ECU, CPS trigger and a battery! Sadly - no life from the gauge. Yes, numerous jumpers... perhaps less :beer: :don'tknow:

Anyway, plan was to verify trigger alone powers system on. Maybe it wants some "feel good" from all of the missing sensors?

Oh well!

 

[FinalImpact]

Correction - Its ALIVE and running in the house! Idle is steady for once! Haha!

There may be some error codes! lol

Dewalt is maxxed out. Time for brushless LiPo powered motor....

Anyone have a transmission I can borrow?? Blah

 

[KB2WYL]

Oh man I wish I lived closer, I want to play too! As far as spinning it, you could steal a transmission (I know you want an FZ one for other tests) from some RC thing. Usually they have some 10:1 ratio or better, would get you up to par even with the Dewalt lol.

So I have 2 posts tonight, first is this. I e-mailed Woolrich Racing. They were awesome, responded right away (hint hint ECU Unleashed). We went back and forth a few times and it ended in this:

Yeah, we're more concerned with the part numbers which are what you given us above:
4S8-8591A-20-00
The other stuff below that is stuff specific to the ECU manufacturer.

We try to figure out how many ECUs are out there for that specific model so we can have complete coverage or at least do the release with the more prevalent ones present if there are a few ECUs for the model. Usually we just buy a slew of them and add them all.

I can't say exactly what's happening in the FZ6 just because we haven't cracked any open. I'm sure the tuning parameters from the other FZ models we're working on are going to be different. But usually where we see restrictions is in two places. First would be the timing. Usually timing will be set up one of a few ways:
- one timing map across all gears
- timing in sets of 2 or 3 gears (1-2, 3-4, 5-6 or 1-3, 4-6)
- individually through each gear

If they're restricting the timing in the earlier gears, then chances are they're using one of the later options. Not to say that they couldn't be using one gear map for all gears, because they can restrict it in other ways then...

Either through ETV mapping if the bike has an electronic throttle setup similar to the R6 or Secondary Throttle Plate mappings. Those are usually done per gear, so that may be another way they're limiting it. Again, all hypothetical until we get into the thick of it on this model. But hopefully the other FZ models we're working on are similar to the FZ6 so it will be an easy addition.

So usually we add the basics, fueling (both IAP fueling and TPS fueling), timing, and other maps (stuff like ETV mapping, STP mapping, ignition dwell, exhaust valve mapping, fuel trims, etc). In addition we will do stuff with the rev limiters to make them adjustable as well as remove a top speed limiter if there is one hard coded in the ECU. Finally we get to the advanced stuff like fan temps, disabling exup valve, pair valve and removing fuel cut. So we'll do what we can for you guys!

-Anthony


So, that's nice. Figured you guys would like that.