Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger

FinalImpact

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Project outline: determine Ignition Advance rate of Stock 2008 FZ6

Goal:
Plot graph from idle to redline of ignition advance/spark advance while changing variables. Questions are many! Like; What effects advance, how much does it have, what can I gain by changing it.. .. ..

At minimum I expect the RPM, TPS, and maybe the gear selected to be variables. Others could include Engine temperature, Engine Vacuum, and O2 output (highly unlikely), airbox temp (also HU).

How will I figure it out:
Using the bike under load is not an option as that involves holding a timing light to its internals while going down the road reading a degree wheel with oil flying out og the crankcase. Not gonna happen. Next option is to fake the ECU into thinking the bike is running. That is doable!
With an RC speed controller and brushless motor I intend to spin a spare trigger wheel up through a range of RPMs while a spare CKP sensor monitors its output sending it to the ECU. Now compare the rpm vs timing advance delivered to the spark plugs using an oscilloscope. The waste spark system will complicate this, but I'll figure that out.

Issue to overcome:
1) I need an electronic transmission as the crank on the bike won't be turning but the ECM will see a crank input signal. I can verify my tach and motor speed calculations so I have two reference points in that area. I need to make a circuit with a divider, an amplifier, and out output that has selection to mimic what the transmission gear ratios do (an electronic divider circuit that matches the ratios of the transmission) and feed that to the ECU. So I need mimic the transmissions output sensor.

2) Simulate TPS = easy, turn the grip
3) simulate Engine Temp = easy, a variable resistor
4) simulate Engine vacuum = easy, a syringe to the sensor with a gauge to monitor pressure.
5) O2 sensor, I doubt it looks at this, but I need to consider it might expect a signal. If so another simulator to make. A signusoidal wave floating on a DC signal. ~ possible ~

WHY WOULD I DO THIS?? lol
Well, I modified an OEM trigger wheel advancing the static timing about 5 degrees! The engine WAKES UP! It becomes VERY responsive to throttle input, it runs smoother, pulls harder and makes me grin more.

Main reason; I really want to know if the advance curve cares what gear the bike is in. If it changes the curve based upon "what gear is selected" It could really come alive a rumor has it, 1,2,3 offer limited advance. Also the R6 runs about 5+ degrees more advance than our engine.

If I find it has limited advance, I may ship off othe ECM to ECU Unleashed who I might add, does to Group Buys of ECU re-map.... Still not cheap tho.

Meet Trigger:


Trigger, test drive #1:


Trigger at 1214 RPM: hint - my idle speed is roughly 1200 RPM so this is a good baseline to work from.
RPM = t/period or 60sec/0.0494sec = 1214 RPM


Trigger plus Dewalt: lol



Its going to make countless MIL codes to the display, but I don't care. I'll have the fuel pump disconnected but let the plugs and injectors fire. Injectors MAY get unlpugged as I I suppose this could heat them with no fuel to cool them. IDK

That's it for now. oh - you'll notice the trigger wheel is not symmetrical. The camel hump next to each other creates the variation shown on the O'scope. It locates number one. I'd like to make an electronic filter to detect it. So I have some reading to do unless someone knows how to extract that signature from the signal!

Also - thanks Skooter!!! :thumbup:
 
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FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

PROBLEMS:

2013-09-28
It just dawned on me that internally I don't know when the ECU is counting a signal *pulse* from the trigger wheel to use for clocking the various functions. Specifically the one used to compare the transmission output shaft for speed calculations.

That is with 8 potential triggers from the trigger wheel, I don't know if its 1:1 , 8:1, or some other count in between to drive the comparator to simulate the drive train output shaft speed. I guess "if" I ever get it right, the speedo will agree with the RPM for that gear. Its the only salvation I can see to solve the riddle.

I'll need real data from the bike in first gear at idle. Maybe grab 2nd gear too so know the relationship.

- - -
 

fazil

Junior Member
Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Well, I modified an OEM trigger wheel advancing the static timing about 5 degrees! The engine WAKES UP! It becomes VERY responsive to throttle input, it runs smoother, pulls harder and makes me grin more.
Are you talking about a Fz6 engine?
An other member has done it about a year ago. But he didn't give enough details about the mod and outcome.

http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-mods/37988-timing-timing-timing.html
 

FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Yes, but it has one drawback; it also advances the fuel injection which isn't helpful to our cause. But with a fuel management system you can offset this by adding more fuel.

Here is what I did for a sanity check: The OD of the trigger wheel is 2.4785"
Dia * Pie/360 = In/per degree
2.4785" * 3.14159 = circumference/360 = 0.021628" per degree. If you want it advanced 4 degrees from its original location, that internal slot need to allow for rotation of 4deg * 0.021628"/deg = 0.086".

So, doing the same math on the internal slot of the smaller diameter (I forgot its ID), but do your math based upon the circumference of the slot dia not the hole dia. It matters!

Lets say the circumference of the locater tab/slot is 0.60" (guess).
((0.60" * 3.14159)/360) * 4 deg = 0.021" you need to open the slot to advance the static timing 4 degrees in addition to the 5 degrees its supposedly set at now. Engine spins CW so open the slot to allow the wheel to move CW.

FWIW: It doesn't seem like much, but that trigger wheel has some mass. Perhaps even enough to move itself over time. Either weld up the backside or use a flat punch on something solid to peen the metal flat expanding it to fill the slot. Yes, it will be thinner but it has something vs nothing.

EDIT: You need to run higher octane gas if you do this!!!
 

darius

Never stop exploring
Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

There you go with your PIES again, Randy. :D

Looks really cool. Don't blow it up!!
 

FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

There you go with your PIES again, Randy. :D

Looks really cool. Don't blow it up!!
That why we have craigslist; i.e. well cared for, 2nd owner, adult owned, never raced, "minor" mods, but ate pie one day so I sold it! :BLAA:

She has to last until the former spouse is paid off, then perhaps an FZ9! :eek:
 

FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Speed sensor part of my project...
We need to know which gear is aligned to the speed sensor and how many teeth it has so I can make circuit to output what the ECM should see in relation to the CPS signal. i.e math of primary reduction, minus gear selected plus the tooth count of gear adjacent to speed sensor.

Primary reduction ratio 86/44 (1.955)
Secondary reduction ratio 46/16 (2.875) - don't care, sensor can't see it...

Once again, thanks to the detailed pictures [MENTION=22030]AdamFZ[/MENTION] took, I've narrowed this down to 5th gear on the input which is gear #3 on the Transmission drawing having 21 teeth. Notice it floats on the input shaft and is in constant mesh with gear #29 which is splined to the output shaft. So, regardless of the gear selected (if any (N)), if the chain moves, it will detect it.





Gear ratio
1st 37/13 (2.846:1)
2nd 37/19 (1.947:1)
3rd 28/18 (1.556:1)
4th 32/24 (1.333:1)
5th 25/21 (1.190:1)
6th 26/24 (1.083:1)

At a glance it looks like the circuit needs a simple divider of 1.955:1 and then I'm looking at a 21 multiplier to emulate the signal the ECM sees from the speed sensor for the gear choosen.

(44/86) * (13/37) * 21t = 3.7747 x RPM....

Although this certainly is subject to error!

Speed sensor Output voltage reading when tire is spun by hand:
0.6 V–4.8 V–0.6 V–4.8 V

Road blocks are: the crazy amount of voltage these sensors output as the velocity of the trigger devices increase. The trigger sensor goes from just under 1 volt at 100 RPM to over 50 volts which means I need supply rail of +/-30 volts for the circuit to operate. So now its about building supply rails capable of doing this. And no, I have not successfully detected and counted from the missing/stagger tooth. Its a serious PITA to successfully track that signature when the voltages swings so dramatically with change in RPM.

This could land over my head. It has been since I stated spinning that damn trigger. Its likely to end by simply mechanically advancing the trigger one more time and leaving it.
 
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FinalImpact

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An actual breakthrough! An IC and circuit that does what I needed! The IC is $4.00 and is available. What I don't know is how and what it does w/the double hump on the wheel?!

I know I mentioned the pickup was a Hall, that is incorrect. Its a AC magnetic pickup coil hence the reason you see the voltage climb with RPM.

Potential Solution:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm1815.pdf
LM1815MX/NOPB Texas Instruments | 296-35392-6-ND | DigiKey $$4.00$$

Then scroll down about 2/3 of the way here: MS1/Extra Ignition Hardware Manual and/or search for "VR input Sensor wiring for a V2.2 PCB"

LM1815 Adaptive Variable Reluctance Sensor Amplifier
FEATURES

• Adaptive Hysteresis
• Single Supply Operation
• Ground Referenced Input
• True Zero Crossing Timing Reference
• Operates from 2V to 12V Supply Voltage
• Handles Inputs from 100 mVP-P to over 120VP-P with External Resistor
• CMOS Compatible Logic

APPLICATIONS
• Position Sensing with Notched Wheels
• Zero Crossing Switch
• Motor Speed Control
• Tachometer
• Engine Testing

DESCRIPTION
The LM1815 is an adaptive sense amplifier and default gating circuit for motor control applications. The sense amplifier provides a one-shot pulse output whose leading edge coincides with the negative- going zero crossing of a ground referenced input signal such as from a variable reluctance magnetic pick-up coil.
In normal operation, this timing reference signal is processed (delayed) externally and returned to the LM1815. A Logic input is then able to select either the timing reference or the processed signal for transmission to the output driver stage.

The adaptive sense amplifier operates with a positive going threshold which is derived by peak detecting the incoming signal and dividing this down. Thus the input hysteresis varies with input signal amplitude. This enables the circuit to sense in situations where the high speed noise is greater than the low speed signal amplitude. Minimum input signal is 150mVP-P.

Simpler - do a comparison: NCV1124
Dual Variable−Reluctance Sensor Interface IC
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/NCV1124 DATA SHEET.PDF

lol and for brake systems - NCV7001 Quad Variable Reluctance Sensor Interface IC
 

FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Tags: throttle chop, Abrupt throttle response, rewetting runners, smooth input

Because advancing the ignition timing can destroy an engine I haven't went into much detail on what I've been doing or done. Anyone reading this and deciding to tackle it on their own - this is on you - if you play and ruin your engine don't say I didn't warn you! An error here could cost you an engine and place your safety at risk!

That said, for the past couple of months I've been slowly moving the ignition timing "advancing it" small amounts to see how the engine responds. The R6 sits at 10° advance at idle and has slightly more compression than the FZ6 at 5° at idle. Needless to say I've had the trigger wheel in and out and back to stock several times to see if what I feel is real or just my imagination. Remember; I'm the change one thing at time person so I know what does what.

Bottom line: Adding ~ +5° of advance had a change I didn't expect. It seems to help the partial throttle transition where it has that abrupt ON/OFF binary input. The Chop! I am not saying this is the fix abrupt throttle chop or that everyone should try it, but if a couple of you were to try it and comment as to its effectiveness that could help others who dislike this attribute on the FZ. I'll give you the details and we'll go from there.

PROS:
  • Engine is smoother, less vibrations
  • Less exhaust popping on deceleration (2 Bro Exhaust w/air block off plates)
  • No change in engine temp
  • Partial throttle re-wet is improved (~ 1500 RPM - 4500 RPM)
  • Bike starts easier
  • Easy to do
  • Throttle Response improved
CONS:
  • ** YOU CAN RUIN YOUR ENGINE if advanced in EXCESS!!!! **
  • Fuel grade MUST BE improved (regular to plus, or if its real hot outside, Premium), to get the most from this mod.
  • It will ping/detonate upon take off on steep hills much easier. This can be avoided by slipping the clutch (bring the RPMs up), which most do anyway!
  • Its time consuming to mark and determine degrees of advance as the rotor is very small!

Undecided:
Colder heat range of spark plugs may reduce detonation and stay clean
It may improve MPGs

NOTE: My FZ has the C0/C1 changed from OEM = 0 to 25 for both C0/C1


If none of this stands out and makes 100% sense to you, please don't mess with your bike! I am not responsible for damage as a result of your actions!

In short, one needs a timing light with digital dial back so you can confirm what you've done.

Tools:
Veneer Calipers with 0.001" resolution
Allen wrench
12mm socket / breaker or easier w/ AIR Impact gun
Files
Vise
Patience!

Let me know if your interested!
Regards,
FI
 

FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Of all the playing I've done it may be tad much at 12°. The plugs went from a light chocolate brown to bare with scary looking deposits on them. I cant say for certain what it is but one possibility is aluminum. However it could be something in the fuel. Also the headers and mid pipe are taking on a flat dull appearance. It certainly changed the sound of pipes but without a knock sensor its time to go back a few degrees or drop in cooler plugs and see how it does.

In the interim I've bumped the C0/C1 values = 35 from 25. Note OEM setting was 0 for both...
You wouldn't know it from looking at these pictures but the insulator is near white w no color. Hence adding more fuel.

No 3


No 4


Measure the dia through the center of the nub (red) for calculations. File (blue) so as to advance timing.
Shown Backside of trigger wheel:
 
Last edited:

rk8950

Junior Member
Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

If I read this correctly to get 4 degrees you file the .021"? Wow the effort you put into this awesome. Did you ever figure out if it does anything to timing with a gear position sensor?
 

Motogiro

Vrrroooooom!
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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Project outline: determine Ignition Advance rate of Stock 2008 FZ6

Goal:
Plot graph from idle to redline of ignition advance/spark advance while changing variables. Questions are many! Like; What effects advance, how much does it have, what can I gain by changing it.. .. ..

At minimum I expect the RPM, TPS, and maybe the gear selected to be variables. Others could include Engine temperature, Engine Vacuum, and O2 output (highly unlikely), airbox temp (also HU).

How will I figure it out:
Using the bike under load is not an option as that involves holding a timing light to its internals while going down the road reading a degree wheel with oil flying out og the crankcase. Not gonna happen. Next option is to fake the ECU into thinking the bike is running. That is doable!
With an RC speed controller and brushless motor I intend to spin a spare trigger wheel up through a range of RPMs while a spare CKP sensor monitors its output sending it to the ECU. Now compare the rpm vs timing advance delivered to the spark plugs using an oscilloscope. The waste spark system will complicate this, but I'll figure that out.

Issue to overcome:
1) I need an electronic transmission as the crank on the bike won't be turning but the ECM will see a crank input signal. I can verify my tach and motor speed calculations so I have two reference points in that area. I need to make a circuit with a divider, an amplifier, and out output that has selection to mimic what the transmission gear ratios do (an electronic divider circuit that matches the ratios of the transmission) and feed that to the ECU. So I need mimic the transmissions output sensor.

2) Simulate TPS = easy, turn the grip
3) simulate Engine Temp = easy, a variable resistor
4) simulate Engine vacuum = easy, a syringe to the sensor with a gauge to monitor pressure.
5) O2 sensor, I doubt it looks at this, but I need to consider it might expect a signal. If so another simulator to make. A signusoidal wave floating on a DC signal. ~ possible ~

WHY WOULD I DO THIS?? lol
Well, I modified an OEM trigger wheel advancing the static timing about 5 degrees! The engine WAKES UP! It becomes VERY responsive to throttle input, it runs smoother, pulls harder and makes me grin more.

Main reason; I really want to know if the advance curve cares what gear the bike is in. If it changes the curve based upon "what gear is selected" It could really come alive a rumor has it, 1,2,3 offer limited advance. Also the R6 runs about 5+ degrees more advance than our engine.

If I find it has limited advance, I may ship off othe ECM to ECU Unleashed who I might add, does to Group Buys of ECU re-map.... Still not cheap tho.

Meet Trigger:


Its going to make countless MIL codes to the display, but I don't care. I'll have the fuel pump disconnected but let the plugs and injectors fire. Injectors MAY get unlpugged as I I suppose this could heat them with no fuel to cool them. IDK

That's it for now. oh - you'll notice the trigger wheel is not symmetrical. The camel hump next to each other creates the variation shown on the O'scope. It locates number one. I'd like to make an electronic filter to detect it. So I have some reading to do unless someone knows how to extract that signature from the signal!

Also - thanks Skooter!!! :thumbup:

Like your scope Randy. I think I'll be picking up a Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth 3D Printing, Arduino, Robotics | Sainsmart

Just for seeing performance on a project I'm working on and I've missed having one all these years. Will also be handy for seeing voltages (ac anomaly) on the bike and car.

If you have a picture of the trigger wheel with a known dimension, I can scale it into Autocad and do a drawing so anyone can have a drawing showing how much to take out for the timing advance. Maybe an underbucket shim, 7.48mm to scale to? :)

Hope mom is doing well...
 
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FinalImpact

2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone
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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

If I read this correctly to get 4 degrees you file the .021"? Wow the effort you put into this awesome. Did you ever figure out if it does anything to timing with a gear position sensor?
That is incorrect Please read it again as I simply gave the tools to do the task. i.e. "Lets say the circumference of the locater tab/slot is 0.60" (guess)."

You have to determine the radius out to the "center" of that locater nub from the center of the crank. Then the math for that distance. Not the hole diameter.

Does that make sense?
 

FinalImpact

2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone
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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Like your scope Randy. I think I'll be picking up a Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth 3D Printing, Arduino, Robotics | Sainsmart

Just for seeing performance on a project I'm working on and I've missed having one all these years. Will also be handy for seeing voltages (ac anomaly) on the bike and car.

If you have a picture of the trigger wheel with a known dimension, I can scale it into Autocad and do a drawing so anyone can have a drawing showing how much to take out for the timing advance. Maybe an underbucket shim, 7.48mm to scale to? :)

Hope mom is doing well...
Scopes are so helpful and know what's going on! Very good to have around!
As for posting the info, I have all the math at home just never typed it in. The main reason being folks need to know what they're doing and how it can impact the engines life.

BOTTOM LINE:
** IF ANY FILING ** results in moving the OD of the trigger MORE THAN 0.100", you've gone too far. So, its easy to check as long as while filing you don't rotate the engine.
 

rk8950

Junior Member
Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

It would be easier for a hillbilly if I just knew how .000" to remove to advance 5 degrees lol. Did you ever figure anything out with gear position sensor?
 

FinalImpact

2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone
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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

It would be easier for a hillbilly if I just knew how .000" to remove to advance 5 degrees lol. Did you ever figure anything out with gear position sensor?
OK - as long as you accept the risk and know you need better fuel ALWAYS!
When I get home later I'll look at my notes.

When I couldn't constrain the reluctors (coil pickup sensor) output and trigger from the missing tooth I bailed. The voltage goes from 5V out at idle to 55+ Volts at 10,000 RPM. I bought the chip to do it directly but was focusing on how to shove coil packs into the valve cover and drive them with another driver.

I'm good about starting projects and then realize I lack the tools (and patience) to perform some critical step before going on. Its just money right?!! lol
 

rk8950

Junior Member
Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

oh yeah I know the risk, my main hobby is sbf with nitrous and it is very timing sensitve. My bike also has a almost full tank of 93 octane ready and waiting. If you want to pm the amount that is fine also.

I can also relate to starting projects and not completing, yours are just a lot more high tech. Lol
Thanks for the help
 

FinalImpact

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Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

How I calculated amount to file off locator Tab:

The OD of the trigger wheel is 2.475" (outer edge of humps)
Dia (inches) * Pie/360 = In/per degree
2.4750" * 3.14159 = circumference/360 = 0.021597" per degree (OUTSIDE EDGE).

To advance 5.0° from its original location the outside must advance:
0.021597"/deg * 4.0 degrees = 4.0 deg = 0.0863"
0.021597"/deg * 5.0 degrees = 5.0 deg = 0.1079"
^^ YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS TO VERIFY YOUR WORK! ^^ i.e. set the finished trigger on the crank (hold with bolt). Rotate CCW and measure to the engine case forming a 90°. Right down value. Rotate fully CW and measure to the case forming the same 90° angle. A dial indicator is best, but veneer calipers will work. The value should match your calculations above.

Calculate how much to file off the Tab:
To determine amount to remove from the Tab I broke it into 3 sections; the hole (ID1), the Slot (ID2) and the Tab (ID3) to determine the diameter to solve for. This is because we have no actual center or I'd to solve for the radius.

ID1 = 0.6305" dia HOLE } measure hole w/calipers "direct"
ID2 = 0.1050" X 2 SLOT } Total distance across open hole MINUS ID1. Multiply this by 2. "indirect"
ID3 = 0.1955" X 1 TAB } measure length of Tab "direct"
=======================
Dia = 1.036" to the center of the Tab and an equal distance opposite.
Meaning, it matters which section of the Tab we solve for, inner, middle or outer edge AND we are solving for a circle or the diameter ~ the red lines.
Trigger_S320.BACKSIDE Solved.jpg


Apply formula:
1.036" * 3.1415/360° = 0.0090"

4.0° * 0.0090"/deg = 0.036"
4.5° * 0.0090"/deg = 0.040"
5.0° * 0.0090"/deg = 0.045"
5.5° * 0.0090"/deg = 0.0495"
6.0° * 0.0090"/deg = 0.054"

NOTE: the OEM Locator Tab is 0.197" wide uncut. File the leading edge (allows CW rotation) to obtain final thickness.
4° adv: 0.197" - 0.036" = 0.161" final width!
5° adv: 0.197" - 0.045" = 0.152" final width!

There ya go. Use a dial indicator to verify amount rotated. Weld up the unused portion once you meet your desired amount of rotation.
Measure OFTEN, REMOVE LITTLE and VERIFY amount of rotation!

** THIS IS A GUIDE ONLY! ** Results will vary!

Good luck!
Do acknowledge that I am NOT RESPONSIBLE for ANYTHING YOU DO TO YOUR VEHICLE!!!

Edit; 2019-03-03 Correct typo. OEM locator tab is 0.197" wide.
 
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rk8950

Junior Member
Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

Thanks for all the info. Gonna go mess with it here in a min, but wont be able to test it cause it is pouring rain out now:(
 
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