Electrical Problem or Riding Problem?

[MasterOfPupets]

So, I had a weird issue when I took my bike out yesterday for a couple hours. A bit of background:

Run a Battery Tender Junior on the bike for about 2 months to get ready for the season. Also installed a USB port so I could charge my phone/use it as a GPS.

Bike starts out running fine and I plug my phone in and go. Most of the roads I'm riding on are low speed limit (30 or 35 mph) so my revs stay pretty low the whole time since this is just a nice leisurely ride to knock the dust off. I'd say most of the time I'm running at about 3000 RPM in third gear. Probably about 2 hours in at a stop on a hill the bike stalls (could have been my fault, but I don't think it was) so I start it again and take off. Then the bike starts acting funny. At my normal low-RPM cruising speed it starts running very choppy, like the cylinders are missing. When I get on the gas a little it seams to have no problems, but at a cruising speed I can't maintain a good speed, it just feels like I'm bouncing the throttle when I know I'm not. The check engine light also comes on any time I come to a light and sit and idle.

So, needless to say I found the fastest way home once this started happening.

Got the bike home and checked the code for the check engine light. Comes up as Code 46. I google it and found on here that it is a problem with electrical for the FI system, usually a charging issue. So, I parked it and plugged in the Tender. Showed a red light (meaning less that 80% charge) and I walked away to let it charge. Came back a few hours later and he tender had a blinking red light (meaning it wasn't charging for some reason.) I was confused but went ahead and unplugged the tender and let it sit for a while since I was working on something else in the garage. After about an hour, I figured I'd plug it in again and see what happens. Damn thing started charging again (solid red) so I let it be. About an hour later I came back and it was blinking Green (over 80%) and this morning it is showing solid green (charged) and I fired it up. Seams to be idling fine again.

I plan on taking it out some this weekend since the weather should be nice and seeing if I run into the same issue without the phone plugged in.

My question:
I know people say that the bike actually doesn't start running off the Stator until it hits a higher RPM (4000ish if I'm not mistaken) but would running it the way I did with a phone charging really run the battery down that quickly? I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is with the components (battery not holding a proper charge, Stator not properly charging) or with my riding (cruising at 3000RPM, never going above 6000 - Pussy riding since I really don't want to hear it from my wife if I get a ticket.)

Any thoughts from the more experienced people out there? I do have a multimeter, but electrical isn't really my thing. Not sure what I should test for.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

So, I had a weird issue when I took my bike out yesterday for a couple hours. A bit of background:

Run a Battery Tender Junior on the bike for about 2 months to get ready for the season. Also installed a USB port so I could charge my phone/use it as a GPS.

Bike starts out running fine and I plug my phone in and go. Most of the roads I'm riding on are low speed limit (30 or 35 mph) so my revs stay pretty low the whole time since this is just a nice leisurely ride to knock the dust off. I'd say most of the time I'm running at about 3000 RPM in third gear. Probably about 2 hours in at a stop on a hill the bike stalls (could have been my fault, but I don't think it was) so I start it again and take off. Then the bike starts acting funny. At my normal low-RPM cruising speed it starts running very choppy, like the cylinders are missing. When I get on the gas a little it seams to have no problems, but at a cruising speed I can't maintain a good speed, it just feels like I'm bouncing the throttle when I know I'm not. The check engine light also comes on any time I come to a light and sit and idle.

So, needless to say I found the fastest way home once this started happening.

Got the bike home and checked the code for the check engine light. Comes up as Code 46. I google it and found on here that it is a problem with electrical for the FI system, usually a charging issue. So, I parked it and plugged in the Tender. Showed a red light (meaning less that 80% charge) and I walked away to let it charge. Came back a few hours later and he tender had a blinking red light (meaning it wasn't charging for some reason.) I was confused but went ahead and unplugged the tender and let it sit for a while since I was working on something else in the garage. After about an hour, I figured I'd plug it in again and see what happens. Damn thing started charging again (solid red) so I let it be. About an hour later I came back and it was blinking Green (over 80%) and this morning it is showing solid green (charged) and I fired it up. Seams to be idling fine again.

I plan on taking it out some this weekend since the weather should be nice and seeing if I run into the same issue without the phone plugged in.

My question:
I know people say that the bike actually doesn't start running off the Stator until it hits a higher RPM (4000ish if I'm not mistaken) but would running it the way I did with a phone charging really run the battery down that quickly? I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is with the components (battery not holding a proper charge, Stator not properly charging) or with my riding (cruising at 3000RPM, never going above 6000 - Pussy riding since I really don't want to hear it from my wife if I get a ticket.)

Any thoughts from the more experienced people out there? I do have a multimeter, but electrical isn't really my thing. Not sure what I should test for.

Well you're wondering if it would drain the battery that quickly, well it wasn't really that quickly, was it? You said you did about two hours of low speed/low rpm cruising. I don't know many batteries that can almost single-handedly provide the current for:

-Speedo
-At least one headlight
-4 blinker running lights
-tail light running light
-provide spark for 4 cylinders
-charge a phone on top of all of the above

for a long time. I mean the stator was definitely providing some charging (especially during acceleration, I'm sure), but the battery is pretty small on these bikes. Imagine running just the spark plugs off of something like a cell phone battery... It would drain in a matter of minutes(if not faster!). I tried looking in the service manual to find the dissipated power per plug per zap, but do remember that our bike also uses a waste spark system, so the plugs fire when any given cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke, but also at TDC on the exhaust stroke (when that cylinder's buddy is at TDC on the compression stroke). This definitely doesn't help with energy conservation.

For now, I would chalk it up to the low RPM riding. Put a bottle of fuel injector cleaner through the bike if it's been sitting for a while as the fuel may have fouled and the rough idle might really be from clogged injectors or a clogged fuel pump pickup. Other than that, if the problem persists, I would start checking the stator output and perhaps the R/R as well.

 

[FinalImpact]

Can I just type "electrical" and call it done? :spank:

In my "hands on testing" I have found that the charging system is "mostly" effective when above 2500 RPM. That said, 1600 is nearly enough to negate loss as compared to sitting and idling at say 1300 which will drain the battery with dual headlights and fan cycling. As Chance stated, these have little reserve capacity and too much time at lower RPMs can empty the bucket so to speak! << Wha??? Empty?

Think of the battery as glass of water. When fully charged our glass is full. If the combined load and RPM result in the glass getting emptied it takes time to filter more water and fill it. So, if you take take take, soon there is nothing left, the glass is empty - your battery dead! That said, I think your battery was low when you left and never peaked.

Your best defense may be that hand held meter. You don't have to lift the tank to measure the batteries state, just remove the seat and reach in to the Regulator Rectifier like this picture. Although you can use an engine bolt (as ground or battery minus) and the single red wire for the other probe connection (battery plus).

After riding the battery in ~70°F temperatures should be above 12.9Vdc. If its not, use the charger.

Battery Voltage can be checked from the RR w/the seat off:
Shown is Cold start, @ 1500 RPM, 14.4vdc


So, if you keep tabs on the battery and measure it after sitting parked, it should be close to 13.00 Volts. Lets say its 12.95V and you plug in your accessory. If said load/accessory is detectable at your volt meter it could be drawing too much. Like lets say it drops to 12.5V. Either your battery is in poor health or the load is too much. Off hand, I would not expect it to draw more than 1 Amp which would equate to 13 watts from the bikes potential of ~300 watts or so.

That said, Its my observation that those who trickle batteries as the normal maintenacne appear to be the one having these issues! Batteries are happy if charged and left alone!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The battery will charge, ever so slightly as low as 1500 RPM.

I ride 3-7,000 RPM's mostly and have 4.5 years on my battery but its due for replacement. Current cranking voltage drops to 8 volts but still runs fine(dash goes out while cranking). It currently shows 12.8 sitting BUT drops 1/3 of its capacity cranking.

The bike can be charging fully at 14 + volts (mines does at the VR), but the battery is most likely worn out and won't hold the amperage/charge.

Simply pull the battery and get it load tested at any automotive parts shop (usually free).

Once I run my tank low, my new, spare (not even filled yet) Yuasa is going in. I don't like to push and certainly got my moneys worth..

 

[MasterOfPupets]

So I ran it in the garage some with the multimeter connected to see what kind of voltages I'm getting. I tested it directly off the battery (using the SAE tender lead) and I'll test using the R/R under the seat when I get time, hopefully later tonight (holiday with family is cutting my testing short). Findings:

Fresh off the charger, bike off: 13.00V
Bike On: ~12.1V
Starting: Drops to ~9V
Running Idle: ~13.2V
Running 3k: ~12.2V
Running 5k: ~12.6V
Running 7k+: ~13V

The voltage was actually highest at idle.

So, I'm thinking a new battery may be needed.

 

[ozgurakman]

So I ran it in the garage some with the multimeter connected to see what kind of voltages I'm getting. I tested it directly off the battery (using the SAE tender lead) and I'll test using the R/R under the seat when I get time, hopefully later tonight (holiday with family is cutting my testing short). Findings:

Fresh off the charger, bike off: 13.00V
Bike On: ~12.1V
Starting: Drops to ~9V
Running Idle: ~13.2V
Running 3k: ~12.2V
Running 5k: ~12.6V
Running 7k+: ~13V

The voltage was actually highest at idle.

So, I'm thinking a new battery may be needed.

I would test the battery load.

Your bike's R/R may be dying as well. Voltage drops when revving is the clue but you should test the R/R from it's socket. Also, electrical system should be not loaded (no taillight and no headlight) when testing. bike should be warmed for the true voltage reading at idle.

If your R/R is going to die, buy an later FH012 or similar mosfet R/R from R1 or another bike. It's realy worthwhile upgrade.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Partially agree...

The battery should sit for at least an hour after charging to stablize.

The battery load drop while cranking is likely toast.

Test at the VR for charging voltage but it should about 14volts or so. 12 volts charging (unless you have heated gear plugged in, turned on, etc) is too low...

 

[FinalImpact]

It looks like battery is low from the get go and I say this because it **appears to be** taking a charge. However, it needs more than the bike can give it. CHARGE IT and it may be fine!

Batteries charge with current (AMPS), but only when they are above their minimum voltage ~12.72 volts (2.12V per Cell). So, what you see when rev'ing the engine is the charging system taking Watts of energy and dividing it. The bike has ~300 watts total output. Approximately 2/3 of this is needed just to maintain the vehicles electrical system at an operational state.
- A low battery state takes current or AMPS of energy to "refill it/restore charge".
- When the battery is nearing a discharged state, it is current in "amps" that charge it, not voltage.
- From a **SYSTEM** Stand point; When the CURRENT demand is high (charging that low battery), the system voltage Will be low. Its a math thing but we have limits on how much energy we have to give (300 watts).
- When there is NO current demand, thats when you see the higher battery voltages. When reading you will see words like; crescent voltage and float voltage. Once the battery is at like ~87% charged, its rate of current consumption drops and most chargers then maintain a "Float Voltage" around 14.3 volts or so.

- So, just because a system does not show a high voltage i.e. greater than 13.8V, that doesn't mean any part of the system is defective. Its **very likely** means the battery is taking a charge as its condition is below optimal charge wise.

Charge the battery with a real charger that outputs at least 2.0 amps, 4.0 max and repeat that same test. Charge time could be 4 to 10 hours depending on the charger rate and battery state. Now allow battery to enter float or maintenance charge state (~6 hours at higher voltage, lower current). Disconnect and allow the battery to sit for at least one hour but 4 hours is the suggested interval. Read the voltage. Ideally it should be around 12.95 to 13.00 at room temperature.

Battery 3 states:
1) A fully charged battery will read high voltage and Start the vehicle. It will pass load testing. Unlike #3 which may show a high V, but its depth of charge is to low to start the vehicle.

2) A battery with a low depth of charge could show a very low voltage. That low battery will take current (Amps) to charge. Its voltage will start off lower, but peak or show a crescent when its done taking current and the voltage rises.

3A) A battery with lots of charge cycles may have worn out plates. These batteries may show a high voltage, but under load, fail to start the vehicle. They have sign - they do NOT DRAW CURRENT when being charged. A Volt meter on these batteries likely reads a very high voltage but they are junk! Note: A Current meter is useful as it shows how many amps we are putting into our 10 Amp/hour battery.
3B) Too much trickle charging = sulfated plates. If lots of current is applied to these batteries, they may just make heat but never charge and not retain a depth of charge. They are also junk - but some can be reclaimed. If you need to know how, ask/

taggered JJD952 - Electrical

 

[MasterOfPupets]

Thanks for all the advice. Little update:

Never got around to testing it under the seat at the RR yesterday. My wife is having some car issues so I had to take the bike to work today. I figured it would be ok fresh off the charger and I'd just keep the revs high.

Bike seams to run smooth over 5k RPMs, but is really iffy at idle. Also, I brought my charger with me just in case and when I get to work it was dead. Wouldn't even crank dead. I've got it sitting on the charger now, so hopefully I'll get enough of a charge through the day to get it started and then I can pull the battery and get it tested once I make it home. I'm leaning heavily towards the battery being toast, my only concern is that after I replace the battery it will mask another issue, so hopefully I'll get to do some troubleshooting on the RR and such afterwards to make sure everything else is good.

 

[MasterOfPupets]

And turns out I'm an idiot somehow. Bike wouldn't start when I went to leave work. Got pissed and decided that while waiting for a ride home I'd pull the battery. Got the tank up and found the negative terminal was loose. Apparently I cross threaded it in the nut and didn't notice it wasn't tight, so the vibration from the bike was causing it to lose contact. Tightened that properly and the bike fired right up and runs great again. I'm going to dig into checking the electrical system after this week. Hopefully everything is good I'm just an idiot though

 

[Davo81]

So, I had a weird issue when I took my bike out yesterday for a couple hours. A bit of background:

Run a Battery Tender Junior on the bike for about 2 months to get ready for the season. Also installed a USB port so I could charge my phone/use it as a GPS.

Bike starts out running fine and I plug my phone in and go. Most of the roads I'm riding on are low speed limit (30 or 35 mph) so my revs stay pretty low the whole time since this is just a nice leisurely ride to knock the dust off. I'd say most of the time I'm running at about 3000 RPM in third gear. Probably about 2 hours in at a stop on a hill the bike stalls (could have been my fault, but I don't think it was) so I start it again and take off. Then the bike starts acting funny. At my normal low-RPM cruising speed it starts running very choppy, like the cylinders are missing. When I get on the gas a little it seams to have no problems, but at a cruising speed I can't maintain a good speed, it just feels like I'm bouncing the throttle when I know I'm not. The check engine light also comes on any time I come to a light and sit and idle.

So, needless to say I found the fastest way home once this started happening.

Got the bike home and checked the code for the check engine light. Comes up as Code 46. I google it and found on here that it is a problem with electrical for the FI system, usually a charging issue. So, I parked it and plugged in the Tender. Showed a red light (meaning less that 80% charge) and I walked away to let it charge. Came back a few hours later and he tender had a blinking red light (meaning it wasn't charging for some reason.) I was confused but went ahead and unplugged the tender and let it sit for a while since I was working on something else in the garage. After about an hour, I figured I'd plug it in again and see what happens. Damn thing started charging again (solid red) so I let it be. About an hour later I came back and it was blinking Green (over 80%) and this morning it is showing solid green (charged) and I fired it up. Seams to be idling fine again.

I plan on taking it out some this weekend since the weather should be nice and seeing if I run into the same issue without the phone plugged in.

My question:
I know people say that the bike actually doesn't start running off the Stator until it hits a higher RPM (4000ish if I'm not mistaken) but would running it the way I did with a phone charging really run the battery down that quickly? I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is with the components (battery not holding a proper charge, Stator not properly charging) or with my riding (cruising at 3000RPM, never going above 6000 - Pussy riding since I really don't want to hear it from my wife if I get a ticket.)

Any thoughts from the more experienced people out there? I do have a multimeter, but electrical isn't really my thing. Not sure what I should test for.

You have described EXACTLY what i experienced today... intermittent engine light, hesitation with throttle.. etc. etc etc. Got to the bottom of this thread and chuckled.. sometimes it's the simple things huh! AND i recently charged my battery over winter so it just might be that i, too, have improperly re-connected the terminal... hope so...I am going to check battery first thing tomorrow morning, otherwise i'm moving on to TPS checks...

 

[Motogiro]

Also there is an interesting bit of information on the original description in this thread. (2015) The OP mentions installing a USB plug on the bike. If the USB was installed on a switched circuit where the key controls whether it's active or not it will not be an issue but if the USB plug were installed on a non switched circuit (live all the time) it may draw a small amount of current at all times. If the bike is plugged into a tender the tender will be able to bring the battery to it's full charge state but out on the road the circuit will draw current even when the key is off unless it has been installed on a switched circuit.

This can take it's toll on a battery.

 

[motojoe122]

I've had my cig plug for my GPS straight to the battery since I've owned the bike, never had an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Davo81]

Boom!! I found the negative battery terminal cable was loose... so glad i found this place, thanks guys.

PS the reason it was loose is because I had put charging 'minder' cables with these little eyelets that sit under the terminal clamps and obviously didn't get it tight enough when re-sitting the clamps.. sheesh the things a loose terminal can do

 

[Motogiro]

I've had my cig plug for my GPS straight to the battery since I've owned the bike, never had an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes the cig socket is not a problem because you have no active 5 volt vdc regulator. A USB plug has active electronics that can draw current when run direct to the battery.

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[motojoe122]

Yes the cig socket is not a problem because you have no active 5 volt vdc regulator. A USB plug has active electronics that can draw current when run direct to the battery.

Sent from Moto's Motorola

Oh, I didn't know that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Boom!! I found the negative battery terminal cable was loose... so glad i found this place, thanks guys.

PS the reason it was loose is because I had put charging 'minder' cables with these little eyelets that sit under the terminal clamps and obviously didn't get it tight enough when re-sitting the clamps.. sheesh the things a loose terminal can do

I never had a problem with it coming loose (and I'm probably lighter on the wrench than others).

**With that said, I put just a touch of red loctite on the battery nuts and snug down**.

It won't go anywhere... :thumbup:

 

[FinalImpact]

There is a drop in option to pick up a switched source for phones and USB items. It plugs in and is fused to a value of your choice. Although I would not exceed a 12Amp rating.

In this case it is running my fuel controller and data logger which requires heating a wideband O2 sensor... No problems in 3 years...

Item is $5 to 10 depending on where you buy it and comes with an assortment of fuses and a butt connector.

Item is: Bussman BP/HHH-RP

FUSED SOLUTION to Switched Source

 

[ANLR21]

We've all been there. We won't talk about how long it took me to figure out the weird noise in my car after replacing brakes was the bent coat hanger I had used to hold the caliper while changing the pads and had forgotten to remove.

Duh

 

[FinalImpact]

:shakehead::rof::don'tknow:

We've all been there. We won't talk about how long it took me to figure out the weird noise in my car after replacing brakes was the bent coat hanger I had used to hold the caliper while changing the pads and had forgotten to remove.

Duh

Along those lines.... when I was 13 or so I patched a leaking tube in a 31 x 15.5 x 15 Goodyear Terra Tire on our Corvair powered rail (dune buggy). When done I went on a test drive down the highway and the damned tire was jumping off the ground at 35mph... waaaaaaay out of balance....

Popped the bead off, pulled the tube to find I'd left a short tire iron inside (threw tube in and hid it)!
Oh the the look on my face! :tard: :shakehead::shakehead::spank:
:bow::bow:

Somehow it didnt puncture the tube.... :thumbup: