Do anti-lock brakes = anti-stop?

[Goop]

I was flipping through Cycle World magazine and there was a question that was submitted to the Service Q&A section, the premise of which follows...

On surfaces such as very bumpy, gravel, rumble strips or series of speed bumps...is having an ABS more of a hinderance than it is helpful? Some argue that using ABS on these types of surfaces is like not having any brakes at all; a locked wheel is better. If a bike has ABS, the manufacturer should equip it with a switch to disable ABS if needed, similar to some dual-sport bikes.

I've never experienced riding on a bike that has ABS so I have no opinion. What do our ABS-equipped FZ6 forum members think of this, or anyone who has ABS now or in the past on their bikes?

Discuss

 

[spock]

I have a naked fz6 2008 model with ABS, I bought her brand new on december 2008 so I have been riding it for two years and 45000 kms

The ABS has never been a problem while riding and I have ridden my bike in a lot of different road surfaces, both dry, wet, paved, unpaved, etc and our local roads are not exactly tracks so bumps are pretty common everywhere.

I consider I have a good braking technique and a proof of that has to be that the ABS does not get activated whenever I brake, and sometimes is hard with no ABS getting activated at all.

When I have to ride the fz6 "off road" I take it easy because of two reasons:
1. it's not a ds, mx or enduro bike
2. I am not a dirt rider
so no problems at all off the road.

on the other side the ABS has saved both my girl and me in two ocassions:

- the first one we were traveling at high speed and suddenly a pretty big dog almost of the size of a calf decided to jump onto the road, that was totally unexpected and my immediate reaction was panic braking at both ends and the system did his job flawlessly, we stopped perfectly without touching the animal or loosing control of the bike, just the scary and oh sh** moment.

- the second one I was coming home from work, late at night, the road was completely wet and from nowhere a cab without any rear light was in front of me, since I had no time or space to change my position I grabbed both brakes activating the system and I stopped perfectly and safe, no slides, no undesired movements nothing of that, only once again the scary and oh sh** moment.

When the ABS gets activated you can feel the vibration on the levers and a kind of "forth and back or down and up" movement of the bike - sorry I don't really know how to describe it -, I would say it feels something like a damn fast "it's braking it's not braking, it's braking it's not braking and so on".

Fortunately when I got the bike I was curious enough to test hard braking to activate the system on both dry and wet so the feeling was not new to me or my girl.

Just my personal opinions and experiences.

Cheers.

 

[Red Wazp]

+1 to what Spock said so well!
I have ABS on my FJR and love it, helps brake faster and harder when you really really really need it.
ABS can be a problem for dirt bikes when you are on gravel and really rough surfaces but for a street bike the plus of having ABS totally out weighs any negative you may hear.
It just sucks we can't get anti lock on our FZ's in the US.

 

[seb101]

I had riden suzuki bandit 600 for year and a half without ABS and after that i've started riding fz6 s2 with ABS of my gf's to compare the both (even tho fz has way better brakes then bandit had) i heaven't had any problems with riding fz6 with abs in deep sand/forest fire roads or such, i usually use rear brake on these or try to engine brake not to cause more hasle then it's needed In theory braking in loose gravel/sand or such is more efficient without ABS but additional abs doesn't do that much harm if you're not trying to make enduro bike out of fz, just take it easy, it doesn't have suspension for that neither it has tires for it lol

 

[lomax]

I have had many bikes with ABS and absolutely love it. ON the road that is.

I did have a very fun indecent on my BMW R1150GS one time descending a wet grassy hill. Of course on the wet grass traction was not very good and the ABS thought the wheels were locking up and kept releasing the brakes. It was a fast ride down that hill for sure.

Had I the forethought to turn the ABS off before attempting this feat things would have turned out much better.

So I agree with the original poster. ABS is a great thing to have on the road but I firmly believe you should be able to turn it off when in slick conditions.

Marc

 

[Davey]

Yes as everyone has said, ABS on the road is good. It's a strange feeling when it kicks in (which has only happened once or twice with me - so far!), kind of like a pulsing vibration. HOWEVER, this was all in a straight line. I am not sure how well you would cope going around a corner/leaning right over - the pulsing may cause a loss of traction or at least a lot of squirming? Has anyone experienced non straight line ABS braking?

It's not like in a car where the purpose is to enable you to continue to steer when braking heavily to avoid losing traction and going into a skid.

Off road dual sports, such as the BMW GS 1250 give you the option to switch it off for gravel or other slippery surfaces. But if you watch top motorcross or supercross riders it's amazing the braking ability they have! After a huge jump over a triple, where you have a short landing straight into a corner, they make it stick on the brakes! Impressive stuff!

 

[wolfe1down]

I have ABS on my FJR and love it, helps brake faster and harder when you really really really need it.

It was my understanding that ABS on any platform actually increased stopping distance, even though an operator is able to maintain better control throughout the process...

 

[chunkygoat]

ABS = deathtrap

my friends swear by it, I however, despise it. My foot does the same motion, at my own discretion. Something about entrusting a computer's judgment seems to urk me out. I feel like my judgment is better than the ABS system, and I can pump my brakes like no computer ever could.

If you're the type to slam your foot on the brake and hold it to the floor if the time calls for it - then ABS is probably for you.

If you're the type of person who understands a locked brake does you no good, and can instinctively PUMP your own brakes intermittently when the time calls, then you probably want to steer clear of ABS.

Think about it this way - if you have never driven manual transmission - you will probably think automatic is the way to go - because its easier and simpler. Once you've driven manual, for me at least, you realize how much more control you have over your vehicle. Its the same thing, but for brakes. ABS is easier and simpler, just mash your foot on the brake and you're good! but I feel you achieve better braking potential by not having ABS - granted you understand how to USE your brakes.

So if you are a beginner driver, ABS would most likely be a great feature. If you are experiencede, and know how you would react in situations, then ABS will only get in your way.

 

[lomax]

ABS = deathtrap

my friends swear by it, I however, despise it. My foot does the same motion, at my own discretion. Something about entrusting a computer's judgment seems to urk me out. I feel like my judgment is better than the ABS system, and I can pump my brakes like no computer ever could.

I agree with you 100% with only one exception. If and when you (speaking to the entire forum not you personally) have that panic mode stop that has to be made as if your life depends on it, as we all will at some time, then ABS can be a real life saver.

It is kind of like that commercial on TV that in an accident the best thing to do is shut off the car, unlock the doors, and turn on the flashers. Yes given the time that is the thing to do but in the micro seconds that reality takes you cannot function that quickly.

This is why I am all for ABS systems that can be turned off so that the rider can decide the advantages and risks involved in doing so.

As to the question of stopping distance using ABS vs. not using it, I think that really depends on the traction situation. With decent traction I would believe that ABS would get you stopped quicker. In lower traction situations it might be a toss up. In very low traction situations I think the human is better equipped to handle it than the computer. DAMHIK. I don't actually have the data to back this up and it is just my own personal opinion.

Marc

 

[wolfe1down]

According to Wikipedia (and the references cited therein) a modern ABS controlled vehicle is able to stop in 'good' traction (ie. concrete, asphalt, pavement, etc.) as fast or faster than a non-ABS controlled vehicle and with a statistically higher chance of avoiding an accident.

In 'bad' traction environments (ie. snow, sand, mud, etc.) ABS controlled vehicles actually increase the distance required to stop... Although Wikipedia states there are some vehicles (no examples) that have an off-road ABS capability that slows down the brake/release sequences to allow the wheel(s) to plow in like non-ABS systems...

Interesting stuff :thumbup:

Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[seb101]

Yes as everyone has said, ABS on the road is good. It's a strange feeling when it kicks in (which has only happened once or twice with me - so far!), kind of like a pulsing vibration. HOWEVER, this was all in a straight line. I am not sure how well you would cope going around a corner/leaning right over - the pulsing may cause a loss of traction or at least a lot of squirming? Has anyone experienced non straight line ABS braking?

It's not like in a car where the purpose is to enable you to continue to steer when braking heavily to avoid losing traction and going into a skid.

Off road dual sports, such as the BMW GS 1250 give you the option to switch it off for gravel or other slippery surfaces. But if you watch top motorcross or supercross riders it's amazing the braking ability they have! After a huge jump over a triple, where you have a short landing straight into a corner, they make it stick on the brakes! Impressive stuff!

It would really be risky to try get ABS working with any lean angle (less contact patch between rubber and asphalt), chances are that it's gonna skid right from you before abs kicks in.

 

[616ah]

I see major safety advantages to ABS in the bike world, although I have not owned a bike so equiped - yet. I suspect the sensation of not being able to stop quickly as you thought during an ABS stop might be unsettling, although in theory it should take major skill to out brake a WELL DESIGNED system. Remembering for the most part the outer limits of safe braking are not all that far from insanity in normal use.

One thing that I notice in automotive is the major variation in system performance. Simple things can have a profound effect on ABS function for good or bad. Some systems hide it better, some don't... In the end it all comes down to transmitting tire grip and managing friction, who programed the black box, and for what...

So I'm in when the opportunity presents at reasonable cost... Not sure how I value that yet...

 

[lomax]

I found this interesting.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA8zk_zkdyE&feature=related]YouTube - Antilocks significantly reduce motorcycle crashes[/ame]

Marc

 

[Goop]

I found this interesting.


Marc

Neat video! :thumbup:

 

[wolfe1down]

Awesome vid! I'm sure there are a few people who could/would benefit from those skid wheels (myself included) :BLAA:

 

[Norbert]

You all are missing the point entirely!
We have to install those catfish-like training wheels on our bikes!

 

[lomax]

You all are missing the point entirely!
We have to install those catfish-like training wheels on our bikes!

:rof: That would be a hoot, Training wheels for all.

Marc

 

[Davey]

For braking in a straight line on very wet tarmac, my opinion is that ABS will out-brake almost any experienced rider on a non-ABS equipped bike. For me this is really the MOST useful application of the technology.

There may be a few supermen out there who can beat ABS, but it'll be during a test, where they are prepared to brake at a certain point and fully ready for it. On the road this isn't realistic at all. You have less than seconds to decide if you brake, brake harder/less, steer to avoid what's in front of you, avoid what's in the lanes next to you if you do decide to steer, is the guy behind you going to stop in time? etc etc etc....

If you are a good rider you should be leaving enough distance to stop safely in whatever conditions you are in, and have total road awareness anyway. It takes such a small fraction of a second for multiple things to happen.

All the ABS 'tests' focus on slamming on the brakes when you reach a cone, measuring the braking distance in a straight line, and indicating the difference between with ABS and without. But what if you HAVE TO stop within a certain distance or you smash into the vehicle/bicycle/pedestrian in front of you?

It's useful, but it's not an excuse for not practicing emergency stops, or thinking you can ride closer to the vehicle in front as your ABS will save you etc.

Off road, it seems obvious that ABS isn't going to help. Locking/spinning the rear wheel can be an effective steering technique! Use you engine braking to control speed on a decent.

 

[Motogiro]

I found this interesting.

YouTube - Antilocks significantly reduce motorcycle crashes

Marc

It's interesting that he continuously cranks the forks hard to the right for the demo when he doesn't use the ABS. He should also do that with the ABS.
No doubt the ABS will be superior in that scenario but I think the marketing team got involved (as they usually do) in a scientific standard.
Try cranking your fork to hard lock and lay on your tank!

I think if the ABS works in any straight on panic brake it's worth every penny and obviously it does. Don't want it on your 4 wheel drive coming down 'Devil's Drop'

 

[Norbert]

We need Myth Busters to do this.