Cyl 1 & 4 = no spark

@nders

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Hi, yes sorry for not updating you guys on the progress. Especially now that you have given me so much good feedback. I had the ECU checked out at MotoMatrix (I think that is their name) and the could tell me at it was indeed the ECU that was broken again (this is the second ECU this bike burns.
The damage was to the ground (inside the ECU), so before ordering a new ECU, just to break that one too, they advised me to check up on the following three points, as they believed that that is the cause of my ECU's breaking all the time.
  1. 1 The wire harness is broken somewhere, and causing the current to run (backwards):confused: So that a positive wire would turn into a negative wire, and wise versa. As I have said many times, I'm not good with electricity. But if this was the case, wouldn't first of all, my instruments panel show an error message, and second of all, if a wire breaks, something must be failing to work (horn, blinkers, light etc), and everything on the bike works. Except the 1 and 4 sparks ;)
  2. 2 A broken Reg/Rec that from time to time will send out to much current in the system and fry my ECU...
  3. 3 That I have a bad ground somewhere in my wire harness...

I don't know how plausible any of the above are, but I guess ordering a new reg/rec wont hurt.

/Anders






[MENTION=26612]@nders[/MENTION]

Any progress on this issue?
 

FinalImpact

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Hi, yes sorry for not updating you guys on the progress. Especially now that you have given me so much good feedback. I had the ECU checked out at MotoMatrix (I think that is their name) and the could tell me at it was indeed the ECU that was broken again (this is the second ECU this bike burns.
The damage was to the ground (inside the ECU), so before ordering a new ECU, just to break that one too, they advised me to check up on the following three points, as they believed that that is the cause of my ECU's breaking all the time.
  1. 1 The wire harness is broken somewhere, and causing the current to run (backwards):confused: So that a positive wire would turn into a negative wire, and wise versa. As I have said many times, I'm not good with electricity. But if this was the case, wouldn't first of all, my instruments panel show an error message, and second of all, if a wire breaks, something must be failing to work (horn, blinkers, light etc), and everything on the bike works. Except the 1 and 4 sparks ;)
  2. 2 A broken Reg/Rec that from time to time will send out to much current in the system and fry my ECU...
  3. 3 That I have a bad ground somewhere in my wire harness...

I don't know how plausible any of the above are, but I guess ordering a new reg/rec wont hurt.

/Anders

In my limited knowledge I would think that a shorted coil, faulty high tension lead from the coil, or excessive spark plug gap would be much higher on my list of probable causes. The ECU creates a path to ground for current (energy) to flow. The +12V battery power flows from the battery to the ignition switch, through the run switch, into the coils, and when the ECU clamps the path to system ground current flows through the coils. When the ground switch internal to the ECU opens, current stops flowing in the primary coil side and the field collapses. This collapse is what makes the energy for the secondary coil windings to make high voltage which goes to the spark plug. All of the relationships depend on each other.

If a coil is internally shorted, it would have less resistance, draw more current and induce a greater load on the ECU grounding switches and may cause them to fail. That said, it could feasibly function and run the engine but still damage the ECU over time. The same is true with Excessive Spark plug gap. It takes MORE ENERGY to jump a larger gap and this in itself could be a factor also. Granted, I find both of these unlikely, but they are possible.

Your Item #1, well, I can't wrap my head around that.
Your Item #2 can be verified with a volt meter applied to the battery and run the engine.
Your item #3, the run stop switch if intermittent could potentially induce energy spikes on the coils primary side and lead to ECU damage. I would think the engine would be dying and running very portly for some time and it would let you know it has issues, long before the ECU dies from this failure mode.


I don't know what it would cost to ship a defective part across the world, but dang, I would like to open it and see what happened. Lets talk about this!

Bottom line:
Clean and inspect run/stop switch.
Verify spark plugs are indeed resistor plugs. cR9e cR9ek etc. Remove spark plugs and replace.
Verify gap is LESS than OEM MAXIMUM! IIRC 0.7mm / 0.028" is max gap
Verify coil impedance or replace coil. If its at the low end of the spec, I would replace it.
Verify spark plug caps have 10K ohm +/-500 ohms. I would open and inspect each one. Clean with contact cleaner.


Ignition coil
Model/manufacturer JO383/DENSO
Minimum ignition spark gap 0.6 mm (0.024 in)
Primary coil resistance 1.53–2.07 Ω at 20°C (68°F)
Secondary coil resistance 12.0–18.0 kΩ at 20°C (68°F)

Verify spark plug caps have 10K ohm +/-500 ohms. I would open and inspect each one. Clean with contact cleaner. Note: Ceramic resistor inside. The combined resistance of the cap and spark plug (~5kohm) limit the current through the coil and control EMI.
DSC_9014_zpsd122wjmm.jpg
 

@nders

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Thank you, the ignition coils did check a little under min. according to workshop manual, but I disregarded this from using a cheap multimeter. But I think two new ignition coils would probably be in its place. The Bike has done close to 80.000 km so guess it is about time anyway.
I asked him to just through it out (ECU), but will call tomorrow and see if he should still have it somewhere, then I will send it to you, although I doubt it :)
To answer the three possible caused above.
  1. 1 Me either..
  2. 2 If I test it at 5.000 RPM and it is fine (approx 14-15 volts) can I be sure that it will also be fine, up until the rev. limiter?
  3. 3 When the engine ran, it was working/running perfectly, so doubt that it is a intermittent kill switch..

The bike is currently at my parents, so it will take some time before it get to check the spark plug resisters.

/Anders
 

alexfabian

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Hi, i had this fault at the end of last year. i spent about two weeks trying to figure out what the problem was. In the end i narrowed it down to the ECU. A company called MotoMatrix sorted me a used reset ECU. I would highly recommend them.

let me know if I can be of any other help.

Alex
 

@nders

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Okay, so after a long break away from the Fazer, I finally came around to give it another go.
I turns out that the (surprise) ECU of the Fazer S1 and possible S2 are very weak when it come to the current running through them. That mean that when the ignition coils slowly over time looses their resistance, aka dropping outside their specifications, the current through the ECU will be stronger, and this will slowly fry the ECU. So if you got a refurbished ECU, make sure to get completely new ignition coils, not used ones off eBay ;)
I was lucky to find a company called Carmo Electronics in Nederland, who specializes in these ECU Carmo Electronics, The place for parts or electronics for your Motorbike Quad Scooter Car or Jetski.
They opened it up for me, reinforced it, so that it is now much "stronger" than the stock one, and sold me two new coils for half the price of the original ones. I have so far done 5.000 km with this new set-up without any problems :)

/Anders
 

@nders

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Hi [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION] sorry for the long wait.
So short story, the FZ6 has a rare weakness in its ECU, that when the ignition coils start to go bad (i.e. the resistance in them drops), they will allow more current to run through the ECU. As I said the ECU is not build to withstand this and thus will fail.
I found a small company in Holland that will open up the ECU and repair and strengthen it so that the problem won't happen again. So I guess the lesson is, change your coils in time :)

Link to the company:
https://www.carmo.nl/




[MENTION=26612]@nders[/MENTION]

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Motogiro

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Re: Cyl 1 & 4 = no spark

Hi [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION] sorry for the long wait.
So short story, the FZ6 has a rare weakness in its ECU, that when the ignition coils start to go bad (i.e. the resistance in them drops), they will allow more current to run through the ECU. As I said the ECU is not build to withstand this and thus will fail.
I found a small company in Holland that will open up the ECU and repair and strengthen it so that the problem won't happen again. So I guess the lesson is, change your coils in time :)

Link to the company:
https://www.carmo.nl/

Thank you for the information on the switching transistors. I've always assumed there were switching transistors for the coil operation but did not know if they were serviceable.
Anyone have an old or toasted ECU they'd volunteer to send me? I'd like to see if it would be possible for forum members to repair that section using better rated transistors.
That does seem to be the common failure.
 
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FinalImpact

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Are the failed ones having anti-theft?
USA didnt get this and few fail.

I have a spare ecu i was using for flash testing but I'd rather not open it. Although I did drill a hole in it for test point access... =)
 

Nelly

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Re: Cyl 1 & 4 = no spark



Thank you for the information on the switching transistors. I've always assumed there were switching transistors for the coil operation but did not know if they were serviceable.
Anyone have an old or toasted ECU they'd volunteer to send me? I'd like to see if it would be possible for forum members to repair that section using better rated transistors.
That does seem to be the common failure.
Hi Cliff,
Do you think you would be able to repair the ECU if I sent it to you or are you just looking for one to open and see what lies within?
 

Motogiro

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Hi Cliff,
Do you think you would be able to repair the ECU if I sent it to you or are you just looking for one to open and see what lies within?
I don't have a bike to test it with anymore and If it does have serviceable transistors I could test and replace them if they were bad but probably not worth the effort of shipping across the pond.
Hope you and your family are weathering the storm.
 

Nelly

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Ignition, intermittent loss of firing on cylinders 1 & 4.
I am still trying to find out if the USA CDI would plug and play.
 

Nelly

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I don't have a bike to test it with anymore and If it does have serviceable transistors I could test and replace them if they were bad but probably not worth the effort of shipping across the pond.
Hope you and your family are weathering the storm.
Were all good here Cliff,
Where I work in the country hasn't had many cases yet.
We are still waiting for it to kick off.
You stay safe too.
 

Motogiro

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Were all good here Cliff,
Where I work in the country hasn't had many cases yet.
We are still waiting for it to kick off.
You stay safe too.

Hope this virus thing calms down. I remember you were in healthcare.
We've doubled our new cases in a week here.
If it was cheap to ship the ECU here I would take a look at it. Hopefully the coil switching transistors are accessible and I could replace the blown one with a better rated unit. The other part of the problem could be somewhere else in the ECU that is causing the issue.
What I do suggest is make sure the coil primary is not the issue. Although the primary may ring out okay with an ohm meter it might fail under the load. The other consideration could be a secondary high voltage leak within the coils that transfers to the low voltage primary winding that would knock out the new ECU. That would be terrible so maybe consider coil replacements. I would hope that the design of the ECU would provide shunting of any high voltage that could leak to the primary. Possibly MOVs (metal oxide varistors)
 

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Hope this virus thing calms down. I remember you were in healthcare.
We've doubled our new cases in a week here.
If it was cheap to ship the ECU here I would take a look at it. Hopefully the coil switching transistors are accessible and I could replace the blown one with a better rated unit. The other part of the problem could be somewhere else in the ECU that is causing the issue.
What I do suggest is make sure the coil primary is not the issue. Although the primary may ring out okay with an ohm meter it might fail under the load. The other consideration could be a secondary high voltage leak within the coils that transfers to the low voltage primary winding that would knock out the new ECU. That would be terrible so maybe consider coil replacements. I would hope that the design of the ECU would provide shunting of any high voltage that could leak to the primary. Possibly MOVs (metal oxide varistors)
Cheers Cliff,
I have purchased new coils as this would have been the easy and cheap fix. No luck I'm afraid.
I would really like to know if I could buy a USA ECU and plug and play.

Nelly
 

Motogiro

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Cheers Cliff,
I have purchased new coils as this would have been the easy and cheap fix. No luck I'm afraid.
I would really like to know if I could buy a USA ECU and plug and play.

Nelly
I have not seen a schematic for the immobilizer interface so I don't know if there is difference. If the immobilizing ocurres at the Ignition switch assembly you would then get the US ECU and Ignition switch assembly.
 

Nelly

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I have not seen a schematic for the immobilizer interface so I don't know if there is difference. If the immobilizing ocurres at the Ignition switch assembly you would then get the US ECU and Ignition switch assembly.
Would this schematic be in the wiring diagram?
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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Just an FYI.

I mail my helmet lock brackets all over the world via USPS. Shipping slow speed is really not expensive at all (when sent by an individual). Fed Ex is easily 10X'S that amount..

If mailed by a company, they tack on fee's likely for filling out the Customs forms.. If it cost more than $15.00, I'd really be surprised..
 
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