Burning through r/r's yet battery, stator & connections are all good. What's going on?

[IheartValentino]

I have an '07 FZ6R at 16k mi. Out of the blue it stalled/died while at idle after 130 mi of riding -- CEL came on, the digital display went black then the bike died. Had to bump start it (on back mountain roads and no help available) and turned it off (using kill switch, key, & kickstand kill switch) and restarted it a few time on the way home without issue. Got it home and the next morning it wouldn't restart. Battery completely drained.
Recharged the battery and was good for another 100 mi when the same thing happened -- CEL, digital goes dead, bike stalls. This time it was in the middle of a busy city street -- huge safety issue. Had it towed to the local Yammy dealership's service dept. They diagnosed the regulator/rectifier had been burned out. They tested the stator and battery, checked for corrosion and loose wires and everything else looked good. Replaced the r/r, recharged the battery.
A few days later I took a nice 300 mi ride and the same thing happened! Thankfully it was just as I was pulling into my driveway when it died. Towed it back to the dealership. They said the r/r was bad again! Replaced it (under warranty), recharged the battery, did a systems check again and said stator, battery, and all connections were still good. They added a small, digital constant voltmeter connected to my battery so that I could watch the voltage (amperage?) as I ride.
Fresh from the mechanics I had a reading of 12.8-13.4 riding freeway speeds (6.5-7k rpm) for 30 mins. Turned it off for approx 1hr. Road another 20 mins at freeway speeds and the readings were about the same.
Parked it at home for 3 days and checked the voltmeter each morning...
Day 1 = 13.0
Day 2 = 12.7
Day 3 = 12.4
Day 4 = voltmeter dead, battery dead.
The bike is back at the mechanics. Everything is stock (no electrical accessories) except the battery which is a lithium ion high performance battery (9 mos old).
I've seen some other threads in which the rider had similar stalling issues but they seem to have been resolved with replacing stator, battery, or r/r -- But has anyone had something keep frying their rr?
Any experience with the lithium batteries causing electrical issues?

 

[Erci]

First of all, :welcome:

As I mentioned on FB, this is THE best place to get your questions answered.. not to mentioned one of the friendliest forums out there.. full of great people :thumbup:

Help will be along shortly ( I suggested on FB that it may be a stator issue, but pros will be able to give you much better advice with info on how to troubleshoot it )

 

[Motogiro]

:welcome: to our great family!

Interesting. The RR has to dissipate heat doing two different jobs. One job is rectification for charging the battery and the other is shunt regulation.

Hopefully your battery is not lithium ion and is lithium iron phosphate or LiFePO4. They are different chemical makeup and behave differently under different conditions. The regulator part of the RR unit is a shunt type, meaning once a voltage threshold has been reached it conducts current being produce by the stator by creating a load which becomes heat. This basically means that the stator and it's rectifier section is never at rest but instead always under load and making heat.

I don't have a component breakdown of the RR so I couldn't guess if the shunt sees the battery topped off, possibly at higher voltage than say an AGM battery and is possibly conducting even with the key off. This might put the battery at a disadvantaged state for it's required static voltage and it fails holding it's charge prematurely. One site I visited only guarantees these these batteries for start only application and does not guarantee them for normal service. If the bike is kept with a specified tender for that type battery it may be fine for a couple of days use with out being tender maintained. I believe Erci has a Shorai (Sp?) and wonder if he keeps it on a tender.

It could be this battery exhibits an intermittent malfunction and is defective.
The voltages don't sound bad but I think your highway voltages should be near 13.9 - 14 VDC at 7k rpm. Lower voltage may indicate the internal resistance of the battery is lower than normal and not reaching the top off voltage.

Is there a way you could barrow a known good AGM battery to see if battery is at fault?



I hope we can help solve your dilemma.

Still that does not explain multiple RR failures. It does suggest an overheating of the RR for some reason. One reason the RR can fail quickly is if the bike is jump started from a car while the car engine is running. Did this condition occur?

 

[iviyth0s]

yeah I'd say try a different battery just for kicks since it seems like your lithium battery may not be playing well with the stock charging system? It's worth a shot anyway, maybe there's a forum member nearby you who can let you borrow theirs

Also, :welcome: hopefully you'll get the problem sorted and can better enjoy the bike and the community here

 

[FinalImpact]

Well said by all those before me!!! ^^

In this thread: "LEAKAGE CURRENT KILLING YOUR BATTERY??" http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=584217&postcount=10 i did something your shop needs to do as it doesn't sound like you have a hand held Multimeter! ^^ Test for loss (battery drain) while the bike is off!

If this were my problem I'd like to know "what" is wrong with the RR as those didn't seem to last long.

The thread mentioned uses a multimeter to test the draw or parasitic loss on the system while it is unattended. In some cases, batteries kill themselves from internal resistance (they consume energy from an internal load **internal resistance**) and in other cases its part of the vehicle which is drawing current.

Two easy ways to determine this are:
1) disconnect the battery from the vehicle. Charge it completely and monitor it. Does it loose voltage on its own?? A Lead Acid and these should last for months loosing very little voltage.
2) Break the circuit and measure the current drawn while everything is off.
If high current is observed, i.e. more than 0.001Amps, unplug the RR and see if the current drops.

Read the thread and ask questions. We can help you form a proper question for you mechanic from we you tell us.

I do have to wonder if the shunt regulator internal to the RR is tricking the charger into reporting the battery as fully charged when in fact the battery has never reached a "float voltage" due to its type.

I'd be all in favor and fully support the idea to install and typical LAB for testing. Because the RR should not be dying unless the bike was jump started by running care. Pick up at post # 6 to read about that and basics on how the system works. http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...mpact-trouble-shooting-maintenance-guide.html

 

[Monica A]

Hello Dana, Rich recommends the mechanic at Moto Source in Sparks. He says he is really good (better than mechanics at Michael's). I can give you the receipt for the battery if you want to see about replacing it under warranty. Rich is leaning towards battery is bad. I never had any problems with the bike. I feel so bad that this started after you bought my bike. We originally replaced the battery because of it's age and once the battery died on me when I left the key on for 5 plus minutes. That was the only time I every bump started it. The battery charged and worked fine the rest of that trip. Again, I feel very bad you are having problems with Valentino. Monica

 

[FinalImpact]

Hello Dana, Rich recommends the mechanic at Moto Source in Sparks. He says he is really good (better than mechanics at Michael's). I can give you the receipt for the battery if you want to see about replacing it under warranty. Rich is leaning towards battery is bad. I never had any problems with the bike. I feel so bad that this started after you bought my bike. We originally replaced the battery because of it's age and once the battery died on me when I left the key on for 5 plus minutes. That was the only time I every bump started it. The battery charged and worked fine the rest of that trip. Again, I feel very bad you are having problems with Valentino. Monica

Most Excellent ^^! More info helps and thanks for sharing!
I'd venture to guess the battery is at fault and it kills itself bike or no bike.

 

[Plymothian]

I'm a noob when it comes to electrics, but worth a mention anyway. Did you buy a new battery after you fitted the new RR? I had my RR burn out, but I didn't realise it was the RR until after about 150 miles of riding. Consequently, I blew a couple of bulbs and totally fried my new battery (as it was being way over-charged when riding). This does not explain how/why your RR's are failing so often, but I'd be putting a new battery in just to eliminate the battery variable.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I can tell you for certainty, on the Yamaha outboard engines (I know, a whole different breed- but a stator and VR system similar to the FZ), the lithium batteries are NOT RECOMMENDED for use with their engines.

The question came up about which battery to use and one of the forum members, a MASTER TECH, 35 years experiance (Rodbolt-he's in MANY OB forums and knows his stuff). Yamaha Outboard Forum - Yamaha Outboard Parts Forum

Apparently some differences between a wet battery and the lithium do NOT get along and you'll likely have issues with your charging system..

I've never heard of a charging system failure with a lithium on a bike, but, I would put in a stocker and eliminate that potential issue. Perhaps theres too much voltage for the battery to accept, then its then sent to the VR where then its fried...

And your voltages while underway are definitly too low.

If you check them (charging voltage) at the VR directly (just stopped and running), I bet you see a big difference in charging voltage vs at the battery(at their gauge which is likely hooked up to the battery. ...

 

[Wildcat_drvr]

I picked up a copy of Kitplanes magazine,June issue.
It had an article on lithium batterys.
Stated that an aircraft can only charge a lithium battery to70-80%.
??? IDK ???
Most Home-built aircraft use automotive alternators.
Makes me wonder why a lithium can't be fully charged with alternator.
Article stated special charger is needed for full charge.
I'm officially confused.
Not that it takes much.

Rich