Battery, stator, or rectifier/regulator?

[OneCheekRider]

Been having intermittent starting issues since I started riding this season. I replaced the original battery in November and had no issues when I put the bike away at the end of December. I do use grip heaters and had the battery on a tender during storage.

I ride to work everyday and after a day or two the battery could not start the engine without help from the charger first thing in the morning.

Today, after letting it sit for the past 3 days due to rain/snow and cold temps, I expected a no start, but instead she fired right up. I then rode ~25 miles with my heaters at 100% and stopped to refuel. A quick refuel as it was cold and she wouldn't start again! I push started to finish my ride to work.

I thought I had a bad battery (still under warranty) but this mornings behavior seems really odd.

What do you think? Where should I look first?






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[Erci]

Try this: http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...ad-voltage-rectifier.html?highlight=rectifier

 

[OneCheekRider]

thanks, but link doesn't work for me?

 

[Erci]

thanks, but link doesn't work for me?

Yeah.. fixed. Try now

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I would gain access to your battery (SAE plug, etc if equipped).

With a volt meter, your battery should be around 12.8 volts sitting. While running, the voltage should go up above 12.8 to approx 14 volts at a max 5,000 RPM's if the system is indeed charging. Idle should be about 1,300 to break even or so with the charging system (without the grips on)..

The battery, especially new, should NOT be dying that quickly. You may very well have an excess draw while turned off (killing the battery)

Post #5: http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/49904-bike-wont-start-again.html#post547347

goes into detail if the charging system fails...

Has any new work been done to the bike just prior to the issues???

 

[OneCheekRider]

The battery, especially new, should NOT be dying that quickly. You may very well have an excess draw while turned off (killing the battery)

Has any new work been done to the bike just prior to the issues???

No work has been done before the issues. What I really don't understand is why the bike started this morning but wouldn't start after refueling. I'll dig out the voltmeter when i get home.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Erci]

No work has been done before the issues. What I really don't understand is why the bike started this morning but wouldn't start after refueling. I'll dig out the voltmeter when i get home.

Thanks for the tips!

Exactly! It does seem like there's something funky with the charging system and as you ride your battery drains. Because the battery is new, it can bounce back on its own over night.

But I must state this again, I'm awful at troubleshooting electrical issues.. so trust the capable folks to get you sorted (Cliff, Scott, Randy :thumbup: )

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Exactly! It does seem like there's something funky with the charging system and as you ride your battery drains. Because the battery is new, it can bounce back on its own over night.

But I must state this again, I'm awful at troubleshooting electrical issues.. so trust the capable folks to get you sorted (Cliff, Scott, Randy :thumbup: )

I'm not much better at electrical than you Erci... (Just the very basic's)...

When checking the voltage, check with the grips on also, especially at idle.

You may very well simply be running the battery down while stopped at a light, with the grips on, NOT charging the battery.

If the grip heaters stay on, while the engine is off, again, your killing off the battery and now it has to recover. Leaving the ignition on while gassing up (turned off with the kill switch), leaving the lights on, again an un-necessary battery draw.

A low, slow draw is the best way to kill off a battery permanently.

**For the rare times I run my heated vest and heated gloves, I turn them off when slowing or under approx 4,000 RPM's just so I'm not taxing the battery beyond its limits...

 

[FinalImpact]

No time for detail but post #6 http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...mpact-trouble-shooting-maintenance-guide.html

 

[OneCheekRider]

No time for detail but post #6 http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...mpact-trouble-shooting-maintenance-guide.html

That is one awesome write up!!! Thanks!

Measured the battery after work:

12.5v bike off
12.5v bike on at idle (~1300rpm)
13.5v bike at 5,000rpm

<11v and falling fast with bike off, grips on (100%)
11.2v bike at idle with grips on
12.2v bike at 5,000rpm with grips on


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[TownsendsFJR1300]

That is one awesome write up!!! Thanks!

Measured the battery after work:

12.5v bike off
12.5v bike on at idle (~1300rpm)
13.5v bike at 5,000rpm

<11v and falling fast with bike off, grips on (100%)
11.2v bike at idle with grips on
12.2v bike at 5,000rpm with grips on


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Looks like your charging system isn't the strongest but is working(13.5).

The grips are pulling way more current than the bikes producing (constant discharge no matter what RPM), thats the reason for the battery issues...

12.8 volts is considered a fully charged battery.

 

[FinalImpact]

That is one awesome write up!!! Thanks!

Measured the battery after work:

12.5v bike off
12.5v bike on at idle (~1300rpm)
13.5v bike at 5,000rpm

<11v and falling fast with bike off, grips on (100%)
11.2v bike at idle with grips on
12.2v bike at 5,000rpm with grips on


Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Looks like your charging system isn't the strongest but is working(13.5).

The grips are pulling way more current than the bikes producing (constant discharge no matter what RPM), thats the reason for the battery issues...

12.8 volts is considered a fully charged battery.

^^ Agreed , but lets not jump to conclusions about the charging system being bad. The tell tale sign is the battery drops voltage like a rock. This could mean its internal resistance is higher AND taking all the current the system produces. But we need an EXPENSIVE battery tester to test the batteries internal impedance. OR - read on....

OCR = how many watts are those grips rated at and have you inspected every connection for corrosion, wear, burning, damage? What we are seeing could be the batteries own internal resistance taking more energy than the system can provide because of its high internal resistance (why it drops voltage so fast when off).

One way to test for high internal resistance is to CHARGE it at 25% of its rated capacity. WITH IT REMOVED from the bike and the charger at 2.5Amps, if its bad (high resistance it make heat fast. Like in 10 minutes it could be very warm. Personally I'd say its doomed. But now the question is, did the bike cause it?

If all the connections from the stator to the RR and the Battery are Tip Top I suspect your stator coils could be compromised. i.e. burned. But you need healthy battery in there that isn't such a burden on the system. If your battery gets hot while charging - ** it could make your bikes charging system LOOK BAD, when in fact its not **. Its just too much of a load because its bad!​

As I mentioned in that link there are several connections to inspect. Pull them all apart and look.

The basic system:

If you don't find any bad connections, toss a new battery in there and repeat your tests - following the manufactures WAIT time after filling, charge time and all of that.

** ALSO ** don't forget to set meter to AC and test it. Sometimes the rectifier part of the RR goes bad.

JJD952

 

[Motogiro]

Before you go through all of this. Check all of your connections at the battery and check your connectors at the regulator/rectifier and also the 3 wire connector for the stator. While you have the stator unplugged you can test each of the 3 legs of the stator for a resistance of .2 to .3 ohms. Set your ohm meter to it's x1 or lowest range. Also test each of the 3 legs against ground. There should be no reading or what we call a wide open. If there is a reading against ground the stator is bad.

Connectors are often a source of failure especially where higher current is involved. They can overheat and fail. You can spend a lot of time testing and scratching your head when it's as simple as a connector failure.

A good way to check what's occurring with your charging system would be to know what the actual current/voltage relationship is in regard to current draw and current produced by the charging system at the nominal operating voltage.

The voltage you've come up with at 5,000 rpm with the grips on is below 12.8-13 vdc that you would minimally like to see. This typically will mean too much current draw from the device being uses or the charging system is not producing enough current to support the bike and the grips. With the grip heaters off and the battery fully charged you'll see very near 14 vdc at the battery.

These are just voltage references and don't tell you what amperage/current is actually being drawn or produced by the charging system at it's nominal voltage requirements.

If you're testing your bike with a discharged battery, the charging system is already under load and using a large part of it's ability to recharge the battery. This means the battery should be fully charged in order to come up with a good picture of what's going on.

First and foremost the battery should be fully charged and then load tested. The load test establishes the battery's depth of charge capability. The age of a battery has no bearing as to the ability to pass the test. Yes, old batteries can have a higher failure rate but.... A new battery can be defective. Charge the battery first and then get it load tested. Most auto parts stores can load test the battery for you for free. The load test establishes what amount of amperage it can deliver at operating voltages.

Some batteries can become contaminated internally through chemical imbalance (sulphating) or other characteristics that will cause a constant call to the charging system because it will not come to it's top off voltage.

First check the battery health then go to the other tests.

 

[bd43]

It's gotta be getting warmer out there by now. Can you disconnect the grip warmers now and see how the battery performs this next month or two?

P.S. how many watts are the grip warmers, i.e. how much current do they pull? The FZ6 charging system does not have a whole lot of extra capacity for big accessory loads.

Lastly, only use a smart charger to charge and maintain the battery. The $20 chargers will boil a good battery dry and destroy them if left unattended.

 

[OneCheekRider]

Thanks so much for all your responses! Didn't get much time to fully go through the bike this weekend with the Holiday and all.

I plugged it into the battery tender (nicer one from Deltran). Removed from the tender this morning and immediately performed the same voltage test as before. Everything tested normal (12.8v off, 14v @5k). I didn't turn on the grips to test, also rode in without grips on. I'll test it again tonight.

I'm running the Oxford Heaterz Oxford Heaterz Premium heated grips - Sports Style - TwistedThrottle.com which are advertised to draw less than 4amps and has a 5amp fuse built in. I can't imagine that being that much power? Seems to be warming up now so I don't think I'll be running them for a while.

 

[FinalImpact]

Thanks so much for all your responses! Didn't get much time to fully go through the bike this weekend with the Holiday and all.

I plugged it into the battery tender (nicer one from Deltran). Removed from the tender this morning and immediately performed the same voltage test as before. Everything tested normal (12.8v off, 14v @5k). I didn't turn on the grips to test, also rode in without grips on. I'll test it again tonight.

I'm running the Oxford Heaterz Oxford Heaterz Premium heated grips - Sports Style - TwistedThrottle.com which are advertised to draw less than 4amps and has a 5amp fuse built in. I can't imagine that being that much power? Seems to be warming up now so I don't think I'll be running them for a while.

FWIW: on a good day the bike starts of with an advertised 25 Amps. So, 1/6th of your power could feasibly be going to grips!

I did some testing on mine this week before and after riding. It has an aged 08 battery, it doesn't crank with the same enthusiasm it did two years ago so I know its days are numbered.

As Found:
12.91V sat for 3 weeks this past round.
12.15V key on wait 30 seconds value slid to 12.1

The reason I know its dying;
9.05V while cranking! Dropping 2 volts while cranking is reasonable. Nearly 3v, tells me its seen better days.

AS LEFT:
After sitting for 30 minutes after 3 hr ride = 13.25v

Also while watching it charge it maxes out at 14.45V dc. Also to my surprise a higher amount of unwanted AC being passed from the RR on the DC!
0.61VAC At 6000 RPM

HOWEVER - in its defense there is this; Most hand held meters are calculating RMS voltage and are most effective at 60 hz single phase. Our stator has 3 outputs and this may be screwing with AC RMS meter performance. -->> Some light reading... RMS Voltage of a Sinusoidal AC Waveform Also, these measurements were taken at the RR not at the battery.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

FWIW: on a good day the bike starts of with an advertised 25 Amps. So, 1/6th of your power could feasibly be going to grips!

I did some testing on mine this week before and after riding. It has an aged 08 battery, it doesn't crank with the same enthusiasm it did two years ago so I know its days are numbered.

As Found:
12.91V sat for 3 weeks this past round.
12.15V key on wait 30 seconds value slid to 12.1

The reason I know its dying;
9.05V while cranking! Dropping 2 volts while cranking is reasonable. Nearly 3v, tells me its seen better days.

AS LEFT:
After sitting for 30 minutes after 3 hr ride = 13.25v

Also while watching it charge it maxes out at 14.45V dc. Also to my surprise a higher amount of unwanted AC being passed from the RR on the DC!
0.61VAC At 6000 RPM

HOWEVER - in its defense there is this; Most hand held meters are calculating RMS voltage and are most effective at 60 hz single phase. Our stator has 3 outputs and this may be screwing with AC RMS meter performance. -->> Some light reading... RMS Voltage of a Sinusoidal AC Waveform Also, these measurements were taken at the RR not at the battery.

Is that like a big ole Blue lightinin' bolt shooting across the sky from a FASTER Blue, 07???

Or more like a single, darker, '08, "bunny" battery charge, that goes on and on and on???Blah

 

[IheartValentino]

Have you resolved this issue, OneCheekRider? I'm having the same issue. I had the r/r replaced at the local dealership, went on an all day 300+ mi ride and my bike died as I was pulling into my home driveway. The battery (8-mos new) is getting fully discharged somehow. Everything is stock and I don't use any power accessories. I'm hauling it back down to the mechanics but he seems as perplexed as I am -- and I rather not pay the hourly rate for his learning curve. I'm thinking testing the stator is my next step ...
Is it possible/likely that the r/r and stator went out simultaneously?

 

[OneCheekRider]

oddly enough, I took my battery out to get tested (it was good), put it back in and the problem hasn't resurfaced. It did warm up considerably so I have not been using my heated grips; however, the few times I did use them I just made sure I turned them off before doing any prolonged idling.

Have you tried load testing the battery even though it's <1yr old - inexpensive place to start? The earlier suggestions in this thread are great and I'd go through each of them...go through your connections and test the stator if you haven't done so already.