Bad r/r?

[RedDemon]

Hi guys, I’m having charging issues and I’m looking for advice. I bought a new battery on Monday Sept. 15, and it died on Friday Sept. 19.

Today, I checked the stator and was getting .3 to .4 ohms and 0 ohms back to ground (good). Now when I checked the r/r according to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8EjV0IjW9Q) my numbers were (0, 0, 0 – 3.66, 3.75, 0.878 – 4.53, 4.69, 5.00 – 0, 0, 0) all numbers in mega ohms. Do the numbers make sense? Does the 0.878 mean my r/r is faulty or did I just get a bad battery?


Bike in question:
2007 FZ6
Heated grips
Heated jacket liner
48,000 km

Thanks Chaps!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

What are your voltages at the battery while running? 12.8 is a fully charged battery. Anything lower than that, your drawing from the battery..


Below is a video of my bike, from cold start to warm up showing voltages at the battery.

(Note, the battery is old and the voltages are slightly lower than what a new what battery would be-not accepting a full 14+ volts put out at the VR).


https://www.flickr.com/photos/127092600@N08/


[MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION], [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION]

 

[RedDemon]

do'h, I assumed everyone knew my numbers...

My battery was pretty much doing the inverse of your battery. With the ignition off, it reads 12.2v, once I start the bike, the voltage goes down by increments of .01v. I revved the engine to 5k rpm and held it for 10 seconds with the highest reading being 13.2v.

I forgot to mention, when it died on Friday night, it was after riding the bike on the highway running between 6k and 7k rpm for 30 minutes. It seems odd the a battery wouldn't charge after riding at high rpm for so long...

I'm really trying to convince myself it is the battery and not the r/r since a new r/r is $182 ! and I can't afford to have the bike sitting for a week waiting for the r/r to come in...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

do'h, I assumed everyone knew my numbers...

My battery was pretty much doing the inverse of your battery. With the ignition off, it reads 12.2v, once I start the bike, the voltage goes down by increments of .01v. I revved the engine to 5k rpm and held it for 10 seconds with the highest reading being 13.2v.

I forgot to mention, when it died on Friday night, it was after riding the bike on the highway running between 6k and 7k rpm for 30 minutes. It seems odd the a battery wouldn't charge after riding at high rpm for so long...

I'm really trying to convince myself it is the battery and not the r/r since a new r/r is $182 ! and I can't afford to have the bike sitting for a week waiting for the r/r to come in...

Sounds like its minimally charging at higher RPM's.

The voltage going DOWN at the lower RPM's is the battery running down with NO CHARGING coming from the engine/electrics.

PM sent re checking the stator/ VR(RR)

Also, should you need another VR, etc there's usually lots of used parts in the for sale section. "Skooter65" usually has a bunch of parts, PM him should you need one..
[MENTION=3172]skooter65[/MENTION]

 

[FinalImpact]

In this thread at post 6 is some detail on the whole charing system; Batteries, Charging & the Regulator Rectifier
http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...uel-pump-battery-charging-brake-bleeding.html

The voltage alone doesn't always tell the whole story;
If it were my problem, start writing everything down and follow something like this.

• Remove battery from bike, check voltage. If less than 12.8V, charge @1.5Amps until it comes up to 14 ~ 14.4V. Don't let it get hot. DON'T exceed 5 hr at this rate.
• When removed from the charger, your battery should settle in at about 12.8 ~13.0V after 30 to 45min off charger.
• If its lower than that, it may be defective. Although I'm assuming ambient temps above 70F at your location.
• Now you can load test the battery. Take it somewhere and see that it meets its CCA rating.
  
• IF, testing is not an option AND IT WAS ABOVE 12.8V after sitting an hour, you could throw it in the bike measure the voltage, then turn the KEY to the RUN position. Battery should stay above 12.2 volts for minute pretty easy.

One exception would be if the RR has an internal short. It may draw allot more then.

In short, just because it never goes over 13.5V at 5000 RPM, it could be the battery is so drained the system just can't supply the current. If however, its fully charged and never exceeds 13.5V, now we know you have an issue if the battery IS HEALTHY!

 

[Motogiro]

My first thought per the stator test and the fact that the battery is new is the R/R
Only testing will reveal the problem.

I agree it is important to charge the battery fully and either load test it or look at voltages to see if there is an increase in voltages after the bike has been started. Even with an increase in voltage we wont know the amperage the system is capable of but turning on the heated grips and jacket should still show13 plus VDC if the RPM is 4-5K. unless those two high current devices draw more current than the system can deliver because of design. Also running around town and running additional high current devices on the bike's charging system is not a great idea.

How much current do your additional devices require?

Also that 0.878 reading on the R/R does look leaky compared to the other diodes....

 

[RedDemon]

Also, should you need another VR, etc there's usually lots of used parts in the for sale section. "Skooter65" usually has a bunch of parts, PM him should you need one..
@skooter65

That's funny, I bought his exhaust he was selling (ridiculously well packaged). I'll send him a msg.

In this thread at post 6 is some detail on the whole charing system; Batteries, Charging & the Regulator Rectifier
http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...uel-pump-battery-charging-brake-bleeding.html

The voltage alone doesn't always tell the whole story;
If it were my problem, start writing everything down and follow something like this.

• Remove battery from bike, check voltage. If less than 12.8V, charge @1.5Amps until it comes up to 14 ~ 14.4V. Don't let it get hot. DON'T exceed 5 hr at this rate.
• When removed from the charger, your battery should settle in at about 12.8 ~13.0V after 30 to 45min off charger.
• If its lower than that, it may be defective. Although I'm assuming ambient temps above 70F at your location.
• Now you can load test the battery. Take it somewhere and see that it meets its CCA rating.
  
• IF, testing is not an option AND IT WAS ABOVE 12.8V after sitting an hour, you could throw it in the bike measure the voltage, then turn the KEY to the RUN position. Battery should stay above 12.2 volts for minute pretty easy.

One exception would be if the RR has an internal short. It may draw allot more then.

In short, just because it never goes over 13.5V at 5000 RPM, it could be the battery is so drained the system just can't supply the current. If however, its fully charged and never exceeds 13.5V, now we know you have an issue if the battery IS HEALTHY!

I read that post in my search, I'll give it another read when I get the battery back. I dropped both batteries (old one replaced last week and the new one) at the parts store and will pick them up later today to do the testing with a fresh charge.

My first thought per the stator test and the fact that the battery is new is the R/R
Only testing will reveal the problem.

I agree it is important to charge the battery fully and either load test it or look at voltages to see if there is an increase in voltages after the bike has been started. Even with an increase in voltage we wont know the amperage the system is capable of but turning on the heated grips and jacket should still show13 plus VDC if the RPM is 4-5K. unless those two high current devices draw more current than the system can deliver because of design. Also running around town and running additional high current devices on the bike's charging system is not a great idea.

How much current do your additional devices require?

Also that 0.878 reading on the R/R does look leaky compared to the other diodes....

The heated grips draw 3 amps (36w) on high setting and the Powerlite jacket liner draws 8.5 amps on high and 4 amps on lowest setting. The jacket has the option of either running 105 watts or 60 watts, I've been running with 105 watts. Is this too much for the FZ6 charging system?

I will let you know what I find out after I do the testing. Thanks a lot! :cheer:

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

the Powerlite jacket liner draws 8.5 amps on high and 4 amps on lowest setting. The jacket has the option of either running 105 watts or 60 watts, I've been running with 105 watts. Is this too much for the FZ6 charging system?

I have a Widder heated vest attached to heated gauntlet gloves with a variable controller. I can run it on high without issue but when stopping for a red light, etc, I turn them off or low.

As long as I'm above 2,000 RPM's or so, I'm good to run them....

 

[FinalImpact]

Lets Shine a little perspective;

The FZ's Magneto is capable of 310 watts at 5000 RPM {meaning it may give more at higher rpm?? IDK!}, but it is limited by the RR at 25A regardless of engine RPM OR about 360 Watts. (F/I see below).

I had a bunch of FACTS typed but its too much detail for most so I deleted it! It comes down to this.

Dual headlights at 13.5V come in ~ 135 Watts (not 110, its not 12V).
The bikes needs roughly 7.2Amps for the Fuel pump, Injectors, ECM, and ignition which is another 97W
Basic running lights ~ 15W
=========================
Total: ~247 Watts of the 310W available..... Above 5K it may be more??

Post 3 from this gains some credit; 35 Watt HID Ballast current = 4.0 Amps http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...ent-4-0-amps.html?highlight=jjd952+electrical

I wrote other sh!tz based on what I new at the time. The only thing that makes sense is the FZ charging system is capable of something around 350W... Or not. Who knows....

 

[RedDemon]

I have a Widder heated vest attached to heated gauntlet gloves with a variable controller. I can run it on high without issue but when stopping for a red light, etc, I turn them off or low.

As long as I'm above 2,000 RPM's or so, I'm good to run them....

That's interesting, I'll keep that in mind.

Lets Shine a little perspective;

The FZ's Magneto is capable of 310 watts at 5000 RPM {meaning it may give more at higher rpm?? IDK!}, but it is limited by the RR at 25A regardless of engine RPM OR about 360 Watts. (F/I see below).

I had a bunch of FACTS typed but its too much detail for most so I deleted it! It comes down to this.

Dual headlights at 13.5V come in ~ 135 Watts (not 110, its not 12V).
The bikes needs roughly 7.2Amps for the Fuel pump, Injectors, ECM, and ignition which is another 97W
Basic running lights ~ 15W
=========================
Total: ~247 Watts of the 310W available..... Above 5K it may be more??

Post 3 from this gains some credit; 35 Watt HID Ballast current = 4.0 Amps http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...ent-4-0-amps.html?highlight=jjd952+electrical

I wrote other sh!tz based on what I new at the time. The only thing that makes sense is the FZ charging system is capable of something around 350W... Or not. Who knows....

Well then, that’s some great info. So this all means that I only have roughly ~63 watts to play with and I was exceeding that by 77 watts running 105 watt jacket. I will be using the jacket on 60 watts and do what TownsendsFJR1300 suggested to get it closer to the bikes max wattage.

Also, I have yet to get my hand on a new new battery (the new battery and old battery both failed to keep a charge)…so I'll have to wait till tomorrow to do the diagnosing.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That's interesting, I'll keep that in mind.
Well then, that’s some great info. So this all means that I only have roughly ~63 watts to play with and I was exceeding that by 77 watts running 105 watt jacket. I will be using the jacket on 60 watts and do what TownsendsFJR1300 suggested to get it closer to the bikes max wattage.

.

I also have the BD43 dual headlight mod as well... Had the bike (FZ) about 5 years now, had that gear way longer than that, since about 2004..

 

[RedDemon]

Wait, I thought all S2 FZ6's have both headlights turn on from factory? I guess mine are modified as well?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Wait, I thought all S2 FZ6's have both headlights turn on from factory? I guess mine are modified as well?

Nope, same as the S1, one eye for LB, one eye for HB (from the factory). Looks like a burned out headlight.

One of the best mods, IMO you can do...


**Speaking of which, if someone modified the HB headlight incorrectly, ie, the LB and HB in the same fixture stay on at the same time (another 55 watts, or at least 110 in ONE FIXTURE).

The BD43 mod or Motogiro's mod actually turns off the LB element when the HB is activated (as it should).

You can easily check it by powering up the headlights, and checking for power (with the HB switch ON) at both + terminals of the harness. Only ONE should be on at a time if installed correctly.

As close as the power output is, make sure it is set up correctly or your pissing away 55 watts and potentially dangerous at the same time..

Besides the extra current draw, shorter bulb life, you also making more heat inside that fixture that could cause issues as well as cooking the harness if really installed incorrectly..

 

[RedDemon]

Nope, same as the S1, one eye for LB, one eye for HB (from the factory). Looks like a burned out headlight.

One of the best mods, IMO you can do...

Cool, the previous owner must have done this mod since that's how it is on my bike.

Even though I can't say how well a single light illuminates the road at night compared to a dual setup, having the dual light is nice when most of my riding is done at night coming back from school at 10pm.

Also the added bonus of not having people tell me I have a burnt out bulb lol

 

[FinalImpact]

I also have the BD43 dual headlight mod as well... Had the bike (FZ) about 5 years now, had that gear way longer than that, since about 2004..

I'm guessing **most** of the year you don't use this equipment tho (Y/N??). How much of the year do you use it and does your bike tolerate the 100+ Watt option?
I'm asking as it appears your bike also runs a little lower voltage than some so taking into account the hotter temps there, (correct me if I'm wrong) but we agree sustained higher temps common to your locale will degrade a batteries health quicker, but considering the low miles on your bike it suggests its not actually out in the heat that much. From this, I'm trying to see if the use of gear is the greater assault on battery life than the temperatures? Make sense? Mainly because it appears its also stored inside where the temps don't swing wildly....

I'm just trying to get a clear picture of its daily/yearly life and why some batteries last longer than others. Also IIRC you seldom RTSOOI (Run the Sh$t Out Of It), which seems to keep my battery in check!

Can I make a few more assumptions?

==========================
Items that may impact battery life:
==========================

• Riding style
• Traffic when ridden
• Weather/Exposure when parked
• Down time (winter etc)
• Weather/Exposure when ridden
• Extra Loads/heated gear, lighting, gadgets
• Average run time

F/I's 6+ year old battery

• Riding style = much Zoom, lots of higher RPM
• Traffic when ridden = mostly pleasure, rare in town idle for more then 15"
• Weather/Exposure when parked = exposed to temperature but sheltered. Winter is 2 mo in the teens, 2 months in the 40's. Summer ~ 2 mo 90's. Rest of the time is 65F avg.
• Weather/Exposure when ridden 55 ~ 95F, but mostly 70s 80s.
• Sitting time = parked for winter 3~4 months. ~ 4 - 4,500 miles per season weekends mostly.
• Extra Loads/heated gear, lighting, gadgets = dual headlight only, Rear lighting is all LEDs.
• Average run time = Always more than an hour. Typically upwards of 2 or more per time ridden.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm guessing **most** of the year you don't use this equipment tho (Y/N??). How much of the year do you use it and does your bike tolerate the 100+ Watt option?
I'm asking as it appears your bike also runs a little lower voltage than some so taking into account the hotter temps there, (correct me if I'm wrong) but we agree sustained higher temps common to your locale will degrade a batteries health quicker, but considering the low miles on your bike it suggests its not actually out in the heat that much. From this, I'm trying to see if the use of gear is the greater assault on battery life than the temperatures? Make sense? Mainly because it appears its also stored inside where the temps don't swing wildly....

I'm just trying to get a clear picture of its daily/yearly life and why some batteries last longer than others. Also IIRC you seldom RTSOOI (Run the Sh$t Out Of It), which seems to keep my battery in check!

Can I make a few more assumptions?

==========================
Items that may impact battery life:
==========================

• Riding style
• Traffic when ridden
• Weather/Exposure when parked
• Down time (winter etc)
• Weather/Exposure when ridden
• Extra Loads/heated gear, lighting, gadgets
• Average run time

F/I's 6+ year old battery

• Riding style = much Zoom, lots of higher RPM
• Traffic when ridden = mostly pleasure, rare in town idle for more then 15"
• Weather/Exposure when parked = exposed to temperature but sheltered. Winter is 2 mo in the teens, 2 months in the 40's. Summer ~ 2 mo 90's. Rest of the time is 65F avg.
• Weather/Exposure when ridden 55 ~ 95F, but mostly 70s 80s.
• Sitting time = parked for winter 3~4 months. ~ 4 - 4,500 miles per season weekends mostly.
• Extra Loads/heated gear, lighting, gadgets = dual headlight only, Rear lighting is all LEDs.
• Average run time = Always more than an hour. Typically upwards of 2 or more per time ridden.

Its always garaged and in the garage, during summer(it is insulated), its well over 100F in there.

I don't know off hand what the vest and gloves pull wattage wise and yes your correct re the usage. Once it drops to 45F or so, out comes the heated gear. Maybe use them (short of winter road trips) maybe a week total for winter.

The Widder vest, CANNOT be used at 100%, its just too hot. Usually 50% is plenty. 99% of my trips are around town, speed limits in town, max of 55MPH. Idle time (1,100) no more than 3-4 minutes.

It does see triple digits occasionally when crossing a local, LONG (2 lanes in each direction) bridge, divided median or a short hard run on occassion. But no, it doesn't see redline often..

I do ride almost everyday (not a commuter) and no, it rarely gets run to red line short of a cage (bike) next to me who thinks he's fast, then yes, its run hard.

As noted previously, my FJR, to the month, @3 years, would need a new battery. All bikes got OEM Yuasa's, charged before install, etc..

My other bikes, before tenders, were about the same time frame- replacement wise.

This one's going on 3.5 years now, in the video I posted, you can see cold cranking voltage drop to 10 volts. I'm NOT losing the clock yet. Once that happens, out goes the old, in goes the new...

Summer temps are at least 6 months, 1-2 months of cold winter (for down here), rarely see's 30's(maybe 2-3 nights a year). In a month or so, its riding season where your not in the 90's everyday.. That'll last untill April maybe..

My old 1989 KLR 250 was used as my commuter prior to the year 2000. It had 73,000 miles on the clock when I sold it (2 engine rebuilds) but I used the heated gear on that as well. Being a kick start only engine, the battery was half the size of the FZ. Same procedure, turn off gear when stopped, etc. My 05 KLR 250 had 28,000 miles when I sold it.

Between all the bikes I've owned since down here (again, since 1979), I can document a bit over 200,000 miles. Any bike I've had longer than 3 years, the battery life was roughly the same..

BTW, the FZ was supposed to be my KLR "beater" replacement. I usually had 3 bikes at a time, thus the lower miles as it was spread out between bikes. The FZ turned out to be my fav, sold the rest and its it (I have been eyeing the 2014 FJR.. ).

Belows the speedometer to my 05 KLR 250 just to show it was ridden(not a commuter either)

Re the lower charging voltage, I am getting 14.2 at the VR even when the battery shows roughly 13.8 volts. I believe, (and will verify one way or the other once the new battery is in) , the old sulfated battery isn't accepting the full charge sent to it.

On a previous thread, I did update it that the voltage (static) was exactly the same at the battery and the VR and my Powerlet outlet.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Even though I can't say how well a single light illuminates the road at night compared to a dual setup, having the dual light is nice when most of my riding is done at night coming back from school at 10pm.

As noted above, when you have a moment and a cheap 12 volt "light tester", check the positive terminals of the harness to make sure their (the one plug) both (low and high beams) are NOT POWERED at the same time..

One should go off as the other goes on..

If it does, again, your drawing an addional 55 watts (at least) when NOT needed.

You can actually un-plug your high beam for testing and see how the charging system re-acts..

**Both elements ON, in ONE BULB, will draw more and will contribute to the charging issue**

 

[FinalImpact]

SNIP

**Both elements ON, in ONE BULB, will draw more and will contribute to the charging issue**

And yer bulbs will be like supernova 1/16 life as they can't shed enough btu's to survive thermal meltdown!

But ya, what Scott said. Make sure its done right!

 

[FinalImpact]

PS - if heated gear is needed often; consider converting the lighting to HID. It'll save you roughly 55 watts!

I did a hands on current draw test of some ballasts and you could drop your consumption from the halogen's (135 Watts {claim is 110W}) down to ~80 maybe even 70 watts... --> http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-electrical/51497-35-watt-hid-ballast-current-4-0-amps.html

 

[RedDemon]

Ok, so now I'm quite positive that the voltage reg is the issue. I got my hand on a new battery reading 13.54v at rest. I connected it to the bike and started it.

At first, the battery voltage started going up by increments of .01v...I thought all is well. So I revved the engine to 5k rpm but was only reading 13.76v, it did not go any higher. So when I let the bike idle again, the battery voltage started going back down by increments of .01v. So this settles it I suppose.

I also checked the high/low beam by just looking at the two filaments and when I switched the high on and off, the filaments would alternate...so that's good.

I may look into doing the HID conversion over the winter. It's kind of tough though, spend ~$350+ CND for and HID kit of spend $400 on a GSG 1911...decision decision