A Reasoned Statement on Health Insurance

Oscar54

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If anyone is interested in reading a reality based article on health insurance in America, as free as possible from political agenda, then read on.

Paul Krugman is a Nobel Prize Winner in Economics. So, he is not a political hack.

New York Times - Op-Ed Columnist
Health Care Realities
Paul Krugman, July 30, 2009


At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.” The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, “wasn’t having any of it.”

It’s a funny story — but it illustrates the extent to which health reform must climb a wall of misinformation. It’s not just that many Americans don’t understand what President Obama is proposing; many people don’t understand the way American health care works right now. They don’t understand, in particular, that getting the government involved in health care wouldn’t be a radical step: the government is already deeply involved, even in private insurance.

And that government involvement is the only reason our system works at all.

The key thing you need to know about health care is that it depends crucially on insurance. You don’t know when or whether you’ll need treatment — but if you do, treatment can be extremely expensive, well beyond what most people can pay out of pocket. Triple coronary bypasses, not routine doctor’s visits, are where the real money is, so insurance is essential.

Yet private markets for health insurance, left to their own devices, work very badly: insurers deny as many claims as possible, and they also try to avoid covering people who are likely to need care. Horror stories are legion: the insurance company that refused to pay for urgently needed cancer surgery because of questions about the patient’s acne treatment; the healthy young woman denied coverage because she briefly saw a psychologist after breaking up with her boyfriend.

And in their efforts to avoid “medical losses,” the industry term for paying medical bills, insurers spend much of the money taken in through premiums not on medical treatment, but on “underwriting” — screening out people likely to make insurance claims. In the individual insurance market, where people buy insurance directly rather than getting it through their employers, so much money goes into underwriting and other expenses that only around 70 cents of each premium dollar actually goes to care.
Still, most Americans do have health insurance, and are reasonably satisfied with it. How is that possible, when insurance markets work so badly? The answer is government intervention.

Most obviously, the government directly provides insurance via Medicare and other programs. Before Medicare was established, more than 40 percent of elderly Americans lacked any kind of health insurance. Today, Medicare — which is, by the way, one of those “single payer” systems conservatives love to demonize — covers everyone 65 and older. And surveys show that Medicare recipients are much more satisfied with their coverage than Americans with private insurance.

Still, most Americans under 65 do have some form of private insurance. The vast majority, however, don’t buy it directly: they get it through their employers. There’s a big tax advantage to doing it that way, since employer contributions to health care aren’t considered taxable income. But to get that tax advantage employers have to follow a number of rules; roughly speaking, they can’t discriminate based on pre-existing medical conditions or restrict benefits to highly paid employees.

And it’s thanks to these rules that employment-based insurance more or less works, at least in the sense that horror stories are a lot less common than they are in the individual insurance market.

So here’s the bottom line: if you currently have decent health insurance, thank the government. It’s true that if you’re young and healthy, with nothing in your medical history that could possibly have raised red flags with corporate accountants, you might have been able to get insurance without government intervention. But time and chance happen to us all, and the only reason you have a reasonable prospect of still having insurance coverage when you need it is the large role the government already plays.
Which brings us to the current debate over reform.

Right-wing opponents of reform would have you believe that President Obama is a wild-eyed socialist, attacking the free market. But unregulated markets don’t work for health care — never have, never will. To the extent we have a working health care system at all right now it’s only because the government covers the elderly, while a combination of regulation and tax subsidies makes it possible for many, but not all, nonelderly Americans to get decent private coverage.

Now Mr. Obama basically proposes using additional regulation and subsidies to make decent insurance available to all of us. That’s not radical; it’s as American as, well, Medicare.


Articles like this speak to my sense of reality.
 

Cuba

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I see nothing here that proposes rushing through the process of reform, nor does Krugman, an economist, mention anything regarding the economic impact of reform, or even the need for it economically speaking. There is nothing here that supports a public option, nor does it support partisan unilateral dictation of what should happen. He makes a very breif, broad, and unsupported claim that government regulation is necessary for healthcare reform... pretty obvious. Neither side is fighting against increased government regulation (although one is against full blown government control), both are for the mandate, both are for eliminating penalties for preexisting conditions (as are the insurance companies). I'm not sure what his point is, since this is not relevant to the current issues the administration is facing, other than to say Americans understand what Obama is selling, which they don't. He is merely saying we need government to be involved in reforming healthcare, something that was never in question in the first place. The trouble, as it always is, is in the details. Details that mean the difference between economic success (lowering the unsustainable cost burden) and economic collapse due to massive entitlement burdens that are unsustainable (see California). There is a balance, and nothing that has come out of the house or senate has the appropriate balance to actually reduce costs, as Obama himself has clearly stated many times recently. It isn't ready, it doesn't address the cost issue, and it shouldn't be voted on until it does. That's what Obama is saying, but he seems to enjoy attacking the people that are trying to address these issues (republicans and moderate democrats) rather than working with them to fix it. His poll numbers speak to that. Slow down, cooperate, do what you promissed you would. Lead from above the politics, don't lead with them.
 

Oscar54

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His point is in the last paragraph.

That Obama's opponents characterization of his motives is off base. Just as your statement is that Obama is ramming this legislation through is a mis-characterization to suit your point of view.
 

Cuba

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His point is in the last paragraph.

That Obama's opponents characterization of his motives is off base. Just as your statement is that Obama is ramming this legislation through is a mis-characterization to suit your point of view.

Strange that his point completely omits the significant fact that it isn't the right wing that is halting this plan, it is the centrist democrats. There are right wing arguments that explain, accurately I might add, that a public option is in fact socialized healthcare. That is to be expected, just as any tax cut for small business would be attacked from the left as a tax break on the rich. The problem is that the numbers don't add up, the effects on private business, quality of healthcare, and survivability of our current insurance plans are unclear, and large numbers of democrats are no longer willing to be strongarmed by the far left.

I can't understand how an argument that Obama tried to ram through incomlete legislation is a mischaracterization. He put an unrealistic deadline on an extremely complex and massive policy shift, painted anyone that tried to debate it as an obstructionist bent on destroying the chances of any reform, and was pushing very hard for a partisan, party line vote as quickly as possible. He admitted, MANY times, that the bills were incomplete and were not solving the cost issue. He tried to ram through incomplete legislation, it's a fact. Any attempts at rationalization as to WHY he tried to do it is a separate issue.

Krugman isn't saying anything new here, nor is he wrong in any particular way other than tone. He is insinuating that this is a right wing attempt at deregulating healthcare, and nothing could be further from the truth. Great strides have been made by Obama to garner broad support for reform, cost cutting, and increased regulation. The right wing agrees with this plan, just not with the garbage that has come out of the house thus far. Obama doesn't agree with it either (unless he's lying), nor do centrist democrats.
 
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wrightme43

[FONT=times new roman,times]It was an astonishing admission.

Last week, Rep. John Conyers (D-MI), Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, told an audience at the National Press Club that, not only had he not read the House health-care bill which would reorganize 1/6th of the U.S. economy, but that even if he had he would not have understood it:
[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]"I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill.' What good is reading the bill if it's a thousand pages and you don't have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?"[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]And so a leading legislator confesses that he is too lazy to read, and too stupid to understand, the legislation that he will pass judgment on and which he will expect Americans to live under. Either that, or the bill as crafted is so opaque as to be effectively incomprehensible.

Sadly, both are true - the bill is incomprehensible and Congress is full of lazy ignoramuses (aren't we lucky?)

But there may be something else going on here, something more malevolent. On July 7th, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) told CNS News, "If every member pledged to not vote for it [the health-care bill] if they hadn't read it in its entirety, I think we would have very few votes,"

This, too, could be a brazen admission of sloth (We would never get through all those pages! There's no pictures or anything!). Or it may be that Hoyer suspects, as I do, that if Congress actually read and understood this 1,000 page monstrosity, many members would balk at voting for it, so radically does it reconfigure American society.

[/FONT]
 
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wrightme43

Not biased at all. Hmmmm??????

[edit] Political views

Krugman describes himself as liberal. His choice of the book title "The Conscience of a Liberal" is a play on Barry Goldwater's "Conscience of a Conservative". Krugman has explained that he views the term "liberal" in the American context to mean "more or less what social democratic means in Europe".[70] He was an ardent critic of the George W. Bush administration and its foreign and domestic policy. He differs from most economic pundits in that he is regarded as an important academic scholar by his peers.
Krugman has sometimes advocated free markets in contexts where they are unpopular. He has written against rent control,[71] argued that "sweatshops" are an inevitable reality,[21] likened the opposition against free trade to the opposition against evolution via natural selection,[72] opposed increases in farm subsidies,[73] and ethanol mandates and subsidies/tax breaks,[74] questioned NASA's manned space flights,[75] and written against some aspects of European labor market regulation.[76][77]
He has, however, declared himself an ardent supporter of the welfare state. His appointment in the Reagan Administration, he has reiterated in an autobiographical essay, was not expected or fitting. "It was, in a way, strange for me to be part of the Reagan Administration. I was then and still am an unabashed defender of the welfare state, which I regard as the most decent social arrangement yet devised." [78]
Krugman has been a prominent critic of the Obama administration's economic policies, in particular its efforts to prop up the US financial system, which he considers unsustainable in its present form.[79] Krugman has criticized the Obama stimulus plan as inadequate and the banking rescue plan as misdirected; Krugman wrote in the New York Times: "an overwhelming majority [of the American public] believes that the government is spending too much to help large financial institutions. This suggests that the administration’s money-for-nothing financial policy will eventually deplete its political capital."[80]
Krugman has praised Gordon Brown, the British Prime Minister, asserting that he "defined the character of the worldwide [financial] rescue effort" and has since urged British voters not to support the opposition Conservative Party, arguing their Party Leader David Cameron "has had little to offer other than to raise the red flag of fiscal panic".[81][82]

Krugman Truth Squad: Donald Luskin on Paul Krugman, Socialism & Robin Hood on NRO Financial

Krugman is not as you say a man "free as possible from political agenda" he has a agenda and it is the liberal agenda. He is pro socialism. He is for a welfare state and has stated it many times.

Basicly just because he is saying what you want to hear, doesnt make it so.
 
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wrightme43

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance[/ame]

Obama stating unquestionably that he wants and is working towards the single payer health care model. Knowing full well that it will mean the end of private insurance, and then denying it.

Just so you know.
 

Cuba

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YouTube - SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance

Obama stating unquestionably that he wants and is working towards the single payer health care model. Knowing full well that it will mean the end of private insurance, and then denying it.

Just so you know.

I just posted this to the other thread as well... perhaps the whole "let's understand the impact of what we're doing" argument is gaining ground. And the "why are they trying to rush this so quickly?" question is being asked by more people.
 
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wrightme43

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8UjY3YDlwA]YouTube - Lloyd Doggett's meeting on Obamacare in south Austin, TX, 1 Aug 2009[/ame]


Hey Cuba you want to just start posting the OVERWHELMING protest videos at EVERY single congressmans and senators public meetings?????

Maybe just maybe if we just all have a freaking fit at these stupid, lying, worthless, politibeasts we can stop them.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNIDO1JOuO8]YouTube - Austin ObamaCare Protest[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPptos934QU]YouTube - ObamaCare protest 27 JULY 2009[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCaLpki_tPk]YouTube - Obama-care Protest July 27[/ame]

Oh hell I will be here all day, how about a link so you can find your own.

YouTube - obamacare protest
 

Cuba

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It's almost as if we are paying attention to what they are doing... I'll join a local protest if we have one, in a few years we may be thanking this administration and congress for forcing people to become more involved in our governance. Bush was a good start, but now that we see extremism on either side as a problem we may be getting somewhere.
 

Wavex

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Thanks Oscar for the text! Quite interesting!

Oh and U.P. doesn't seem to show in the NEW POST link anymore! Great news for the forum :D
 

Oscar54

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Not biased at all. Hmmmm??????

[edit] Political views

Krugman describes himself as liberal. His choice of the book title "The Conscience of a Liberal" is a play on Barry Goldwater's "Conscience of a Conservative". Krugman has explained that he views the term "liberal" in the American context to mean "more or less what social democratic means in Europe".[70] He was an ardent critic of the George W. Bush administration and its foreign and domestic policy. He differs from most economic pundits in that he is regarded as an important academic scholar by his peers.
Krugman has sometimes advocated free markets in contexts where they are unpopular. He has written against rent control,[71] argued that "sweatshops" are an inevitable reality,[21] likened the opposition against free trade to the opposition against evolution via natural selection,[72] opposed increases in farm subsidies,[73] and ethanol mandates and subsidies/tax breaks,[74] questioned NASA's manned space flights,[75] and written against some aspects of European labor market regulation.[76][77]
He has, however, declared himself an ardent supporter of the welfare state. His appointment in the Reagan Administration, he has reiterated in an autobiographical essay, was not expected or fitting. "It was, in a way, strange for me to be part of the Reagan Administration. I was then and still am an unabashed defender of the welfare state, which I regard as the most decent social arrangement yet devised." [78]
Krugman has been a prominent critic of the Obama administration's economic policies, in particular its efforts to prop up the US financial system, which he considers unsustainable in its present form.[79] Krugman has criticized the Obama stimulus plan as inadequate and the banking rescue plan as misdirected; Krugman wrote in the New York Times: "an overwhelming majority [of the American public] believes that the government is spending too much to help large financial institutions. This suggests that the administration’s money-for-nothing financial policy will eventually deplete its political capital."[80]
Krugman has praised Gordon Brown, the British Prime Minister, asserting that he "defined the character of the worldwide [financial] rescue effort" and has since urged British voters not to support the opposition Conservative Party, arguing their Party Leader David Cameron "has had little to offer other than to raise the red flag of fiscal panic".[81][82]

Krugman Truth Squad: Donald Luskin on Paul Krugman, Socialism & Robin Hood on NRO Financial

Krugman is not as you say a man "free as possible from political agenda" he has a agenda and it is the liberal agenda. He is pro socialism. He is for a welfare state and has stated it many times.

Basicly just because he is saying what you want to hear, doesnt make it so.

I think by your own research you have shown Krugman to not be an ideologue.

I know you all want to run off on the "Socialism" bandwagon, but the main point of Krugman's OpEd is that the Private Insurance Industry is not the most efficient way to provide health care.

Now, if you are a disciple of the infallibility of free markets then you will always disagree.

If you feel no obligation to other Americans who are unemployed or working poor and can't afford private insurance or work for small businesses that provide no coverage and feel that you should not have to pay for someone else, then you should not buy insurance at all because that is the basis of insurance to spread (or Socialize, so to speak) risk.

Employer provided health care costs you in the price of products and services you purchase, so we are paying for each other's health insurance anyway.

Also, health care by nature is not a competitive market. When people get sick they are not in any position to bargain for cost of services. The first thing the Doctors and Hospitals do is make you sign a contract agreeing to pay what ever they choose to charge. I don't know of anyone who has refused to sign it and got treatment? The same for quibbling over the cost of your prescriptions.

This flaw is incompatible with efficient quality health care. Medicare works well, most seniors like it. My mother has been served very well by it. The Doctors like it because there is no capricious application of rules on what gets paid.

The big fuss is not about cost or quality of health care. It is about profit for the Corporation, plain and simple. If these guys (health care corporations) were as altruistic and committed to providing quality health care at competitive costs, covering everyone (like insurance is supposed to.) and not gaming benefits, we would not be having this discussion.
 
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wrightme43

YAY!!!!! Now that makes sense Oscar. If that is what this bill did. If it actually provided a fair and level playing field and held the doctors, hospitals, lawyers, and insurance companies to account and made the system work.

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANY OF US BE AGAINST IT????????????

Cant you see that man. WE ALL WANT QUALITY HEALTH CARE AT A FAIR COST!!!!!!!

The bill is a bullcrap, manipulitive lie. It is not going to provide what it is presented as and will cause me, you, everyone in the US harm.

This has zero to do with who came up with it, or why. I dont give a rats ass who does something good!!! I WILL BE BEHIND IT 100% everytime. This is not good. This is evil and wrong wrapped in bull****. Thats why so many of us oppose it. READ THE DAMN BILL MAN!!! I linked it.
 
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