No start - suggestions

[erickz]

Just got a 2005 Fazer with a dead battery. Replaced the battery but no joy as to starting. Bike is up on the center stand. Bike cranks nicely but will not fire. Gas in the tank. Any suggestions as to where to start? 18,500 miles has sat with a dead battery for months. All looks good under the gas tank.
Thanks
EZ

 

[Motogiro]

:welcome: to the forum!

Have you checked to see if you've got spark? Once you establish that you have spark you'll want to make sure you're getting fuel. You might pull your plugs to make sure they're dry and not fouled. If you have a fuel delivery issue it may be to a clogged fuel filter and you may have to pull the pump assembly.

I'm sure some of our other techs will jump in with some good suggestions. Don't be shy about doing a search. There are some great threads to help with trouble shooting.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just to add, when you initially turn the key ON, do you hear the fuel pump(in the tank) run for about 3 seconds?

It has to pressurize.

If so, pull the air filter, under the tank, a spritz just a touch of fuel in the throttle bodies. If it TRIES to start, you've narrowed it
down to the fuel system (most likely, especially after sitting)..


**Did you dump the old fuel before trying to start? Crappy fuel WILL cause issues even in a great running engine.

PM sent as well, check your mail..

 

[erickz]

All good suggestions. Hear the pump coming on but probably haven't let it pressurize. Just wanted to see if I was doing something like trying to start with the side stand down.
Will break out the manual and dive in.
Thanks!
EZ

 

[Monica A]

All good suggestions. Hear the pump coming on but probably haven't let it pressurize. Just wanted to see if I was doing something like trying to start with the side stand down.
Will break out the manual and dive in.
Thanks!
EZ

I'm no expert like these fine gentlemen replying to you, but are you trying to start it in gear or neutral? Neutral with clutch pulled in and kickstand up? I don't mean to say that you don't know what you are doing, but we all occassionally have "senior" moments.

I had starting problems on my trip to Canada last summer. Got gas and used the facilities. When trying to start the bike to continue on the trip, it was completely dead. Nothing. I had turned the key off so not a dead battery. Hubby played with the kill switch. I put the kickstand down so he could get on and try to start it. Something worked, the darn thing started and off we went. This was the last day of our trip and I kind of forgot about it. Next trip, it did it again. Hubby figured out it was the switch on the kickstand. He disconnected it and now works great. I just have to remember to not take off with the kickstand down, because the safety switch to disconnected. Triumph's (unfortunately) are known for electrical problems. My '06 has 30K+ miles now, but I love my bike so I'll be keeping him.

 

[Motogiro]

I'm no expert like these fine gentlemen replying to you, but are you trying to start it in gear or neutral? Neutral with clutch pulled in and kickstand up? I don't mean to say that you don't know what you are doing, but we all occassionally have "senior" moments.

I had starting problems on my trip to Canada last summer. Got gas and used the facilities. When trying to start the bike to continue on the trip, it was completely dead. Nothing. I had turned the key off so not a dead battery. Hubby played with the kill switch. I put the kickstand down so he could get on and try to start it. Something worked, the darn thing started and off we went. This was the last day of our trip and I kind of forgot about it. Next trip, it did it again. Hubby figured out it was the switch on the kickstand. He disconnected it and now works great. I just have to remember to not take off with the kickstand down, because the safety switch to disconnected. Triumph's (unfortunately) are known for electrical problems. My '06 has 30K+ miles now, but I love my bike so I'll be keeping him.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I would replace your sidestand switch as it may also be your safety for not starting your bike in gear. Different bikes have different combinations of safety protocol but they are pretty much the same result. Generally the side stand switch will not allow the engine to start or run in gear if the stand is in the down position.

 

[erickz]

The bike is up on the center stand, in neutral. I noticed the side stand switch, which can be problematic on my other bike. Can I simply disconnect it or do I need to connect the wires to each other after disconnecting from the switch?
Thanks
EZ

 

[FinalImpact]

Have you verified all the fuses are good under the right side rear pod?
Because it cranks, the safety lock-out protocols are being met. I would leave the side stand alone.

Back to the top few posts.... lift the tank by removing the two bolts at the front. Don't overextend the wires..... block tank and remove screws from air box and pull the lid off.
Take some fresh fuel and dribble equal amounts into each throttle body. Give 1/4 throttle and crank it over. Report back.
Hopefully it blubbers to life spitting and spuddering.... nurse it w the throttle. If it fired, try one more time starting and if it does start and die, it seems you have fuel delivery problem. Add fuel to TB's and try again. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 teaspoon per TB is plenty.

Also look under the seat for an add on piggyback fuel controller. Make sure it is all stock. Report back.

Last bit - if it does not fire off from adding fuel, now we go looking for spark.

 

[erickz]

We pulled the air box and got it to run on starting fluid. But no throttle response. We then verified power to the fuel
pump. We then removed the fuel pump - holy varnish Batman! Will need a new pump, sending
unit and a boiled fuel tank, just awful in there. How do I post pictures??

 

[FinalImpact]

Use the paper clip.... look in hidden areas for add files, add selected files, And Done.....

** For the record Do NOT use starter fluid on high compression engines! Its too easy to dose wrong and damage them! **

PS clean the parts with MAF cleaner knowing its highly flammable! The pump is a standard auto pump capable of 70 psi. You can spend $100's or about 50 on ebay.... see the sticky in the tech section; http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...uel-pump-battery-charging-brake-bleeding.html
It tells you more about this....

Biggest tip and greatest weakness is missing the 36psi test where the fuel Pressure Regulator leaks because debris is holding the PR open prevents a working pump from building the required pressure to run the injectors and operate the engine.

You can use air pressure to test this. That valve must seal and hold pressure to 36psi. If it does not seal, the engine won't run. Fact is, you may not need the electric motor/pump. Just clean everything and test the valve.

When done you can test the assembly in a bucket of water and confirm 36psi outlet pressure. If it fails this test, don't install it in the tank. Please follow that link...

 

[erickz]

We took the entire pump assembly apart, cleaned it all but no joy with the pump bench test. Do you know of a replacement pump I could use (vendor, p/n)?
Thanks

 

[erickz]

No worries - jus found one on eBay. Now gonna clean the tank with apple cider vinegar.

 

[erickz]

Got the pump reassembled, plugged into the bike"s harness and - ta da - it works. Now just have to get the tank cleaned out (currently on week two of the apple cider vinegar treatment).
Thanks guys and gals!!

 

[FinalImpact]

Got the pump reassembled, plugged into the bike"s harness and - ta da - it works. Now just have to get the tank cleaned out (currently on week two of the apple cider vinegar treatment).
Thanks guys and gals!!

Good job. What exactly did you replace? And did you test the pressure? Dirt in the PR making it leak will have you pulling it appart again...

Good luck w the cider treatment....

 

[erickz]

Just replaced the pump. Was able to clean everything else up nicely. Will do the pressure test soon.
Where is the paper clip to post pictures? I must be blind.

 

[FinalImpact]

You have to go into "Go Advanced" unless you host the picture elsewhere.

1) Reply
2) Go Advanced
3) Click on Paper Clip
4) Top Right -> ADD FILES
5) Browse (select files to post). Click }+} if more than one.
6) Click Upload button.
7) Click Insert Inline
8) Click Done.....

Something like that...

 

[erickz]

I shall endeavor to post pictures...but first: how do I get the pressure relief valve out??

 

[erickz]

The bike, the pump, the sludge!

 

[FinalImpact]

Thats fugly! Damn!

I did a copy paste - the link given has it.... two tabs. See below!

Inside the fuel pump:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
FZ6: 5VX-13907-02-00 / 5VX-13907-01-00
FZ6R: 20S-13907-00-00

End view, expand these locks to remove pressure regulator:

Pressure Regulator: FZ6 set at 36 PSI Debris trapped in the regulator will limit pressure as it creates a leak!

Inside the Electric Pump: They call it a turbine. Me, its the pump rotor. Debris wears it or jambs it solid. Once locked solid it burns up the motor.

R6 Fuel Pump Assembly: Note, the pump motor could be used, but the pressure regulator (46 PSI) and Return style system are not compatible with the FZ.
From left to right arrows: Pressure Regulator removed, float arm removed, return line barely visible. Locking tab is clearly visible on top of housing. Also notice the stainless looking cylinder with the wire, thats a capacitor to normalize the fuel reading.

Inside the fuel tank. I believe the right side is the spill drain while the center is the vent through the cap.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Symptoms of low or no fuel pressure:
Engine won't start - verify by adding a few drops to TB inlets. If it starts for a second, the fuel system is inoperable.
- Verify pump has power
- Verify pump primes
- Verify fuel injectors have battery voltage on one side
- Adding fuel to TB inlets allows engine to run momentarily. Note: syringes work good for this.

Symptoms of restricted fuel flow:
Engine starts and idles but will not rev quickly. With a kinked fuel hose it may run up to 4000 RPM OK but stumble when opened up further.
- Engine hesitates, stumbles, misfires, bucking - etc.

Plugged Cap Vent Line:
- Starts, idles, runs fine. On long continuous runs, i.e. ~ 25 miles or more, engine may starve for fuel.
- When opening the fuel tank lid, you hear a sucking sound.
- Will NOT cause an engine to not start if the CAP has been opened.
- Could lead to a No Start, if ridden a long distance, turned off, and then attempted restart within moments of shut down.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Pump Performance:
Operating Pressure: 15-90 PSI - final fuel pressure set by regulator
Flow: 140-160 Liter Per Hour, at 3.0Bar/13.5V
Voltage: 12V min.
FZ6 Specific: Fuel pressure: 250 kPa (36.3 psi) (2.5 kgf/cm²)

Basic Dimensions:
Overall Length (tip to tip): 4 1/2" (11.5cm)
Length of Pump Body Metal Case: 2 5/8" (6.6cm)
Pump Body Diameter: 1 1/2" (3.8cm)
Inlet Diameter: 5/16" (0.8cm)
Outlet Diameter: 5/16" (0.8cm)

Torque: FZ6 Specific Pump Assembly to Fuel Tank:
Fuel pump bolts: 4 Nm (0.4 m·kg, 2.9 ft·lb)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
TO REDUCE RISK OF BREAKING HIGH PRESSURE OUTLET
Move the LEFT SIDE DRAIN HOSE from the frame and route it between the tank and outlet as shown! This also reduces the likelihood of kinking the hose when the tank is lowered.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

View attachment 67629View attachment 67630The bike, the pump, the sludge!

Re your pump, did the bike sit for a long time W/O stabilizer or ?