Cyl 1 & 4 = no spark

[@nders]

Hi, my fz6sa 2006 won't fire on cylinder 1 & 4. I have tested both coils and all spark plugs on the wires going to the coil for cylinder 2 & 3 and they all work fine and creates a spark when held close to the frame, while holding down ignition button.
My thought is that it is the ECU that is causing the problem. But before going down that path, can it be anything else causing this problem??

Best regards, Anders

 

[Motogiro]

You might have a bad coil. One coil for cylinders 1 and 4 and one coil for cylinders 2 and 3. If the engine won't fire on 1 and 4 and you see spark on 1 and 4 there could be a lost fuel injector signal. If there is no spark on 1 and 4 the ECU/ECM pins might be corroded or a lost control signal at the ECU/ECM. The ECU/ECM fires one coil for both cylinders at the same time. The ECU/ECM controls the ground side of the coils. Cylinders 1 and 4 fire both coils at the same time and Cylinders 2 and 3 are controlled the same way.The ECU also controls the ground side of the injectors. Cylinders 1 and 4 fire both injectors at the same time. Cylinders 2 and 3 are controlled the same way. One side of each injector should be at 12 vdc nominal voltage. This wire color is red with a blue tracer. The red with black tracer wire is the ground signal for the 1 and 4 injectors. You should see the voltage at the red with black tracer wire fluctuate. If you don't, check the plug at the ECU/ECM. Inspect the pins to make sure there is no corrosion. Let us know what you find.

 

[ozgurakman]

did you checked cables for 1&4 cly's coil?

 

[@nders]

Hi guys. and thanks for the quick answers. I sounds like I have made myself a bit unclear.
The two coils(1,4 & 2,3) are both connected to the ECU (i guess) by a plus and minus wire. If I connect any of the coils or spark plugs to the wires meant for the coil 2,3 I get a spark.
If I on the other hand connect any of the coils or spark plugs to the wires meant for the coil 1,4 I get nothing. I therefor know that my coils and plugs are fine. and the fault must lay somewhere down the system.

 

[FinalImpact]

Did you swap the power and ground leads at the coil pack? This would hopefully tell you a few things:
1) Your coil is bad, if the 2/3 coil fires when connected to 1/4 ECU/+12V
2) Your 1/4 wiring is compromised
3) Bad news, but your ECU may be damaged.

Regardless, do connect the Good Coil to the Suspect 1&4 connectors and verify operation as you have done before!

INSPECT ALL connection under the tank. Also there is the Diagnostic test which allows you to fire 1/4 and 2/3 coils.... --> post 6 DIAGNOSTIC MODE, ERROR CODES, SENSOR OPERATION

**************************
SYSTEMS that can be Verified:
**************************
To activate, turn Engine Run switch from OFF to ON while mode is selected.
01: Throttle position sensor (throttle angle)
30: Ignition coil #1, #4
31: Ignition coil #2, #3
36: Injector #1, #4
37: Injector #2, #3
48: AI system solenoid
51: Radiator fan motor relay is activated every 5 seconds.
52: Headlight relay is activated every 5 seconds (2 seconds ON, 3 seconds OFF) - 2003+ model only.

*************************
The ECM has the ability to verify some of the sensors and switches on the vehicle. When placed into diagnostic mode it can also display inactive error codes and some history as well as test both the ignition coils and the fuel injectors. For most of these tests, the FSM instruction the user to disconnect the Fuel Pump power (Green connector under the fuel tank).

Setting the diagnostic mode S2 Models:
1. Turn the main switch to “OFF” and set the engine stop switch to “STOP”.
2. Disconnect the wire harness coupler from the fuel pump (GREEN connector).
3. Simultaneously press and hold the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons, turn the main switch to “ON”, and continue to press the buttons for 8 seconds or more.
• All displays on the meter disappear except the clock and tripmeter displays.
• “dIAG” appears on the LCD meter.
4. Press the “SELECT” button to select the C0 adjustment mode “C0” or the diagnostic mode “dIAG”. US bikes will only display "dIAG", unless a jumper wire is grounding a pin in the harness to enable C0/C1 fuel trim adjustments.
5. After selecting “dIAG”, simultaneously press the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons for 2 seconds or more to execute the selection.
6. Set the engine stop switch to “OFF”.
7. Select the diagnostic code number that applies to the item that was verified with the fault code number by pressing the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons.

NOTE:
The diagnostic code number appears on the clock LCD (01–70).
• To decrease the selected diagnostic code number, press the “RESET” button. Press the “RESET” button for 1 second or longer to automatically decrease the diagnostic code numbers.
• To increase the selected diagnostic code number, press the “SELECT” button. Press the “SELECT” button for 1 second or longer to automatically increase the diagnostic code numbers.
8. Verify the operation of the sensor or actuator.
• Sensor operation
The data representing the operating conditions of the sensor appears on the trip LCD.
• Actuator operation
Set the engine stop switch to “RUN” to operate the actuator.
NOTE:
If the engine stop switch is set to “RUN”, set it to “OFF”, and then set it to “RUN” again.
9. Turn the main switch to “OFF” to cancel the diagnostic mode.

 

[iSteve]

If you get no spark from the 1/4 coil then the 1/4 coil is the problem. Plug the 1/4 coil primary wires into the 2/3 side and see if you get spark, no spark bad coil.

 

[@nders]

FinalImpact >> Not sure if that procedure is needed on my bike, as it already shows error codex when I turn on the bike. Anyway, I get error code 33 which is wire harness 1,4 but can also be ECU, so that didn't get me very far...?

 

[@nders]

Okay, so I measured the wires going from the ECU to the ignition coil 1,4. On mine it is two wires, one being red with a black stripe and the other one being orange with a black stripe.
Orange/black: approx 3.0 Ohm (Ohm setting on multimeter set to 200)
Red/black: Approx 874 Ohm (Ohm setting on multimeter set to 2.000)

I have no idea if this is good or bad? but at least it shows some kind of continuity.

/Anders

 

[Motogiro]

Okay, so I measured the wires going from the ECU to the ignition coil 1,4. On mine it is two wires, one being red with a black stripe and the other one being orange with a black stripe.
Orange/black: approx 3.0 Ohm (Ohm setting on multimeter set to 200)
Red/black: Approx 874 Ohm (Ohm setting on multimeter set to 2.000)

I have no idea if this is good or bad? but at least it shows some kind of continuity.

/Anders

In reference to your resistance measurement. One wire on each coil is red with a black tracer this is the supply voltage from the kill switch. You can not do an ohms/resistance test on this wire measuring between the ECU and coils. That is a different path and you will be getting the wrong result. Measure only the orange with black tracer wire. Any of these measurements should be done with the ECU unplugged. You can also measure the other coil wire (grey with a black tracer and see if you get the same reading. I don't know what meter you have or what the lead resistance might be before you measure the wire resistance. Short the meter leads together and whatever reading you get you should subtract from your final reading. For example: If you short your test meter leads and you get 1 ohm resistance and then get 3 ohms resistance when you measure your wire then your reading will be 3 ohms minus 1 ohm which equals 2 ohms.

If you're satisfied the wire path to the ECU is good then test for voltage at the other wire going to the coil. With the key on and the kill switch on you should see 12 vdc nominal voltage. If you see the proper voltage turn the key off and disconnect the 2 wires to the coil and measure the coil primary winding resistance. I will see if I can find the coil winding resistance spec. but if there is no resistance you can bet the coil primary winding is open and is probably the source of your problem. Found the spec.: You should see 1.53 to 2.07 ohms resistance on the primary winding. If the primary coil winding is good you may have a problem with your ECU plug or the ECU itself. Good hunting!

Also if you're already seeing a code33 that says there's a problem related to the primary we won't look at secondary winding tests but when you've repaired the bike I would pull the plugs and insure the gaps are set to Yamaha's specification and not just the plug manufacturer's spec.

 

[FinalImpact]

Hi guys. and thanks for the quick answers. I sounds like I have made myself a bit unclear.
The two coils(1,4 & 2,3) are both connected to the ECU (i guess) by a plus and minus wire. If I connect any of the coils or spark plugs to the wires meant for the coil 2,3 I get a spark.
If I on the other hand connect any of the coils or spark plugs to the wires meant for the coil 1,4 I get nothing. I therefor know that my coils and plugs are fine. and the fault must lay somewhere down the system.

So you swapped the signal wires and know that both coils can fire but signal wires from 1&4 are inactive.
My previous post began at the same time as yours so, I missed seeing your new info.

As stated a valid test would be to OHM from Chassis ground to ECU Switched leads Grey Black / Orange Black. What do you get? If both the Red Black wires have power (+12V) now its a matter of verifying the integrity of the wires from the coils to the ECU. You can unplug the ECU and OHM from the Coil to the ECU the Switched leads Grey Black / Orange Black. They should read as a dead short of less than an 1.0Ohm. NOW OHM EACH WIRE TO GROUND and make sure they are not shorted to the chassis.

If this test shows continuity over the wires length AND its not shorted to chassis, well if you have power that points to the ECU as the source.

 

[@nders]

Hi guys, thank so much for the replies. I didn't get to do what you suggested, as I wanted to try out the diagnostic system for the bike.
As said it comes up with the error code 33, in the diagnostic chart it tells us to run diagnostic program 30. Which will just flash the spark plugs 5 times. There were of cause no flash, and I don't really know what the manual wants one to do now, as I by doing this just confirmed that there is no bang in cyl. 1 and 4....

By accident I tumbled into discussion about TPS's and that the target value should be, from closed to open, 17-100. Mine is 15-102. Could this have anything at all to do with the unfirering spark plugs?

 

[FinalImpact]

Hi guys, thank so much for the replies. I didn't get to do what you suggested, as I wanted to try out the diagnostic system for the bike.
As said it comes up with the error code 33, in the diagnostic chart it tells us to run diagnostic program 30. Which will just flash the spark plugs 5 times. There were of cause no flash, and I don't really know what the manual wants one to do now, as I by doing this just confirmed that there is no bang in cyl. 1 and 4....

By accident I tumbled into discussion about TPS's and that the target value should be, from closed to open, 17-100. Mine is 15-102. Could this have anything at all to do with the unfirering spark plugs?

No. No relationship there.

Next step = verify wires are not compromised!

1) OHM from Chassis ground to ECU Switched leads Grey Black & Orange Black. What do you get Grey_____ & Orange_____ Ohms?
2) Verify Red Black power +12V from 1&4 operate on 2&3 signal wire. i.e. stretch wires or more coils. Both should have +12V.
3) Unplug the ECU and coils; OHM from the Coil Switched lead Grey Black to the open ECU connectors Grey Black. They should read as a dead short of less than an 1.0 Ohm. REPEAT with ORANGE black wire.
4) OHM EACH Grey Black & Orange Black WIRE TO GROUND and make sure they are not shorted to the chassis! Note: Neither end is connected to anything during this test.
If this test shows continuity over the wires length AND its not shorted to chassis AND if you have +12V power to each coil, that points to the ECU as the source.

What I expect you to find is that that either the connector is damaged at the ECU or the ECU is defective. If Test #1 above returns totally different values like Orange is 100 ohms and Grey is 5000 ohms, the ECU is defective. Well assuming tests 2, 3, & 4 produce positive results.

28.Cylinder-#1/#4 ignition coil (Orange Black)
29.Cylinder-#2/#3 ignition coil (Grey Black)

 

[@nders]

No. No relationship there.

Next step = verify wires are not compromised!

1) OHM from Chassis ground to ECU Switched leads Grey Black & Orange Black. What do you get Grey_____ & Orange_____ Ohms?
Can you tell me what or where "chassis ground" is?
2) Verify Red Black power +12V from 1&4 operate on 2&3 signal wire. i.e. stretch wires or more coils. Both should have +12V.
Can you cut it out for me where to put the tester and if the ignition should be ON.
3) Unplug the ECU and coils; OHM from the Coil Switched lead Grey Black to the open ECU connectors Grey Black. They should read as a dead short of less than an 1.0 Ohm. REPEAT with ORANGE black wire.
This I got.
For red/black I got approx 300 ohm both times.
From grey/black to grey/black I got 2 Ohm
From orange/black to orange/black I got 2 Ohm
4) OHM EACH Grey Black & Orange Black WIRE TO GROUND and make sure they are not shorted to the chassis! Note: Neither end is connected to anything during this test.
If this test shows continuity over the wires length AND its not shorted to chassis AND if you have +12V power to each coil, that points to the ECU as the source.
What is meant by "wire to ground" and do I have to put the ignition to ON position.

What I expect you to find is that that either the connector is damaged at the ECU or the ECU is defective. If Test #1 above returns totally different values like Orange is 100 ohms and Grey is 5000 ohms, the ECU is defective. Well assuming tests 2, 3, & 4 produce positive results.

28.Cylinder-#1/#4 ignition coil (Orange Black)
29.Cylinder-#2/#3 ignition coil (Grey Black)

Hi, I am sorry, but electrics are not my strong side. See my comments above in blue.

/Anders

 

[Motogiro]

Hi, I am sorry, but electrics are not my strong side. See my comments above in blue.

/Anders

Chassis ground is a term meaning the engine or frame. The negative lead from the battery is wired to the engine and frame. This allows you to test circuits and use the engine or frame as the negative battery lead reference for many tests. You will want to use a conductive part that makes a good bare metal to metal contact with your probe.I usually use a stainless steel bolt on the engine or frame because it will not have paint on it.

The red with black tracer wire should be tested where it connects to each coil. Measure for 12 volts dc with the key on. You put the positive lead of your tester on the red with black tracer wire right at the coil terminal and the negative lead of your tester on any chassis ground. Make sure you're making good contact with your test leads! Turn the key on and make sure the red kill switch is set to on. You should hear your fuel pump prime. Do you see 12 vdc at the coil terminals that are attached to the red with black tracer wires? These are the wires that feed the coils.

Do not do an ohms test on the red with black tracer wire! Only test this wire for the 12vdc when the key is on! Make sure your meter is in the DC test mode.

It sounds like your ohms test on your grey with black tracer wire and your orange with black tracer wires is good. They should read about 1 or 2 ohms depending on your connectivity with test probes and wire length etc.

If these previous tests are good then do the resistance/ohms tests in your service manual for the coil in question. If you need further assistance we will be here!

 

[FinalImpact]

No. No relationship there.

Next step = verify wires are not compromised!

1) OHM from Chassis ground to ECU Switched leads Grey Black & Orange Black. What do you get Grey_____ & Orange_____ Ohms?
Can you tell me what or where "chassis ground" is?
FI) Chassis Ground is Negative Side of the Battery. The engine and frame are grounded to Negative (-) side of battery. Key OFF test.

2) Verify Red Black power +12V from 1&4 operate on 2&3 signal wire. i.e. stretch wires or more coils. Both should have +12V.
Can you cut it out for me where to put the tester and if the ignition should be ON.
FI) In this case, Key ON, Run switch on. Simply confirm the 1&4 wire does indeed have +12V. You could measure from ground to its power wire. Mind you if the ECU output is shorted to ground, the coils voltage will be lower than 12V as its sinking current. In this mode it can overheat and damage itself if left on too long. It would be like connecting it directly across the battery. Basically if you have the key on and connect and disconnect the power wire and the coil throws a spark, it implies the Signal Wire from the ECU is shorted to ground and it has power.

3) Unplug the ECU and coils; OHM from the Coil Switched lead Grey Black to the open ECU connectors Grey Black. They should read as a dead short of less than an 1.0 Ohm. REPEAT with ORANGE black wire.
This I got.
For red/black I got approx 300 ohm both times.
From grey/black to grey/black I got 2 Ohm

From orange/black to orange/black I got 2 Ohm }} So we know the signal wire to 1&4 is basically intact. This is Good. Your meter should be on the lowest range like 0 - 10 or 0 - 20 ohms. The value expected should be 0.20 Ohms or less.... Above Cliff hinted at Shorting the test leads together (touch them together, read the Ohm value while meter is on lowest scale), and Subtract this Value from the measured value.


4) OHM EACH Grey Black & Orange Black WIRE TO GROUND and make sure they are not shorted to the chassis! Note: Neither end is connected to anything (ECU OR COIL) during this test.
If this test shows continuity over the wires length AND its not shorted to chassis AND if you have +12V power to each coil, that points to the ECU as the source.
What is meant by "wire to ground" and do I have to put the ignition to ON position.
FI) Key Off. In Step 3 we verified the WIRE was connected from End to End. Now we want to know that the wire is not shorted to ground (Battery NEG). With It NOT connected to the COIL or ECU we place one test lead to GROUND (BAT NEG) and the other on the Signal Wire Orange Black. Your Ohm Meter should read Infinite or something greater than 100K ohms. Verify both leads read the same Orange and Grey.



What I expect you to find is that that either the connector is damaged at the ECU or the ECU is defective. If Test #1 above returns totally different values like Orange is 100 ohms and Grey is 5000 ohms, the ECU is defective. Well assuming tests 2, 3, & 4 produce positive results.

28.Cylinder-#1/#4 ignition coil (Orange Black)
29.Cylinder-#2/#3 ignition coil (Grey Black)

Hi, I am sorry, but electrics are not my strong side. See my comments above in blue.

/Anders

No Problem.... see Comments: FI) ....

EDIT: Test #1 is the most valuable test. ECU is connected during this test. ALSO, when done with this test - Look Closely at the ECU pins and connector. Is there any damage?

 

[Motogiro]

@ FinalImpact After he's done the 12vdc signal and wire continuity. I'd like see him to do a resistance test on the primary winding of the 1-4 coil to eliminate the possibility the the primary is open giving the #33 error code. Someone said he also has a service manual in PDF form in his mail box....

 

[FinalImpact]

Anders, you tested both coils, right? Isn't that what you said in the first post?

i.e. moved 1&4 to 2&3 and coil 1&4 operate throwing sparks from 2&3 control wires....

 

[Motogiro]

Any new news on this?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[FinalImpact]

Hi, I am sorry, but electrics are not my strong side. See my comments above in blue.

/Anders

Any new news on this?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I'm curious too!

Tks

 

[FinalImpact]

[MENTION=26612]@nders[/MENTION]

Any progress on this issue?