What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider education?

[Ssky0078]

Education is the most important thing. Always, but let's face it education on its own is not going to help you much if you decide to start doing stupid stuff out of peer pressure, to impress your buddies, a girl or for just the fun of it.

Education I believe would probably be the best weeding out factor for the squids. If they are not willing to get through mandatory number of education rider classes in addition to a complex multi part ride exam, they will never bother to get a license.

Even now, there's a large number of numbnuts here in NYC that ride their bikes on temporary permits ( which is illegal) or on regular driver's insurance. I don't even know who they are able to register/insure their bikes.

Ultimately it all comes down to enforcement. NYPD today has trouble with catching these retards who ride without M endorsements.




Look, I started small and as I got more comfortable and experienced I upgraded to a bigger bike.

This topic of whether starting on smaller bikes or getting bigger bikes has been beaten to death. I have expressed myself numerous times. Ultimately these topics are like oil threads, everybody has their XYZ brand that they will die defending.

Ultimately, I really couldn't care less. In my honest opinion even helmet laws should be abolished.

Get whatever bike you want, wear helmet/other gear or not.

I look at it as the nature doing its thing. Weeding out the gene pool, one SQUID at the time.

One thing I REALLY want is stricter enforcement of speeding laws.

Want to go 100mph go to the track. Otherwise you are just being an nuisance to other people who use these streets.

Yeah it's expensive, so what. You wanna feel the thrill of going fast? Do it in a place that won't get anybody else endangered.

I completely agree on letting Darwin sort it out. However, the draw back that it seems we both agree upon is that if one Darwin Award winner brings another person that works diligently on not being a Darwin winner really is not fair and why we need some type of guideline/restriction/law.

In regards to speed limits. I would rather have open speed highways like the autobahn. Or since we have so much tech in the roads that meter traffic and road conditions we design and electric speed limit sign system that adjust the road speed according to traffic flow, driving conditions, etc. That way in the middle of night you could fly at 100 mph because there are only 6 other cars on a road that was designed to land a jet. During heavy traffic it drops to 45 so that people are given a good speed to manage flow of traffic and decrease teh chance of not paying attention and rear ending someone.

"What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider education?"

Echoing lawlberg:

Proper rider education includes gearing up. Two birds. One stone.

Pook you are on fire today. All your posts this morning are spot on

 

[Blocky]

yeah the helmet locks are almost a joke, I was curious to see how long it would take to pick. I only use it if I am going inside somewhere for ~1 hr. Even then I hate leaving it.


Does NJ require you to leave the helemt on the bike? or they require you to wear one THUS forcing you to stow it on the bike?

You're just required to wear one in NJ. But if you're riding your motorcycle to the beach you only have two choices: Let it sit on your towel so someone can steal it while you're swimming, or let it sit on the motorcycle so someone can cut it off while you're on the beach. There are plenty of other things you could be doing where it's just not practical to take your helmet with you too: Walking around on the boardwalk, playing mini-golf, going to a water park, etc.

I ordered a cable lock since the FZ6 helmet lock is so weak, but I've heard stories of people pissing in helmets or messing with them in other douchey ways, so I'm still uncomfortable leaving it out of my sight for such a long time.

 

[Erci]

You're just required to wear one in NJ. But if you're riding your motorcycle to the beach you only have two choices: Let it sit on your towel so someone can steal it while you're swimming, or let it sit on the motorcycle so someone can cut it off while you're on the beach. There are plenty of other things you could be doing where it's just not practical to take your helmet with you too: Walking around on the boardwalk, playing mini-golf, going to a water park, etc.

I ordered a cable lock since the FZ6 helmet lock is so weak, but I've heard stories of people pissing in helmets or messing with them in other douchey ways, so I'm still uncomfortable leaving it out of my sight for such a long time.

So I guess you're one of the riders who choose to not wear a helmet (which is legal in PA) and you're forced to wear one when you cross into NJ, right?
How about other motorcycle-specific gear.. do you wear any?
Have you taken any MSF courses? (I know BRC is free in PA).

 

[FinalImpact]

This may be wrong, but if you don't spring for proper gear to protect you the rider, be sensible enough to at least take out a good life insurance policy and keep your Medical up to date! No reason your family should suffer because you're an idiot. I guess that's moot point eh?

OP - to your point, all the gear in the world won't protect senseless acts of stupidity. Training is needed, yet somehow many don't see their life as being important enough to take the time to learn important rules and wear gear that would reduce impact should some unfortunate event occur.

 

[Yasko]

Rider education made me not want to ride without gear.:rockon:

 

[DownrangeFuture]

Being mostly libertarian, I feel that people should have the choice to do what they want. But I also realize we live in a world with other people. If you want to ride sans helmet, whatever, but the law should prohibit you from getting any sort of free health care. Even if that means your widow or poor mother has to pay for it.

And I shouldn't have to pay higher insurance because every idiot 19 year old new rider buys a GSXR to look cool. And the salesman had to show him how to operate a clutch and where the throttle was. Seriously, my VStar 1100 insurance was $120 a year, with full coverage, and $200 deductables. I pay more than that a month on my GSXR.

As far as education, driver's license tests and classes have become a joke. Motorcycle classes aren't any better. People feel that it's their "right" to operate a motor vehicle. Which, to a certain point it is. But we should hold people to a reasonable level of competency if they want to drive a 1 ton wrecking ball around or a 300 pound rocket on wheels around other innocent people. There's a very good reason that cars are safer than ever, and your chances of surviving an accident are at all time highs, yet the number of deaths on the roads annually has continued to climb. Drive/ride like an idiot on private land, be safe on public roads filled with other people's kids. And my MSF course was great, but afterwards I was upset. There is no way any reasonable adult would say the MSF course actually prepared him to ride on the street. It's a step up from learning from the sales guy, but is way too short on practice and such to be truly useful. Not to mention the "everyone passes" mantra most schools adhere to.

Half the people on the road today couldn't pass a driving test 20 years ago. I see people every day that can't even stay in their own lane when they're actually paying attention. We just fired 3 people here at my job because they couldn't pass the company driving test. The requirements were to be able to maintain a proper following distance, stay in your lane, maintain a safe speed, and parallel park. It seems like at least one person in each new hire group has to retake the test, and we let one go every other group or so. It's just silly. And these are all licensed drivers with no tickets or at fault wrecks in the last 3 years.

So mandatory safety requirements just seem to make people more reckless and less attentive because there's less risk. I fail to see how forcing gear on riders would cause a different response.

Education is lacking all around (in all aspects, not just driving), and that should be improved. Forcing a smaller bike on new riders in the EU goes along with mandatory rider training. From what I understand, each time a rider wants to jump up a tier, another class is required. Along with a safe riding record.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

. Removing a helmet law could very well weed out a lot of idiots.
.

You're damn right! That's why I'm pretty neutral when it comes to this topic. I now live in a state that has no helmet law.

I really don't like leaving my helmet sitting on my bike just waiting to be stolen by the first person with a tiny pair of bolt cutters or scissors, especially since it costs several hundred dollars and isn't sold anymore. But thanks to the clowns running NJ, I have no choice.

You're damn right too. That's why I always take my helmet with me, I never leave it with the bike, lock or no lock. You also shouldn't have the so called "Clowns" dictate your safety. Just take the helmet with you, or buy a cheap Bilt helmet from CG. You can't regrow a brain.

As far as the topic of gear versus education. It starts with Law Enforcement!

The LEO"s are the ones responsible for making this all a big mess. Whenever they pull over a rider and they are caught riding dirty for whatever reason, no insurance, registration, endorsement and addition to adding all the fix it tickets from illegal mods, they need to impound the bikes right on the spot. Get them off the streets! The rider will not learn anything by having the cop just right out a fine and let him ride away. Getting the bike actually towed and impounded, and add up the fines can easlily go over $1,000.

You can sweaten the deal by creating laws that require anyone caught riding dirty can't get their bike back from impound until they take a court mandated motorcycle safety course. A successful completion for most courses will result in an automatic endorsement anyways.

The point is, the penalty for riding dirty is rarely enforced. LEO's are just too lazy to do all the papwerwork and are impatient to wait for the tow to arrive. Yes, they priorities. Hey, I'm needed elsewhere so I can't take the extra time, well then don't pull over motorcycles from the first place if you're not going to do anything about it! But in reality, they could possibly be preventing a bigger mess by preventing a serious crash or fatality, which would involve more people, resources and time.

 

[Ssky0078]

You can sweaten the deal by creating laws that require anyone caught riding dirty can't get their bike back from impound until they take a court mandated motorcycle safety course. A successful completion for most courses will result in an automatic endorsement anyways.

I like this. In AZ we have a mandatory law that you take a driver safety class if you run a red light. AZ has one of the highest fatality rates because of red light running and someone had a very similar idea to what Vegas is mentioning. Since implementation I believe the number of fatalities has gone down. I think if you get caught running a red, a second or third time then it is mandatory suspension of license.

 

[Neal]

Y
The LEO"s are the ones responsible for making this all a big mess. Whenever they pull over a rider and they are caught riding dirty for whatever reason, no insurance, registration, endorsement and addition to adding all the fix it tickets from illegal mods, they need to impound the bikes right on the spot. Get them off the streets! The rider will not learn anything by having the cop just right out a fine and let him ride away. Getting the bike actually towed and impounded, and add up the fines can easlily go over $1,000.

You would be adding a massive incentive to run from the cops. I am a mild mannered rider and my bike is the most prized possession I have in life. If I was ever put in a situation where I knew my bike was going to be taken away from me. I don't know if I could just passively accept that.

 

[Blocky]

So I guess you're one of the riders who choose to not wear a helmet (which is legal in PA) and you're forced to wear one when you cross into NJ, right?
How about other motorcycle-specific gear.. do you wear any?
Have you taken any MSF courses? (I know BRC is free in PA).

I took the MSF course before I got my bike, and I wear full gear (including high-viz jacket and helmet) whenever I'll be going on a fast and/or dangerous road -- "fast" to me being 35 MPH speed limit or above. I just don't want to leave my helmet out of my sight for long periods of time because it would cost at least $550 to replace it. I wanted something DOT + SNELL approved in a solid neon high-viz color, so Arai's RX-Q was basically the only option.

The little town I go to in the summer is all square blocks with a max speed limit of 25 MPH. It's kind of ridiculous to be forced to wear a helmet when you're riding there.

I just noticed RevZilla has them back in stock though... I was even more worried about it when it was unlisted the last time I checked

 

[Susan]

I agree that OP missed the most important requirement for safety: having a brain and using it.

As far as enforcement goes: I know people who ride/drive without having a license or insurance, and they're menaces on the road. No brains on the road or off.

As for gear: I agree with the person who said wear what you want but don't expect anyone top pick up the tab for you when you get hurt. No brains, no gear, right?

This thread is giving me PMS.

 

[Hellgate]

Without a doubt a helmet. 30 years ago I got into trouble with a 35hp Yamaha TX500. Lowsided it under a Dodge Dart that had a steel I beam for a bumper. My helmet gloves and jacket saved my hide.

 

[Neal]

The only thing that is important is allowing people to do what they want with their lives.

If what your saying makes sense then you'll just go find a hole in a mountain mine some ore and figure out how to build an engine yourself because you really don't need anyone telling you what the rules are.

I don't follow.

I do not see how allowing people to do what they want translates into forcing people to mine ore to make a motorcycle if he/she prefers to buy them at the store.

However, I can tell that allowing people to do what they want with their lives is a reason we have motorcycles today.

Take Nicolaus Otto he had grown up on a farm and was a traveling salesman selling tea, coffee, and sugar. That does not look like the resume of a man that would make of one the most world changing inventions. While traveling he developed an interest in technology, specifically early engines designs.

Fortunately, he didn't have anyone telling him was unqualified and uneducated so he wouldn't be allowed to work with engines because it wouldn't be safe. Well, he went ahead and created the first effective gas motor engine.

He built the first 4-stroke (otto-cycle engine) and put it on a motorcycle.

 

[dxh24]

What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider educatio

I have to go with education and proper use of safe riding... Gear is important but avoiding bad situations I'd even more so.

 

[fb40dash5]

Re: What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider educatio

You can kill yourself just fine with a helmet on while riding a 250. Certainly wearing a helmet, and other gear, will go a long way toward living through a crash. But only education/training and experience will help avoid that crash in the first place. Not that it's a substitute for wearing the gear.

I'm not a fan of telling anyone to do/not do anything that has no real impact on anybody else. Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, 48oz. sodas, I don't care, repeal them all. I'm wearing a helmet whether Johnny law tells me to or not, because I don't want my head being road pizza in almost any wreck. I wore my seatbelt before it was required too, because it's common sense. A very convincing argument could be made that a whole bargeload of the US's problems stem from a lack of common sense, and trying to legislate common sense, so if those without it wish to remove themselves from the gene pool, I say gopher it!

What a shocker that a guy from NYC thinks Euro-style "reduced power" laws would do anything. Just like banning large sodas, 7 round magazines, and $4.50 a pack taxes on smokes work so awesome, right? Oh, and don't forget trying to raise the age to buy smokes to 21 to discourage smoking... because studies show most people who smoke start around 18... the current age to buy them.

He who sacrifices essential liberty for temporary safety will lose both, and deserves neither.

 

[dxh24]

What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider educatio

You can kill yourself just fine with a helmet on while riding a 250. Certainly wearing a helmet, and other gear, will go a long way toward living through a crash. But only education/training and experience will help avoid that crash in the first place. Not that it's a substitute for wearing the gear.

I'm not a fan of telling anyone to do/not do anything that has no real impact on anybody else. Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, 48oz. sodas, I don't care, repeal them all. I'm wearing a helmet whether Johnny law tells me to or not, because I don't want my head being road pizza in almost any wreck. I wore my seatbelt before it was required too, because it's common sense. A very convincing argument could be made that a whole bargeload of the US's problems stem from a lack of common sense, and trying to legislate common sense, so if those without it wish to remove themselves from the gene pool, I say gopher it!

What a shocker that a guy from NYC thinks Euro-style "reduced power" laws would do anything. Just like banning large sodas, 7 round magazines, and $4.50 a pack taxes on smokes work so awesome, right? Oh, and don't forget trying to raise the age to buy smokes to 21 to discourage smoking... because studies show most people who smoke start around 18... the current age to buy them.

He who sacrifices essential liberty for temporary safety will lose both, and deserves neither.

Nailed it

 

[SweaterDude]

I agree that it should be mandatory for riders to start on under powered bikes. A 250 can still get someone killed if they're not educated and don't wear gear, but it's a lot less likely than any race ready bike. I think that the gear goes along with education and experience.

i think more should be taken into account. i think there should be some sort of a test that categorizes you based on your skill. also i think engine size should be a different standard for cruisers vs. sportbikes. If you pass the said test at a satisfactory level you can go up to say 500cc (many great 500s w/o too much power), but if you pass with flying colors you should be able to go up to 700cc (allows for 650s and 675s but not 750s). but for cruisers the same scores should classify ≤700cc and ≤1000cc respectively.

these #s are for a first bike. if somebody has been riding off road and already has the skills to ride a bike effectively, i dont think they should have to ride a bike with half the power of what they are already capable of riding.

as far as helmets go, i think they should be mandatory only so when the retard who don't wear them take a passenger, the passenger's life safer than if not forced to wear a helmet. especially if Hardass McGee takes his 4yr old daughter for a ride and she's not wearing a helmet.

 

[Motogiro]

The only thing that is important is allowing people to do what they want with their lives.



I don't follow.

I do not see how allowing people to do what they want translates into forcing people to mine ore to make a motorcycle if he/she prefers to buy them at the store.

However, I can tell that allowing people to do what they want with their lives is a reason we have motorcycles today.

Take Nicolaus Otto he had grown up on a farm and was a traveling salesman selling tea, coffee, and sugar. That does not look like the resume of a man that would make of one the most world changing inventions. While traveling he developed an interest in technology, specifically early engines designs.

Fortunately, he didn't have anyone telling him was unqualified and uneducated so he wouldn't be allowed to work with engines because it wouldn't be safe. Well, he went ahead and created the first effective gas motor engine.

He built the first 4-stroke (otto-cycle engine) and put it on a motorcycle.

There are rules. These rules go far back in your life.
Otto just didn't come up with an idea. He had to learn the rules and adhere to them to create what he was after. We abide by rules everyday and we are not free to do as we please. We try to be as free as possible which seems to impinge on the freedom and safety of others.

Otto built on the collective knowledge of others before him. His resume should include a lot of free thinking men before him that followed a science. But wait...that science has rules! So does the science of probability.......

The History of the Automobile - Gas Engines

One other thing...Why aren't you riding with your SD brethren tomorrow! :BLAA: http://www.600riders.com/forum/im-going-ride-you-comin/48704-san-diego-fook-lets-ride-4-27-13-a.html

 

[Neal]

There are rules. These rules go far back in your life.
Otto just didn't come up with an idea. He had to learn the rules and adhere to them to create what he was after. We abide by rules everyday and we are not free to do as we please. We try to be as free as possible which seems to impinge on the freedom and safety of others.

Otto built on the collective knowledge of others before him. His resume should include a lot of free thinking men before him that followed a science. But wait...that science has rules! So does the science of probability.......

The History of the Automobile - Gas Engines

One other thing...Why aren't you riding with your SD brethren tomorrow! :BLAA: http://www.600riders.com/forum/im-going-ride-you-comin/48704-san-diego-fook-lets-ride-4-27-13-a.html

There are no "rules" in science. Science recognizes no authority and for that very reason it was hated during its emergence by Royalty and institutionalized religion leading to the Enlightenment Era. In science nothing is sacred.

As far as riding goes.. I am always up so late on fridays. I don't see myself walking up.