What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider education?

[Erci]

This stems from the "US moto deaths on the rise" thread. Clearly, a rider is far more likely to die in a crash if he is not wearing a helmet. But do you think it makes sense to force people to wear helmets to "save" them while it's OK for them to have zero clue how to ride (road tests in many states are an absolute joke.. they have nothing to do with proving one can be safe on the road).

Discuss opcorn:

 

[PosterFZ6]

I think having a mandatory restriction on the power of the sportsbike would be a great start.

A 39hp bike is less likely to get you in trouble and it will teach you how to maneuver or rather be comfortable with your bike and learn all of its limitations etc.

And let's face it, you don't need a 100hp motorcycle to commute in the city. though highway's might be different. Still I did just fine on a 250cc Rebel on the highway doing 75mph.

You want a fast bike with no restrictions go for a track day.

Helmet should be mandatory. That's it.

Gov't don't need to stick its nose into everything.

You fall once, you will learn and start to wear gear. If you don't, then let's face it you are not exactly the smartest person in the gene pool. I am sure Darwin award will be worth it though.

 

[Neal]

This stems from the "US moto deaths on the rise" thread. Clearly, a rider is far more likely to die in a crash if he is not wearing a helmet. But do you think it makes sense to force people to wear helmets to "save" them while it's OK for them to have zero clue how to ride (road tests in many states are an absolute joke.. they have nothing to do with proving one can be safe on the road).

Discuss opcorn:

The only thing that is important is allowing people to do what they want with their lives.

 

[JoeSTL]

I think having a mandatory restriction on the power of the sportsbike would be a great start.

A 39hp bike is less likely to get you in trouble and it will teach you how to maneuver or rather be comfortable with your bike and learn all of its limitations etc.

And let's face it, you don't need a 100hp motorcycle to commute in the city. though highway's might be different. Still I did just fine on a 250cc Rebel on the highway doing 75mph.

You want a fast bike with no restrictions go for a track day.

Helmet should be mandatory. That's it.

Gov't don't need to stick its nose into everything.

You fall once, you will learn and start to wear gear. If you don't, then let's face it you are not exactly the smartest person in the gene pool. I am sure Darwin award will be worth it though.

I agree that it should be mandatory for riders to start on under powered bikes. A 250 can still get someone killed if they're not educated and don't wear gear, but it's a lot less likely than any race ready bike. I think that the gear goes along with education and experience.

 

[JoeSTL]

The only thing that is important is allowing people to do what they want with their lives.

And yet, you can get a ticket for driving your car without a seat belt. We don't live in a world today that lets people do what they want, when others are around them.

 

[Erci]

I think having a mandatory restriction on the power of the sportsbike would be a great start.

Sure it's a good idea and it may help prevent some crashes. Let's consider most common motorcycle crashes though: when it's single vehicle, it's bad cornering judgement (too much speed for current skill level followed by panic reaction); when it's multiple vehicle, it's the cager making a left turn in front of rider.
What would help most in either scenario? Helmet, power restriction or education?

 

[Ssky0078]

I think having a mandatory restriction on the power of the sportsbike would be a great start.

And let's face it, you don't need a 100hp motorcycle to commute in the city. though highway's might be different. Still I did just fine on a 250cc Rebel on the highway doing 75mph.

You want a fast bike with no restrictions go for a track day.

Helmet should be mandatory. That's it.

Gov't don't need to stick its nose into everything.

You fall once, you will learn and start to wear gear. If you don't, then let's face it you are not exactly the smartest person in the gene pool. I am sure Darwin award will be worth it though.

Could not disagree with you more. The cc/hp argument based on size alone is just ridiculous to me. A .22 caliber bullet can kill just the same as a .45. The damage from a non-fatal .22 is often a lot less than the damage of a .45 in a non-fatal gun injury. So a 250cc bike can get you killed or just mildly injured and a 1000cc supersport can get you killed or just seriously hurt. The whole point is that it's who is holding the gun/throttle and how well they know how to use it that matters the most.

I follow a number of UK motovloggers and the "P" (just passed) and "L" (learners) license plates that people have to use so that it's indicated they are new drivers is crazy, but may be helpful. Also I think they have a hp restriction for the first year. To be honest, I think I would have said screw it to motorcycling if I had to wait some arbitrary amount of time to get the FREEDOM to buy what I want

And to just say "go for a track day" isn't as easy as just "go for a track day". You have your track day fee, $250-350 around here. Depending on the track organization you have to provide your own leathers or attachable 2 piece gear. Some track day groups may have some leathers to be used but sharing nut sweat with someone else may just be a little to far for a lot o us. Basically to get on the track you are at the cheapest amount around $300 and upwards of $1500 depending on what you have to provide on your own, etc. And never mind how much you're going to mess up your tires and require a new set for around $300-400.

The only thing that is important is allowing people to do what they want with their lives.

Agreed. If someone wants to kill themselves on a motorcycle by being a squid and not wearing a helmet, it really sucks, but they are responsible adults. Hopefully their poor choices don't ruin the lives of the people around them.

Sure it's a good idea and it may help prevent some crashes. Let's consider most common motorcycle crashes though: when it's single vehicle, it's bad cornering judgement (too much speed for current skill level followed by panic reaction); when it's multiple vehicle, it's the cager making a left turn in front of rider.
What would help most in either scenario? Helmet, power restriction or education?

I can attest to the first type of crash first hand. I had only had the BRC at the time. I came in too hot and didn't know how to trail brake. I just gave up and committed to eating sand. I wish I had taken the ARC because I learned the techniques that would have allowed me to fly right through that corner.

As to the second crash type scenario the only time I ever have anyone pull out in front of me thus far is when I was going greater than 10 mph over the posted speed limit. At about that range it seems that the rate of speed I'm traveling and what the driver presumes people will be driving on the road doesn't compute and they think it's safe to go. As long as I am around 5-7 mph over the posted speed limit then I don't have any issue with people pulling in front of me. Also, because of the BRC I have really focused on lane position. I am constantly scanning the road as far ahead as possible and adjusting left to right or right to left to make me more visible to cars that may pull off a side street in front of me or take the dreaded left in front of me. Also I will be a dick sometimes and turn on the high beam at someone that may turn in front of me. I don't flash but straight turn on the high beam and It often freezes them in their tracks.

So I would hands down say the most important thing is Rider Education, very closely followed by Helmets. In my first crash which was only at like 10mph when I went down, I have no doubt my helmet saved my life because I didn't dash my brains out on the rocks I hit. But the rider education I did have at the time allowed me to 'safely' crash rather than flying off a cliff to the rocks below. So, probably equally good for staying alive is Education and Helmets.

ERCI you left out the accident that has the highest ratio of fatality to accident. That is getting hit from behind while stopped. I think it is only like 3% (maybe 5%) and it accounts for 33% of the fatalities. I would rather have filtering and lane splitting and it taught in the rider education classes. But, that's probably light years from now that states will catch on.

Enforcement
The next big issue is enforcement if you decide to create a policy to reduce the number of motorcycle deaths. I think the Helmet law would be the easiest to enforce, even if it is those stupid skull pans that HD guys wear it still had a chance to save a life, maybe not a face but those are some ugly bastards anyways. So, a helmet law I would have no problem with. I have only ridden once without a helmet and it was in my neighborhood to the gas station for a soda, I didn't go faster than 20 and I justified it to myself by saying that I can ride my bicycle 15-20 mph so it would be the same risk. If I had to worry about a $200-ish ticket I would never do it.

Enforcing rider education may be more difficult or easier depending on how it's setup. I grew up in the Washington state. In order to get your drivers license at 16 you had to take and pass drivers ed then go to the DMV to take and pass the test. If you didn't want to do drivers ed you had to wait until 18 and take the test at the DMV. So, I would definitely agree to a mandatory BRC for riders under the age of 18. I live in AZ now and the DMV motorcycle endorsement test is actually rather difficult. I've spoke to a number of people that failed it the first time at the DMV and then they went to do the BRC because you can take the motorcycle endorsement exam at the end. I think having/forcing people to take the BRC is definitely fair. I mean you hear people complain about drivers ed but the people do it in the end.

 

[Ssky0078]

And let's face it, you don't need a 100hp motorcycle to commute in the city. though highway's might be different. Still I did just fine on a 250cc Rebel on the highway doing 75mph.

Let's face it commuting on a 100hp motorcycle on the freeway is a lot more safe and easier than on a 40hp motorcycle otherwise you'd still have that rebel and not be on an Fz6 forum. When I commute which for much of the day the average speed is 70-75 and the speeders are going around 85 I can keep up and move in and around traffic with ease. I can take charge of where I'm going to be, thus taken my safety into my own hands. On a little 40hp bike I would have to do my best Buddha impersonation to find piece with not moving while praying to god that I don't get wiped out from behind or the side or being cut off because I'm a lame duck in the middle of the river of traffic.

I rode out to CA with a guy on a Ninja 250. He was struggling with getting through traffic, maintaining speed, dealing with the wind. I had my 130hp motorcycle and had a much easier time. I only had a difficult time when we got into some nasty cross wind but still had an easier go of it than he did.

 

[PosterFZ6]

Sure it's a good idea and it may help prevent some crashes. Let's consider most common motorcycle crashes though: when it's single vehicle, it's bad cornering judgement (too much speed for current skill level followed by panic reaction); when it's multiple vehicle, it's the cager making a left turn in front of rider.
What would help most in either scenario? Helmet, power restriction or education?

Education is the most important thing. Always, but let's face it education on its own is not going to help you much if you decide to start doing stupid stuff out of peer pressure, to impress your buddies, a girl or for just the fun of it.

Education I believe would probably be the best weeding out factor for the squids. If they are not willing to get through mandatory number of education rider classes in addition to a complex multi part ride exam, they will never bother to get a license.

Even now, there's a large number of numbnuts here in NYC that ride their bikes on temporary permits ( which is illegal) or on regular driver's insurance. I don't even know who they are able to register/insure their bikes.

Ultimately it all comes down to enforcement. NYPD today has trouble with catching these retards who ride without M endorsements.

Could not disagree with you more. The cc/hp argument based on size alone is just ridiculous to me. A .22 caliber bullet can kill just the same as a .45. The damage from a non-fatal .22 is often a lot less than the damage of a .45 in a non-fatal gun injury. So a 250cc bike can get you killed or just mildly injured and a 1000cc supersport can get you killed or just seriously hurt. The whole point is that it's who is holding the gun/throttle and how well they know how to use it that matters the most.

I follow a number of UK motovloggers and the "P" (just passed) and "L" (learners) license plates that people have to use so that it's indicated they are new drivers is crazy, but may be helpful. Also I think they have a hp restriction for the first year. To be honest, I think I would have said screw it to motorcycling if I had to wait some arbitrary amount of time to get the FREEDOM to buy what I want

And to just say "go for a track day" isn't as easy as just "go for a track day". You have your track day fee, $250-350 around here. Depending on the track organization you have to provide your own leathers or attachable 2 piece gear. Some track day groups may have some leathers to be used but sharing nut sweat with someone else may just be a little to far for a lot o us. Basically to get on the track you are at the cheapest amount around $300 and upwards of $1500 depending on what you have to provide on your own, etc. And never mind how much you're going to mess up your tires and require a new set for around $300-400.



Agreed. If someone wants to kill themselves on a motorcycle by being a squid and not wearing a helmet, it really sucks, but they are responsible adults. Hopefully their poor choices don't ruin the lives of the people around them.



I can attest to the first type of crash first hand. I had only had the BRC at the time. I came in too hot and didn't know how to trail brake. I just gave up and committed to eating sand. I wish I had taken the ARC because I learned the techniques that would have allowed me to fly right through that corner.

As to the second crash type scenario the only time I ever have anyone pull out in front of me thus far is when I was going greater than 10 mph over the posted speed limit. At about that range it seems that the rate of speed I'm traveling and what the driver presumes people will be driving on the road doesn't compute and they think it's safe to go. As long as I am around 5-7 mph over the posted speed limit then I don't have any issue with people pulling in front of me. Also, because of the BRC I have really focused on lane position. I am constantly scanning the road as far ahead as possible and adjusting left to right or right to left to make me more visible to cars that may pull off a side street in front of me or take the dreaded left in front of me. Also I will be a dick sometimes and turn on the high beam at someone that may turn in front of me. I don't flash but straight turn on the high beam and It often freezes them in their tracks.

So I would hands down say the most important thing is Rider Education, very closely followed by Helmets. In my first crash which was only at like 10mph when I went down, I have no doubt my helmet saved my life because I didn't dash my brains out on the rocks I hit. But the rider education I did have at the time allowed me to 'safely' crash rather than flying off a cliff to the rocks below. So, probably equally good for staying alive is Education and Helmets.

ERCI you left out the accident that has the highest ratio of fatality to accident. That is getting hit from behind while stopped. I think it is only like 3% (maybe 5%) and it accounts for 33% of the fatalities. I would rather have filtering and lane splitting and it taught in the rider education classes. But, that's probably light years from now that states will catch on.

Enforcement
The next big issue is enforcement if you decide to create a policy to reduce the number of motorcycle deaths. I think the Helmet law would be the easiest to enforce, even if it is those stupid skull pans that HD guys wear it still had a chance to save a life, maybe not a face but those are some ugly bastards anyways. So, a helmet law I would have no problem with. I have only ridden once without a helmet and it was in my neighborhood to the gas station for a soda, I didn't go faster than 20 and I justified it to myself by saying that I can ride my bicycle 15-20 mph so it would be the same risk. If I had to worry about a $200-ish ticket I would never do it.

Enforcing rider education may be more difficult or easier depending on how it's setup. I grew up in the Washington state. In order to get your drivers license at 16 you had to take and pass drivers ed then go to the DMV to take and pass the test. If you didn't want to do drivers ed you had to wait until 18 and take the test at the DMV. So, I would definitely agree to a mandatory BRC for riders under the age of 18. I live in AZ now and the DMV motorcycle endorsement test is actually rather difficult. I've spoke to a number of people that failed it the first time at the DMV and then they went to do the BRC because you can take the motorcycle endorsement exam at the end. I think having/forcing people to take the BRC is definitely fair. I mean you hear people complain about drivers ed but the people do it in the end.

Look, I started small and as I got more comfortable and experienced I upgraded to a bigger bike.

This topic of whether starting on smaller bikes or getting bigger bikes has been beaten to death. I have expressed myself numerous times. Ultimately these topics are like oil threads, everybody has their XYZ brand that they will die defending.

Ultimately, I really couldn't care less. In my honest opinion even helmet laws should be abolished.

Get whatever bike you want, wear helmet/other gear or not.

I look at it as the nature doing its thing. Weeding out the gene pool, one SQUID at the time.

One thing I REALLY want is stricter enforcement of speeding laws.

Want to go 100mph go to the track. Otherwise you are just being an nuisance to other people who use these streets.

Yeah it's expensive, so what. You wanna feel the thrill of going fast? Do it in a place that won't get anybody else endangered.

 

[lawlberg]

There are some states, like Ohio, that have modified helmet laws which echo the difference between a novice rider and an experienced one.

Here you can get your license pretty easily, I got mine without knowing much at all, hadn't taken a MSF course, just learned and had close calls on my permit. The first two years you are on a full license you are required to wear a helmet. I doubt that a cop here will run your tags and say, he's a new rider and not wearing a helmet, but he could give you a ticket for that, or if he pulls you over for another reason.

I agree with most of the people here that helmet laws should be mandatory everywhere, and that there's no reason why you shouldn't rock the gear, but if a state is going to allow the squids and hogs out there to go out unprotected, giving them two years to learn how stupid that is is a good start.


To the point of the thread - Education foremost - in my experience, riders who understand the risks rock the gear.

PS. I rocked full leathers on my commute to work today.
PPS. It was a bit too chilly for jeans.

 

[aclayonb]

Education only works for intelligent riders. An individual that rider education will work for is someone who would figure it out anyway. Removing a helmet law could very well weed out a lot of idiots.

No restrictions on gear, unless imposed by your insurance company (which is a contract agreement between yourself and the company).

Uncontrollable accidents really make up about 1% of what happens on the road. The rest is the vehicle operator riding outside of the limits of their skill, the vehicles design/condition, the road's condition, or the limitations of traffic.

Too many things are listed as uncontrollable. Even when it is someone else's "fault", it is still usually preventable by a rider paying attention. If you want to turn off your brain and drive - get an SUV.

Of course, rider education and equipment restrictions in Indiana are virtually non-existant. You can get your license by going to the MSF course and riding a 19hp bike at less than 30mph for two short days.

 

[pookamatic]

"What do you think is more important: strict gear requirements or rider education?"

Echoing lawlberg:

Proper rider education includes gearing up. Two birds. One stone.

 

[derek533]

Too many things are listed as uncontrollable. Even when it is someone else's "fault", it is still usually preventable by a rider paying attention.

This applies to cars as well. I can't tell you how many accidents I've avoided in my car that would have not been my fault just by paying attention. Some accidents are just flat out unavoidable but a lot of them are easily avoided by waiting an extra second, staggering yourself in double left turn situations, watching for turning traffic, etc. That extra minute you gain is not worth the "what if". Oh, and God forbid it starts to rain some, then total idiot mode must be engaged in every car I see.

I get really pissed at my wife when we're at a red light, it turns green, and she says go as soon as it does. Just a couple of weeks ago, if I had listened to her, we would have been t-boned big time and perhaps even seriously hurt. She's since tamed down in the last couple of weeks, but it's starting to ramp up again and I have to remind her of what we avoided.

You could have the most common sense and intelligent person in the world but as soon as they get behind a wheel, everything goes out the window for whatever reason. Driving is a skill and takes concentration; it's not a time to tune out the world and vegetate. Do that at home when you're alone and no risk to anyone else.

 

[dpaul007]

Another vote for education. But as with schools, you'll have those who just won't care and do whatever they want.

 

[Baci]

Education. We dont need more laws telling us what we can and cant do.

If a stupid squid wants to do 130 MPH with no gear then I say good job sir, you might be a canidate for the Darwin award. Choose to be ingorant and I choose to be happy that the world has less morons. :rockon:

 

[Baci]

Education only works for intelligent riders. An individual that rider education will work for is someone who would figure it out anyway. Removing a helmet law could very well weed out a lot of idiots.

Intelligent riders dont want to learn something the hard way. Education is the fast track to have the knowlege to avoid mistakes.

 

[Blocky]

My vote goes to education. The purpose of law is to protect people from each other, not from themselves. I'm perfectly capable of weighing risks and making rational decisions for myself, as are all other adults with fully functioning brains.

I really don't like leaving my helmet sitting on my bike just waiting to be stolen by the first person with a tiny pair of bolt cutters or scissors, especially since it costs several hundred dollars and isn't sold anymore. But thanks to the clowns running NJ, I have no choice.

 

[Baci]

I really don't like leaving my helmet sitting on my bike just waiting to be stolen by the first person with a tiny pair of bolt cutters or scissors, especially since it costs several hundred dollars and isn't sold anymore. But thanks to the clowns running NJ, I have no choice.

yeah the helmet locks are almost a joke, I was curious to see how long it would take to pick. I only use it if I am going inside somewhere for ~1 hr. Even then I hate leaving it.


Does NJ require you to leave the helemt on the bike? or they require you to wear one THUS forcing you to stow it on the bike?

 

[motojoe122]

My vote goes to education. The purpose of law is to protect people from each other, not from themselves. I'm perfectly capable of weighing risks and making rational decisions for myself, as are all other adults with fully functioning brains.

I really don't like leaving my helmet sitting on my bike just waiting to be stolen by the first person with a tiny pair of bolt cutters or scissors, especially since it costs several hundred dollars and isn't sold anymore. But thanks to the clowns running NJ, I have no choice.

You do have a choice...
I chose to get a top case:thumbup:

 

[Motogiro]

The only thing that is important is allowing people to do what they want with their lives.

Let's try not to make this thread political.

Obviously, a Helmet and gear can help you survive but an education is what will help you keep wearing the gear.


I agree if you're living where there are no other people that are affected. The fact is we all benefit from civilization and the collective technologies that make the bike possible. If what your saying makes sense then you'll just go find a hole in a mountain mine some ore and figure out how to build an engine yourself because you really don't need anyone telling you what the rules are. That includes the collective culmination of knowledge and technology developed over many years. I agree there are many things that might make life better. One of them is the gear that helps me ride more the way I like to.

I guess what I really want to say is freedom is awesome!

Education is how we can get to freedom. It allows us to share ideas of what works and doesn't work regarding behavior and gear. Education brings us to wearing protective gear.