Triples, Twins, That's All

[iviyth0s]

It's really not about drag racing and more about rider usable power where the you ride most of the time. An I3 or V-twin is not heavier than the I4

If you took a scale and on one side of the scale you put 200 pound weight. On the other side you were going to put 200 pounds counter weight. Now you haven't put the 200 pounds counter weight on the scale yet. If you broke the 200 pounds counter weight into 50 pound segments and dropped each one separately in 2 second intervals eventually you would start lifting the 200 pound weight. Now think of the same scale with the same weight but instead you are going to drop two 100 pound segments at 1 second apart. In your mind does the lifting of the 200 pound weight occur faster with the 50 pound counter weight segments at 2 second intervals or 100 pound counter weight segments at 1 second intervals.

No I know haha, I was just addressing the debate of too much torque vs wheel spin (wasted torque), so I was saying more torque shouldn't be the only concern.

But yeah, more torque and lighter weight is never a bad thing.

Maybe I'll test out an 09 one day but only after I'm comfortable going flat out in 1st on the FZ6...because I know if I'm afraid of that, I'll assuredly be afraid to see what the 09 can do

If you are trying to say that an fz6 will run a better lap time than a lighter triple that pushes 20more hp and torque given the same riders skill set will leave you sorely dissapointed.

And I'm talking about a real track no drag, your power band starts way higher. Keeping it there or not. A higher power band will yield to a bike with a much lower on on any turn. I could take a curve at 3-4k and still produce more of everything than your 8-12.

Not trying to start a "my stuff better" but you can save weight by dropping a cylinder and upping the CC. Don't think that we are harlys just because we are closer by the cylinder scale.

And I will admit that the sounds of a high revving i4 is pure extasy, right up to the point I cross that hill and get a ticket lol.

Not saying that at all, just was addressing the drag/tire grip from a standstill issue. I'm just saying who cares when the limiting factor will always be the best tire, THEN torque, THEN hp.

I'm extremely intrigued by the new triples, I'd love to try one.

Though I wish they made a triple 600 or triple 300 for some sweet lightweight flick machines

 

[FZSexy]

just got home from a great ride, hauling ass. I4 wailing like a siren

made me think of this thread and not wonder about a triple or twin or whatever, any longer. anyone who has ever rode THIS bike (FZ6 forum) with verve knows the kick only a good 600cc I4 can provide

can the Yamaha triple provide similar? most likely. but i am starting to see that as a liter bike with one cylinder lopped off. it is in fact a bigger engine

Triumph gets the same performance out of a much smaller engine. what's up with that?

heck man forget the triple in this case, just give me the extra 100cc and give me back the cylinder and call it a day. who needs a big triple?

i like my tight little I4. its punchy as hell and damn fast. smooth and always ready to respond. it can dominate most any situation on the road and let out a great scream while doing so

i mean i hit 40mph in first gear in a flash and i can shift anytime i want up until then or beyond. does the engine "rev high," as i used to say in grade school? yeah, it does. but it is smooth and stable, and the engine handles every bit of it. i mean i like the feeling of this I4, no matter the "easy power" of a twin or balance of a triple

this bike has lot's of horsepower and it just keeps climbing and climbing. it never drops off until the very upper limit. the pull of the bike can be exhilarating

idk? all i can say is atm i could not imagine trading this bikes performance, I4 and all, for nearly anything else in its range

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 ^^^.

Speaking of torque vs HP, my old 2004 FJR (1300cc, I4) really had the best of both worlds. 145 hp at the crank.

That bike would easily and EVERY TIME power wheelie at 4,000 RPM (back off the throttle and nail it). That's less than half throttle on a 650 lb bike. A 9,000 RPM redline. So, yes, an I4 is VERY capable of high torque. On the FJR forum, the debate goes on for a six speed. The bike doesn't need it. You can be cruising at 75MPH, don't downshift, nail the throttle and easily be in the 130's. On road trips, my freind and I would while getting onto the on ramp for the interstate (I75), usually run 125 on JUST the ramp and slow down for I75 traffic(fully lloaded, side cases, rear trunk case, etc)

With that said, an excellent bike all around however, for my riding style I love the FZ6 for the reasons above (exactly).


Something mentioned but not really paid much attention to re this thread.

Your comparing a 900cc engine to a 600cc engine, that's 33% LARGER. Lets compare apples to apples!!

Maybe comparing an FZ1, ONLY 100cc difference (10%) to the 09 would be a much more fairer comparison. Kinda closes the gap by quite a bit.

Let that comparison begin!

I've never ridden either, but have to doubt the 09 will walk away from the FZ1

 

[iSteve]

Just to be accurate the FZ 09 is 847cc.

I've owned a lot bikes over the years from 2 stroke triples to 1 liter rockets. And not one has disappointed me. All bikes are massive fun to ride and just when you think it can't get any better you get another and fall in love again.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just to be accurate the FZ 09 is 847cc.

I've owned a lot bikes over the years from 2 stroke triples to 1 liter rockets. And not one has disappointed me. All bikes are massive fun to ride and just when you think it can't get any better you get another and fall in love again.

It'd be great to have a an 847cc I4 to compare to, BUT the FZ1 is closer, CC wise (150cc vs 250cc's) and has a lower RPM range, closer to the 09 too.

 

[thisisbenji]

Just in case anyones wondering, I'm from Illinois... we have one thing and one thing only, straight roads. That's why I tend to care more about straight line speed. Sure we have tracks, but daily riding, it's just straight. No canyons here.

I suppose comparing the FZ1 and FZ09 is a better idea. They're actually pretty close, if Cycleworld is to be believed the FZ1 is about a 1/10th quicker in the 1/4 mile. In that comparison I would almost certainly take the FZ09 as I like the styling and weight reduction. Although the FZ1 isn't really a bad bike for those that like the wind protection.

FZ1:
HP 130.7 hp @ 11,410 rpm
TQ 66.8 ft.-lb. @ 9350 rpm

FZ09:
HP 107.2 hp @ 10,120 rpm
TQ 61.5 lb.-ft. @ 8,480 rpm

The torque isn't even that far off, I have not looked at graphs, but I bet the torque is very similar across the curve with the FZ1 peaking slightly higher.

I'd be really curious to see how the out-of-the-box handling compares between the two. I know the FZ1 is heavier, but the FZ09 has bad throttle response and suspension....

The FZ1 can even be had for less cash then the FZ09

2013 Yamaha FZ1

 

[FZ09Bandit]

It's not the best, but you get used to it. I wouldn't be scared to face off in B mode

By comparison the bike that has 23extra horsepower isn't that much faster.

 

[thisisbenji]

It's not the best, but you get used to it. I wouldn't be scared to face off in B mode

By comparison the bike that has 23extra horsepower isn't that much faster.

Your forgetting 76 pounds heavier.

 

[Water Bear]

FZ1:
HP 130.7 hp @ 11,410 rpm
TQ 66.8 ft.-lb. @ 9350 rpm

FZ09:
HP 107.2 hp @ 10,120 rpm
TQ 61.5 lb.-ft. @ 8,480 rpm

The fz1 is 998 cc. Approximating that as 1000cc, the fz-09 being 847, we get that .847*130.7 = 110.7 and .847*66.8 = 56.58.

So the fz-09 is developing slightly less horsepower than a "scaled down" fz-01 engine but more torque. That's 3.1% lower horsepower than expected, and about 8.7% more torque.

 

[thisisbenji]

Well, if your calculations are correct. It sounds like a 850cc I3 is the way to go over a 850cc I4 for street use.

 

[FZSexy]

how about someone take a look / compare with the engine in the FZ8? 50cc smaller then the triple

however the maths is starting to confuzzle me

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

how about someone take a look / compare with the engine in the FZ8? 50cc smaller then the triple

however the maths is starting to confuzzle me

If its anything like the "new" FZ6r, that engine (FZ6r) is considerably tuned down from our earlier models...

 

[thisisbenji]

I would say the FZ09 has a pretty large advantage on the FZ8.

How The Yamaha FZ-09 Compares to the FZ8 | RideApart

Where as the FZ09 and FZ1 have similar power-to-weight.

The FZ09 is lighter, has more horsepower, and more torque than the FZ8.

 

[FZSexy]

^
i don't understand the horsepower numbers for the FZ8. i mean it does make more HP at lower RPM then the FZ6 but the difference is not dramatic. at least on paper

so it must be about torque, somewhat. the 800cc, i mean. in which case i would say the new triple has it beat in most anyway i can think. just as an engine. not that i understand engines, but an 800cc I4 seems odd. as do the 750's, and so forth

maybe because i am a newb but line me up for a 600cc or 1000cc I4 (or near it) or give me something else. like a triple or a twin

600cc or 1000cc I4. i believe there may be a good reason why those are considered the two major racing bike categories. they set a certain standard / benchmark

what that standard is and why, i could not say. seems to make sense, though.

 

[Marthy]

Just in case anyones wondering, I'm from Illinois... we have one thing and one thing only, straight roads. That's why I tend to care more about straight line speed. Sure we have tracks, but daily riding, it's just straight. No canyons here.

I suppose comparing the FZ1 and FZ09 is a better idea. They're actually pretty close, if Cycleworld is to be believed the FZ1 is about a 1/10th quicker in the 1/4 mile. In that comparison I would almost certainly take the FZ09 as I like the styling and weight reduction. Although the FZ1 isn't really a bad bike for those that like the wind protection.

FZ1:
HP 130.7 hp @ 11,410 rpm
TQ 66.8 ft.-lb. @ 9350 rpm

FZ09:
HP 107.2 hp @ 10,120 rpm
TQ 61.5 lb.-ft. @ 8,480 rpm

The torque isn't even that far off, I have not looked at graphs, but I bet the torque is very similar across the curve with the FZ1 peaking slightly higher.

I'd be really curious to see how the out-of-the-box handling compares between the two. I know the FZ1 is heavier, but the FZ09 has bad throttle response and suspension....

The FZ1 can even be had for less cash then the FZ09

2013 Yamaha FZ1

You comparing both bike at peak torque, fine. But the FZ09 has torque way down low and quite flat all the way to the rev limiter. I swap bike with Erci during Daytona bike week. When the FZ1 power comes on it's nice. But hammer the throttle @ 3K and wait... wait... wait... bang! On the 09, you twist and it goes... plain simple!

Witch one is fastest? Who knows. Tight stuff I'll put my $$$ on the FZ09. Long strait the FZ1 will have upper hand for sure. Just 2 different bikes.

The FZ09 has few issues but not as bad as it seems. Can be easily fix with some minimum investment. FZ1 is pretty solid too but if you want to sort it out you need to dig deep in your pocket too.

Here's a dyno run on my ride. Base run bone stock and with exhaust/tune. His dyno read a bit low but all I worried about was the gain.

The other two are FZ8. Bone stock 2013 and R779 (FZ8 with R1 cams)

What's the fastest? I really dig the top end rush of a I-4 but to be honest for every day riding in the street the triple characteristic is hard to beat.

 

[thisisbenji]

What's the fastest? I really dig the top end rush of a I-4 but to be honest for every day riding in the street the triple characteristic is hard to beat.

I agree, I wonder if part of the "top end" rush of a 600c I4 is that there isn't any bottom end power?

 

[iviyth0s]

I think what pisses me off about the 09 is the fact tha it's called a nine. it should have been the MT85/FZ85. Less misleading.

I like that people are more fairly pitting the "85" and the 1 or the 85 and the FZ8 than versus the 6...I think Yamaha wants us all to forget that mistake (FZ8) really, what was the point of that lol

I'd love em to make a triple 600 though, just so we could have a fair comparison

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I agree, I wonder if part of the "top end" rush of a 600c I4 is that there isn't any bottom end power?

I wouldn't say no low end power. I'm 185lbs and it gets going nicely even from 3k. The top end is definitely much faster, but I can accelerate faster than cars even while keeping the revs below 4k.

 

[thisisbenji]

I wouldn't say no low end power. I'm 185lbs and it gets going nicely even from 3k. The top end is definitely much faster, but I can accelerate faster than cars even while keeping the revs below 4k.

Maybe a Corolla with my mom driving, but you would have to use some revs to keep up with me...

You are correct it's not like there's "no power", what I meant to say is there is relatively low power down low compared to something like a XR1200.

 

[Erci]

You comparing both bike at peak torque, fine. But the FZ09 has torque way down low and quite flat all the way to the rev limiter. I swap bike with Erci during Daytona bike week. When the FZ1 power comes on it's nice. But hammer the throttle @ 3K and wait... wait... wait... bang! On the 09, you twist and it goes... plain simple!

Witch one is fastest? Who knows. Tight stuff I'll put my $$$ on the FZ09. Long strait the FZ1 will have upper hand for sure. Just 2 different bikes.

The FZ09 has few issues but not as bad as it seems. Can be easily fix with some minimum investment. FZ1 is pretty solid too but if you want to sort it out you need to dig deep in your pocket too.

Yup, your FZ09 pulled much harder at lower RPM. FZ1 can be very quick, but you have to keep the RPMs up.. not ideal for street.

Having ridden all sorts of bikes now (including I4, I3, I2, V4 and V2), I want my next street bike to be either I3 or V2. For the track, I'll stick with I4.