TB Sync - A Nightmare

[Zealot]

Hiya folks, got my Manometer built and hooked up as per the main guide around here, http://www.600riders.com/forum/how-to-s-/39891-build-your-own-manometer-throttle-body-sync.html .

Not long after I started the bike (after warming it up), my first cylinder pulled all the air out of the second and third tube, and then the fluid became full of air bubbles and was a mess to read. I managed to adjust it some and balance out the awful splashy mix, and then unhooked it to let it settle.

Attempt number 2, I was a bit more careful and as a result of my previous adjustments - it held for a while before cylinder 3 had all the fluid sucked out, but I was quick and stopped it before it became what it was before. One and two pull a lot, whereas four pulls some - and 3 has 'none'.

Trying to figure out where to go from here, since I can't touch one. Do I turn the screw in or out to increase/decrease the vacuum? I couldn't find that anywhere. I assume right for 'more' and left for 'less' on the screws? (at least that's how it appears)

I'm out of time today, but I'm hoping to have it ready and done by tomorrow. I've put the bike back to default so it's ready to be warmed up properly tomorrow (with the little black plugs in the hoses) but I'm kind of worried I'll be in for a continued mess. I'm here with three questions, mainly:

1) Can I adjust while the bike is off? I know 3 doesn't pull enough - can I tighten it in and try again?

2)There's like 8" of oil in each tube. Would you suggest more?

3)Should a fan be pointed at the front of the bike, or am I okay for some off/on adjustments?

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Hiya folks, got my Manometer built and hooked up as per the main guide around here, http://www.600riders.com/forum/how-to-s-/39891-build-your-own-manometer-throttle-body-sync.html .

Not long after I started the bike (after warming it up), my first cylinder pulled all the air out of the second and third tube, and then the fluid became full of air bubbles and was a mess to read. I managed to adjust it some and balance out the awful splashy mix, and then unhooked it to let it settle.

Attempt number 2, I was a bit more careful and as a result of my previous adjustments - it held for a while before cylinder 3 had all the fluid sucked out, but I was quick and stopped it before it became what it was before. One and two pull a lot, whereas four pulls some - and 3 has 'none'.

Trying to figure out where to go from here, since I can't touch one. Do I turn the screw in or out to increase/decrease the vacuum? I couldn't find that anywhere. I assume right for 'more' and left for 'less' on the screws? (at least that's how it appears)

I'm out of time today, but I'm hoping to have it ready and done by tomorrow. I've put the bike back to default so it's ready to be warmed up properly tomorrow (with the little black plugs in the hoses) but I'm kind of worried I'll be in for a continued mess. I'm here with three questions, mainly:

1) Can I adjust while the bike is off? I know 3 doesn't pull enough - can I tighten it in and try again?

2)There's like 8" of oil in each tube. Would you suggest more?

3)Should a fan be pointed at the front of the bike, or am I okay for some off/on adjustments?

Make sure the bike is warmed up before you turn it off and attach the sync hoses. The idle will be higher on the cold engine, and as a result the sync will be just a bit different.

That said, what fluid did you use? I ended up using conventional 30w oil and with the heavier weight it takes a bit more to pull it up. I left a LOT of extra hose as potential overflow buffer.

Another point regarding the manometer, is whether or not you used the restricting connectors at the end of the hose. I know that some people have chosen not to use them, and their manometers often had the fluid pulled much higher in the tubes.

You can change the sync screws with the engine off. The sync screws basically act like a restriction plate for each of the throttle bodies. So turning them with the engine off has no adverse effects.

To answers your number questions directly:

1. This is A-OK (as explained above).

2. I have a similar amount in my homemade manometer (perhaps even a little less).

3. I did not point a fan at mine when I was syncing the first time. I let the bike idle in the garage until I got 2 bars on the temp gauge. Then I turned it off, plugged in my tubes and started it back up. I saw a larger surge on start up, but the oil then settled down just fine.

 

[motojoe122]

You may have an air leak at one or more of the fittings if the tubes are bubbling that much.

 

[FinalImpact]

Add more restrictions... Even inserting paper clips into the existing restrictors can help.

The engine is a big vacuum pump. Spin it faster it sucks more. If #1 is so strong compared to the others its likely because the others are out further which raises the rpm making #1 suck more to keep up.

Also if you T in some small reservoirs like syringes which are locked out extended, they act as pulsation dampers so lighter fluids can be used and/or engine can be reved w out sucking fluid. Like 50 cc each right after the restrictors on the fluid side.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Commercial machines come with very small restrictors; www.carbtune.com (no fluids to screw with).

Running W/O them I would think would cause greater jumping/less steadyness (especially with lighter oil).

Re the fan, I have a HD (probably 18" diameter fan) I run at 100% when syncing right in front of the radiator / header. Even with that, temps will still climb, especially if your trying to fine tune it and get it WELL within spec's. (The factory allows for 10mm's, I get mine within 3mm's but it does take time).

#1 cylinder is the base screw to adjust by. Its normally set at approx 3/4 a turn out,(page 3-7, Yamaha S2 shop manual, lower left).

IF, you run out of adjustment on the other cylinder(s) (and nothing else is wrong), open (counterclockwise) #1, maybe 1/4 turn and it should give you more ajustment with the rest.

Not asked but certainly applicable, is the bike due for a valve check or ever had one down depending on mileage/riding habits? A mis-adjusted valve can cause major vacuum issues...

*And lastly, a member was checking his sync and found the last person "down there" had the hoses mixed up and one actually un-plugged, basic NO-NO's. Things we assume won't happen but obviously does..

 

[Zealot]

Make sure the bike is warmed up before you turn it off and attach the sync hoses. The idle will be higher on the cold engine, and as a result the sync will be just a bit different.

That said, what fluid did you use? I ended up using conventional 30w oil and with the heavier weight it takes a bit more to pull it up. I left a LOT of extra hose as potential overflow buffer.

Another point regarding the manometer, is whether or not you used the restricting connectors at the end of the hose. I know that some people have chosen not to use them, and their manometers often had the fluid pulled much higher in the tubes.

I followed every instruction in the guide, and have every part required for proper function. Warmed the bike up, hooked up the hoses with vacuum restrictors, and threw in some 2stroke oil. As it stands, your suggestion to use heavier oil might work out perfectly since to my knowledge there's some fairly thick synthetic oil my dad has sitting around the garage. Tomorrow morning, I think I'll give it another shot with the 2stroke oil and see what happens, but I'll likely switch it over. I don't think mixing the two slightly (2stroke residue) will do much, thankfully.

You may have an air leak at one or more of the fittings if the tubes are bubbling that much.

I thought I had a leak, but it seems like it was just some oil that spilled a bit when I fitted the hoses. I'll double check using soapy water perhaps - and hope that doesn't get pulled in and gum up the engine despite minute quantities. I think it's more due to the fact that I had entire tubes get pulled empty and bits of air that would have been in the lines (above the fluid) got bounced around and mixed together. It looked a lot better on my second attempt where no tubes ran empty - but I'll keep this in mind and see how it goes.

Add more restrictions... Even inserting paper clips into the existing restrictors can help.

The engine is a big vacuum pump. Spin it faster it sucks more. If #1 is so strong compared to the others its likely because the others are out further which raises the rpm making #1 suck more to keep up.

Also if you T in some small reservoirs like syringes which are locked out extended, they act as pulsation dampers so lighter fluids can be used and/or engine can be reved w out sucking fluid. Like 50 cc each right after the restrictors on the fluid side.

I'd worry about the paper clips getting sucked in; I can't think of any way to secure them off the top of my head. Any suggestions? I've seemingly balanced them out a bit more so that #1 doesn't run so high and the others pull back enough that it doesn't shoot up (namely #2 and #4, whereas #3 is still suffering a bit) like the first run. I've tightened up #3 in the mean time so it hopefully pulls a bit more, and plan on loosening #2 a bit just to see what happens. I wish I had extra connectors along with syringes, but I don't; had a hard enough time finding the connectors as it stood, finally locating some at a local aquarium store!

Running W/O them I would think would cause greater jumping/less steadyness (especially with lighter oil).

#1 cylinder is the base screw to adjust by. Its normally set at approx 3/4 a turn out,(page 3-7, Yamaha S2 shop manual, lower left).

IF, you run out of adjustment on the other cylinder(s) (and nothing else is wrong), open (counterclockwise) #1, maybe 1/4 turn and it should give you more ajustment with the rest.

Not asked but certainly applicable, is the bike due for a valve check or ever had one down depending on mileage/riding habits? A mis-adjusted valve can cause major vacuum issues...

*And lastly, a member was checking his sync and found the last person "down there" had the hoses mixed up and one actually un-plugged, basic NO-NO's. Things we assume won't happen but obviously does..

Restrictors are in, my friend! I'd be a bit hesitant to mess with #1 (since I don't fully understand the inner workings and would worry that I'd break something) as it stands and hope to solve my issue through the traditional way, and a bit of trial and error. As far as I know this bike was owned by adults - one woman, and one middle age bike collector. There's only 13,000KM on the bike at this point (2000 of which I threw on myself), and based on what I'd assume the previous owners to be like - I'm doubtful that the valves have ever been touched, let alone thrown that far out of spec, but I could be wrong.

You've got me worried about the hoses now, but everything was organized in a neat fashion and attached as far as I could tell, but I'll try and follow them tomorrow morning and ensure they're all attached properly!





Funny enough, side note, there's a chance that the syncing might have started sorting out some of the wubbing that I complained about previously. With how far out all the cylinders were from #1 based on when I first fired it up, and the fact that during little adjustments here and there I noted the sound of the bike either improving or worsening, I'm really hopeful that it might simplify things a bit for me in the future. But yeah, meantime, going to try getting more oil into the tubes to begin with in the hopes none get sucked all the way out, some heavier oil if that fails, and trying to find a way to increase the amount of restriction in the tubes.

 

[FinalImpact]

I'd worry about the paper clips getting sucked in; I can't think of any way to secure them off the top of my head. Any suggestions? I've seemingly balanced them out a bit more so that #1 doesn't run so high and the others pull back enough that it doesn't shoot up (namely #2 and #4, whereas #3 is still suffering a bit) like the first run. I've tightened up #3 in the mean time so it hopefully pulls a bit more, and plan on loosening #2 a bit just to see what happens. I wish I had extra connectors along with syringes, but I don't; had a hard enough time finding the connectors as it stood, finally locating some at a local aquarium store!

Simply bend a sharp 90° in them that prevents them from fitting through the restriction device. Do both ends.

Do you have an actual vacuum gauge? It can be helpful to get rid of your WUB..... Essentially set all screws to the same value as #1. Set idle speed to 1300 and read the engines vacuum. Tell us what it is and we can advise from there. Does this have any mods or a fuel controller?

 

[Zealot]

Simply bend a sharp 90° in them that prevents them from fitting through the restriction device. Do both ends.

Do you have an actual vacuum gauge? It can be helpful to get rid of your WUB..... Essentially set all screws to the same value as #1. Set idle speed to 1300 and read the engines vacuum. Tell us what it is and we can advise from there. Does this have any mods or a fuel controller?

Hmm. That'll same some interesting bending, but I'll definitely give it a whirl if I'm still having some issues.

I hardly own anything to help with mechanical related issues past basic tools, so that's a no to the vacuum gauge. No mods save for TB pipes (which shouldn't have an effect) or fuel controller to note.

 

[FinalImpact]

Does it have the stock mid pipe with cat?

Do you know the diameter of the restrictors? It doesn't take much of a bend to stop them. Even if they made to the TB, that can't enter.

 

[Zealot]

Yeah, aside from the slip on exhaust, nothing has been changed in those regards. The resistors themselves are 3/16OD to fit with the tubes properly, but I haven't a clue what the inner dimension is. It's pretty close to a 16th of an inch given a quick visual inspection.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

You can easily check (pay attention) where #1 was/ is set out at currently.

You can always go back to that setting but 3/4 (and slightly more) seems to be the norm for best running. At least two members couldn't get enough adjustment on another cyclinder. Adjusting #1 out allowed the adjustment. This is taking into account everything else is normal..(no loose hoses, air leaks, etc)

Keep in mind, the MAIN thing you want to acomplish is all cylinders pulling even across the board.

As noted above the 1,300 idle speed is kinda important too when making adjustments. Re-checking at 4,000 RPM (once you get your situation sorted) helps fine tune calibration.

Your description sounds like it hasn't been messed with BUT, when my FJR was under warranty, I had an official Yamaha shop, Yamaha mechanic, do a sync (didn't have the tool or knowledge at the time). They adjusted NOT THE AIR SCREW (as should be, like the FZ), but the painted, spring, butterfly adjuster (which I found later). The whole procedure was done wrong-big time. In the shop manual, in BIG BLACK LETTERS states NOT to adjust those butterflys. I ended up re-setting that painted air screw(you could see where it was initially) and syncing with the air screws.

BTW, The FZ has one CENTER "springed" butterfly alignment screw which should NOT be screwed with.


Just a side note and IMO. If you can afford it, the "Morgan Cartune" does NOT use ANY FLUIDS, is extremly accurate and paid for itself MANY times over. A very high quaility tool. You don't have to worry about (even if properly set up) sucking 2 stroke oil or anything else into your engine and does have markings (down to 1 mm) so can actually see EXACTLY what the settings are at, not guesstamating 5 mm's, 7 mm's, etc. Just a thought..

You don't need to be second guessing your tool which may contribute to your issues...Again, IMO.. :thumbup:

 

[Zealot]

Well, I got up early this morning and spent the better part of 3 hours trying to sort my Manometer out. I gave it a go this morning after swapping out the 2stroke oil for some heavier synthetic stuff, and after the huge headache that I caused myself trying to get it in and leveled out, I gave it a whirl. Immediately I noticed a huge glaring flaw - my T connectors don't have ribs and as such, it seems like the ones on the far left (cylinder #1 and #2 especially) have an air leak from somewhere, pulling it in the bottom. The lack of ribs is a glaring oversight on my part, I get that now. I hadn't realized their importance.

Frustrated, I went to Princess Auto and bought some vacuum gauges but they were really finicky and flew all over the place, so I measured and compared the values as best I could by using two of them in unison - with one hooked up to cylinder #1 and then alternating to the other TB's with the other. I must have done something kind of right, because the idle smoothed out a bit (having ridden the bike for so long, it does sound marginally better) and one of the biggest factors I read was that the popping from my Two Brother pipes during decel is almost gone. It does one quiet pop now as opposed to what was previously multiple loud ones - so that's a good sign in my eyes! It also seems to rev up a little bit smoother as far as the sound is concerned - which has me really interested in what a proper, accurate sync will yield.

I gave the gauges back, since that's $40 in my pocket and have since covered the bottom of my manometer with silicone that was laying around the basement to try and seal the tubes and T connectors. I used a Q-tip in order to push the silicone in and around, and made sure to use enough that everything should be sealed in the end. Tomorrow afternoon when I check back to see how it's coming along, I'll reapply more if necessary - but I suspect I might be able to fix the issue in regards to air being pulled in. Failing that, and failing my second attempt at silicone (if needed), I'm simply going to put the $40 toward a carb sync tool online, such as the one from Carbtune.

Here's to hoping! Really wish I'd have been able to find the proper, ribbed connectors at local places like I'd hoped, but I'll make due with what I've got. My credit card bill as such needs to be balanced out, and ordering things online is becoming a last resort at this point since I don't want more money to have to pay back through interest. Really need to be given money that's owed to me and sell my old CBR 250 to get it back to zero, but that'll come in time. I'm debating a second credit card simply for smaller, insurance free purchasing on the side.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Glad it got better...:thumbup:

Just as a side note, once I got mine (specifically for the buzz in my FZ seat and little bit in the bars) I used it on the FJR and fixed the shops screw up. They charge $125 a pop!

BTW, doing the fine tune, rev to 4K, check and re-sync, got rid of easily 90% of the vibs. I almost sold the bike it was so annoying. The sync tool was the last resort before it was going up for sale. Its a keeper NOW!

Since then, I've charged my customers $25 a sync, let them watch and help(if they like to). They can see how far out it was before and after results, something you CAN'T do in a shop..

It has literally paid for itself several times over. So even if you have a couple of friends with bikes, charging just a couple (and that's a GREAT DEAL), it will pay for itself..Word of mouth spread, (no advertising at all).:thumbup:

 

[erburtt]

Well, I got up early this morning and spent the better part of 3 hours trying to sort my Manometer out. I gave it a go this morning after swapping out the 2stroke oil for some heavier synthetic stuff, and after the huge headache that I caused myself trying to get it in and leveled out, I gave it a whirl. Immediately I noticed a huge glaring flaw - my T connectors don't have ribs and as such, it seems like the ones on the far left (cylinder #1 and #2 especially) have an air leak from somewhere, pulling it in the bottom. The lack of ribs is a glaring oversight on my part, I get that now. I hadn't realized their importance.

Frustrated, I went to Princess Auto and bought some vacuum gauges but they were really finicky and flew all over the place, so I measured and compared the values as best I could by using two of them in unison - with one hooked up to cylinder #1 and then alternating to the other TB's with the other. I must have done something kind of right, because the idle smoothed out a bit (having ridden the bike for so long, it does sound marginally better) and one of the biggest factors I read was that the popping from my Two Brother pipes during decel is almost gone. It does one quiet pop now as opposed to what was previously multiple loud ones - so that's a good sign in my eyes! It also seems to rev up a little bit smoother as far as the sound is concerned - which has me really interested in what a proper, accurate sync will yield.

I gave the gauges back, since that's $40 in my pocket and have since covered the bottom of my manometer with silicone that was laying around the basement to try and seal the tubes and T connectors. I used a Q-tip in order to push the silicone in and around, and made sure to use enough that everything should be sealed in the end. Tomorrow afternoon when I check back to see how it's coming along, I'll reapply more if necessary - but I suspect I might be able to fix the issue in regards to air being pulled in. Failing that, and failing my second attempt at silicone (if needed), I'm simply going to put the $40 toward a carb sync tool online, such as the one from Carbtune.

Here's to hoping! Really wish I'd have been able to find the proper, ribbed connectors at local places like I'd hoped, but I'll make due with what I've got. My credit card bill as such needs to be balanced out, and ordering things online is becoming a last resort at this point since I don't want more money to have to pay back through interest. Really need to be given money that's owed to me and sell my old CBR 250 to get it back to zero, but that'll come in time. I'm debating a second credit card simply for smaller, insurance free purchasing on the side.

After searching around a whole bunch, I bought all my connectors from princess auto, there were suggestions to get pieces from pet stores designed for fish tank bubblers, but princess auto is what really delivered. I think I put a small zip tie around each one too which clamped the hose down on it. I've never had a leak.

If you want to come down to Belleville/Kingston one day you can see my manometer and I can help you do a sync, I've done it a couple times now with great results... I bought my bike at around the same mileage as you and now have almost 50k on it

 

[Zealot]

After searching around a whole bunch, I bought all my connectors from princess auto, there were suggestions to get pieces from pet stores designed for fish tank bubblers, but princess auto is what really delivered. I think I put a small zip tie around each one too which clamped the hose down on it. I've never had a leak.

If you want to come down to Belleville/Kingston one day you can see my manometer and I can help you do a sync, I've done it a couple times now with great results... I bought my bike at around the same mileage as you and now have almost 50k on it

I'm hoping the silicone, which unfortunately hasn't dried quite yet, will be ample enough to seal what I have. If that goes through, I'll definitely consider stopping by to check out what you're built - that'd be great!

 

[Zealot]

So, turns out the silicone was bad (expired) and the bottom of my manometer is effectively covered in half liquid garbage now, instead of the (what I'd hoped would be) dried rubber esque compound. No amount of going at it with the hair dryer is fixing it either. It's been promptly placed into the garbage bin, since I'm sick of looking at it. Ordering a manometer off of carbtune, since at least by investing in a quality piece of equipment I'll have it forever.

 

[FinalImpact]

Should someone stumble opon this, hopefully it will help them.

Yeah, aside from the slip on exhaust, nothing has been changed in those regards. The resistors themselves are 3/16OD to fit with the tubes properly, but I haven't a clue what the inner dimension is. It's pretty close to a 16th of an inch given a quick visual inspection.

^^ That is an issue even for standard Analog gauge as the signal will be too strong!
ID: 1/16" = 0.0625"
radius: = 0.03125 in
Circ: = 0.19635 in <-circumference
Area: = 0.00306796 in2

Lets cut the diameter in 1/2. Notice what the area does?
1/32" = 0.03125"
radius: = 0.015625 in
Circ: = 0.0981748 in
Area: = 0.00076699 in2 << Area is 1/4 of the 1/16" size!!! Point; NOT Any Restrictor will do!!!

Hose Clamps:
Silicone tubing is very elastic and can be used as a clamp on smaller tubes. Simply cut off a short section, fit it over some needle nose pliers and stretch it placing it over the end of the hose which needs clamped. Unlike a ziptie, it applies 360° of continuous pressure and is not bulky or unsightly. In a pinch, it makes a great hose clamp.


As for your blob, its moisture that cures silicone and if force cured, the exterior seals off and doesn't allow moisture to penetrate so it takes weeks(s) to cure if thick. Check this out...

RTV silicone adhesives rely on moisture and humidity in the air to cure properly. Generally the conditions have to be 40-60% RH, but can extend down to 20%, and up to 70% in certain cases. The moisture in the air reacts with the stabilizer in the RTV, and once the stabilizer is removed, the adhesive can cure fully. In a very high-humidity environment, the humidity in the air can saturate the surface of the RTV, and effectively seal it off, limiting the penetration of the humidity to deeper levels. If you have a thick bond line or cross section of material, it may take longer than one week to cure fully. The silicone manufacturers generally set a 5-7 day cure schedule for RTV’s before they can test the physical properties in a thick slab of material, and that’s with the condition of 40-60%. If you have a 70% RH condition during the summer time, it may take longer, or disrupt the cure enough to appear gummy or semi-cured. Acidic surfaces may also cause problems with the cure mechanism.

Former work place we cured silicone in a humidity chamber. A week in open air or 4hrs in the chamber...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re the ID of the restrictor;

If you have a sewing needle with the "ball" on the end (for lining two pieces of material together BEFORE SEWING), that size needle will JUST fit inside that restrictor (just about dead on, not loose and not tight), its THAT SMALL..

About 3/4" long.

 

[FinalImpact]

Re the ID of the restrictor;

If you have a sewing needle with the "ball" on the end (for lining two pieces of material together BEFORE SEWING), that size needle will JUST fit inside that restrictor (just about dead on, not loose and not tight), its THAT SMALL..

About 3/4" long.

For your off the shelf product Carbtune? I'd guess with its rods it can tolerate a stronger signal than those running fluids. Still good info! :thumbup:
Can you measure the needles OD with calipers? From memory all of my Engine related vacuum gauges are down there like 0.020" to 0.030" ID or something like that.

PS: Because many end up frustrated and sucking oil in the DIY sync kits and the simple FIX is the PROPER SIZE HOLE! That said, I'm currently adding the above info to that thread.
- As you know from jetting carbs, main jet sizes are tiny changes as the area of the circle drops rapidly with diameter reduction...

Thanks!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

For your off the shelf product Carbtune? I'd guess with its rods it can tolerate a stronger signal than those running fluids. Still good info! :thumbup:
Can you measure the needles OD with calipers? From memory all of my Engine related vacuum gauges are down there like 0.020" to 0.030" ID or something like that.

PS: Because many end up frustrated and sucking oil in the DIY sync kits and the simple FIX is the PROPER SIZE HOLE! That said, I'm currently adding the above info to that thread.
- As you know from jetting carbs, main jet sizes are tiny changes as the area of the circle drops rapidly with diameter reduction...

Thanks!

Yes, its the standard Carbtune restrictors. A clear, very thick hose with a tiny hole down the middle.

The needle OD (or restrictor hose ID) is approx .5mm