Spongy brakes after new lines fitted!

[agf]

Just had the HEL braided s/steel brake lines fitted but brakes are pretty spongy, Mech reckons let it settle -the air will rise back to master cylinder. Give it 10 days he says. I think the front feels like 90% rear about 60% and double the peddle travel
Thoughts folks?
Sent from the phone: sorry 'bout my spileng, fat fingers...you know!

 

[stink989]

Sounds like he didn't bleed them properly. With the front brake try putting a cable tie around the bars to the lever overnight. Do it nice and tight. If done properly nothing should leak and the lever should be a little harder in the morning

 

[ChevyFazer]

Yeah he forgot to bleed the brakes and is telling you that to not make himself look like a idiot, but after a few days most of the air will work its way up to the master, properly bleeding them always works better

 

[agf]

Thanks guys ,Ill try the zip tie, worst is the travel on the rear, I.m so used to just tapping it and draggin a bit in bumpr traffic. The front still pulls up ok but I did expect better. See how it is in the morning, but a ph call will be in order.
Sent from the phone: sorry 'bout my spileng, fat fingers...you know!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sounds like he didn't bleed them properly. With the front brake try putting a cable tie around the bars to the lever overnight. Do it nice and tight. If done properly nothing should leak and the lever should be a little harder in the morning

+1 on the above. With the cable tie/bungee holding the brake lever tight, make sure the steering is turned to left so the master cylinder is the highest, on the side stand... Make sure the cover is ON. You will notice a difference. My front lever with the Hel lines move maybe 3/4" to FULL STOP and are solid.

Got them as hard as possible, went for a short bumpy ride to get the air bubbles to move. Bungee the ft brake lever as noted above, then used the Mity Vac once more the next day for a final bleed... (I had the front calipers completely apart for a re-build)


As for the backs, I suspect they'll need a re-bleed, I don't know of any secrets for the rear. I used a commerical Mity Vac with no problems.

 

[William]

Mech reckons let it settle -the air will rise back to master cylinder. Give it 10 days he says.

That’s nonsense. Get the lines bled. Those HEL stainless lines are going to be great!

Using a bleeder with a check valve like my motion pro makes bleeding a fast, one person job.

 

[agf]

Zip tie is on, master cyl is at the high point,yeah I reckon Ill be asking for re bleed on the rear its pretty sh1tty. I havnt bled brakes since I was a tacker(30 years back) so did the ol' f@rt thing and paid a man, when will I learn, have done all my electrics on the bike, (rewired a corvette from left hand to right hand drive when I was younger too) so not scared of this stuff, just time to do it....bugger bugger bugger.
Just gotta say this forum is ace the way people chime in with advice:thumbup:
Sent from the phone: sorry 'bout my spileng, fat fingers...you know!

 

[Humperdinkel]

I reckon what your doing with the zip clips will fix the problem Ade :thumbup: Bloody dodgey mechanics :spank: pick up your game people this is lives your dealing with

 

[agf]

Yeah I wedged some wood so the rear is 'on' or open but I figure there is so much rise and dip in the line in the middle that it will need the clip taken off the swing arm....I ll have to work on that. Shoulda had a go at it myself

Sent from the phone: sorry 'bout my spileng, fat fingers...you know!

 

[agf]

Off topic, hows the new job Dan? behind a nice BIG desk he he he glad thats all worked well for you.
Cheers

Sent from the phone: sorry 'bout my spileng, fat fingers...you know!

 

[greg]

+1 on the zip tie

mine went from spongey to rock hard, if they go a bit spongy then zip tie them again

 

[ebster1085]

re bleed..the end

 

[FinalImpact]

Someone explain how holding the lever down will help anything??? The moment the master cylinder piston moves, it blocks the PORT to the reservoir (where the air needs to go to escape) and seals the air between the caliper and the master cylinder piston.

If it works; great - but.....
The reason it may work is this: You raised the pressure in the line set and caliper. The millions of tiny air molecules are dispersed throughout the caliper and line-set. Under pressure they separate from the fluid forming larger bubble of air. They all do the gravity thing and move up the line set and park at the piston. When the tie wrap comes off, HOPEFULLY the giant @ss air bubble finds its way to the feeder port of the fluid reservoir and make their way to the top.

Two things:
Tapping the calipers with a none metallic object in the opposite direction the caliper pistons move will help dislodge bubbles. As does shaking and tapping the lines.

If you try that lever lock idea tap the master cylinder several time before and after releasing the lock. The first time to help collect air, the second time to help rattle it through the feed port.

Is anyone opposed to actually bleeding it the right way? I posted a How too somewhere to help someone else. The practice works and is also word for word in the service manual. . .

 

[greg]

tying the lever down allows the bubbles to enter the reservoir, if you just left it with the levers out, when you pulled it down you would push the bubbles back down the line

when you release it the bubbles are drawn into the reservoir, and replaced by the brake fluid.

 

[Hellgate]

Final Impact is spot on.

Here's a few things I do to make the process fast.

1) Remove the bleed screws and wrap the threads with teflon tape. This will prevent the air from getting back into the caliper via the threads as you open the screw.

2) Only open the screw enough to get fluid to pump out, no more.

3) By a Mity Vac or other brand of vacuum pump. $30 well spent.

4) Replace OEM bleed screws with 1/4 bleed screws. That with the tape and Mity Vac you'll be finished with the job in 10 minutes.

5) Right caliper, then left, then MC, repeat.

6) Gently tap, gently, the calipers and MC with a rubber mallet/block of wood, to get trapped bubbles to rise to the given bleed screw. Do this prior to each bleed cycle.

7) Done. :thumbup:

Done need this however I am totally sold on Motol 400 DOT 4 brake fluid. It doesn't fade at all and you get even better lever feel.

 

[agf]

If it works; great - but.....
The reason it may work is this: You raised the pressure in the line set and caliper. The millions of tiny air molecules are dispersed throughout the caliper and line-set. Under pressure they separate from the fluid forming larger bubble of air. They all do the gravity thing and move up the line set and park at the piston. When the tie wrap comes off, HOPEFULLY the giant @ss air bubble finds its way to the feeder port of the fluid reservoir and make their way to the top.



If you try that lever lock idea tap the master cylinder several time before and after releasing the lock. The first time to help collect air, the second time to help rattle it through the feed port.

Is anyone opposed to actually bleeding it the right way? I posted a How too somewhere to help someone else. The practice works and is also word for word in the service manual. . .

So to give an update:
let the zip tie off this morning and the front felt way different after I let the lever out and pulled it back again, so the air in the line must go back to the reservoir?!?! Any way my thoughts were that the front brake was maybe 80% of what it had been w OEM lines- this morning it tips in at about 120% of what it used to be like, lighter pull but way more sensitive and not as long a throw. So I will try again tonight, zip tie and tap the slave and master cylinders. The rear on the other hand, is still spongy. I am figuring that there is air trapped in the loop in the line where it goes through the clip on the swing arm. I shoved a piece of wood between the lever and the bottom of the motor and will do the same again and give another update in 24 hours. Spoke to the mechanic this am too, will take it back to him on Monday next week. He felt the pedal and thought it was ok, BUT I RIDE IT AND I KNOW how it really feels
anyways thanks again all for suggestions and advice....we're getting there!

 

[PhotoAl]

Thanks for the zip tie tip. When I put the new brake lines on the front had to manually bleed the fronts just a little to get the last of the air bubbles out of the calipers. Brake fluid is on "the list" for the spring work. Will have to try wraping the bleeder screws with teflon tape - have always had trouble with the air leaking around the bleed screws when using the vacuum pupm.

 

[FinalImpact]

tying the lever down allows the bubbles to enter the reservoir. . .

No - it doesn't. Actually it can't. Its waiting for you to release the lever to open the port.


The moment you pull the lever, the master cylinder piston moves blocking the PORT to the reservoir (where the air needs to go to escape) and seals the air between the caliper and the master cylinder piston.

Its how it builds pressure to actuate the caliper pistons.

I had no problem bleeding mine manually. I didn't buy anything other than a 20" section of silicon tubing and the brakes were great the first go around.

Pumping the levers with the bleeder open will cause pain and hardship plus a limp lever. Its not a race, each end of the bike can be done in 10 - 15min tops if no mistakes are made. :thumbup:


EDIT:
((PASTE FROM ANOTHER POST))

Use silicon tubing from the hobby store works way better than plastic or hard vinyl tubing..

Straight from the manual and the way I have always done it successfully is this:

1. Bleed:
• Hydraulic brake system
▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼
a. Fill the brake fluid reservoir to the proper level with the recommended brake fluid.
b. Install the diaphragm (brake master cylinder reservoir or brake fluid reservoir).
c. Connect a clear plastic hose “1” tightly to the bleed screw “2”.
d. Place the other end of the hose into a container.
e. Slowly apply the brake lever several times.
f. Fully pull the brake lever or fully press down the brake pedal and hold it in position.
g. Loosen the bleed screw.
------------------------------------------------
NOTE:
Loosening the bleed screw will release the pressure and cause the brake lever to contact the throttle grip or the brake pedal to fully extend.
------------------------------------------------
h. Tighten the bleed screw and then release the brake lever or brake pedal.
i. Repeat steps (e) to (h) until all of the air bubbles have disappeared from the brake fluid in the plastic hose.
j. Tighten the bleed screw to specification.
k. Fill the brake fluid reservoir to the proper level with the recommended brake fluid.
Refer to "CHECKING THE BRAKE FLUID
LEVEL" on page 3-22.

IMO; pumping the lever(s) with the bleeder screw open is likely making allot of extra work trying to get the air out of the system and I would NOT advise performing such a practice. Also I never submerge the hose, I just let it hang in the pan. . . Usually cause the stuff coming out is nasty and I don't want it on my hose!

 

[Shinn]

FinalImpact has got it right down on the money. I did three sets in one afternoon by hand. I even bought a mity vac thing from the automotive store and i hate it. By hand is so much better. Now i love the idea of getting silicone hose. I used plastic and it sucked.

 

[Humperdinkel]

Off topic, hows the new job Dan? behind a nice BIG desk he he he glad thats all worked well for you.
Cheers

New jobs is going great mate :thumbup: Thanks for asking.... Been a shock to the system with the early starts but im getting back into the swing of it

Once I get settled in next week i'll start polishing up the truck & post some pics