new fz6, TPS question

[lanezplitter]

hi folks. I just bought an 04 fz6 and I have a question. The bike is in pretty great shape with about 10k miles; I'm very excited about it.

However, after a few rides I noticed that the idle is a bit uneven. Nothing that caught my attention when I was test riding--I was too distracted by the incredibly loud two brother's exhaust system (I've already ordered some silencer tips to quiet it down). I'm pretty sure that it could be idling a bit more smoothly. So I googled and immediately found all the threads about the TPS recall.

Turns out that the bike has never been in to have the TPS replaced--I called yamaha to verify. I've got an appointment at the local dealership in a few weeks to have it replaced. However, I also read about going into DIAG mode to check the TPS, so I did that, and the TPS values were spot on (16-100). Is there any chance that the TPS could still be the cause of my bad idle even if DIAG numbers seem within spec?

Anything else to check in the meantime? I was thinking of putting some techron or seafoam in--thoughts about doing that? I appreciate any advice--thanks in advance.

 

[Motogiro]

:welcome:to this great forum!

When you test the TPS you have to slowly turn the the throttle, watching for the numbers to each appear with no skipping. Even then a TPS can be noisy and that won't show up on a simple diagnostic test or ohm meter. If it's under the factory recall definitely have it replace.

Sea Foam is not a bad idea and I've seen it work wonders.

 

[Motogiro]

Where in Cali are you?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Welcome to the forum! :welcome:

+1 on Cliff's post re the TPS and cleaners. They can swap out the TPS pretty easily.

Some bikes idle smoother than others. A 50 or 100 RPM variance is not unusual..

Seafoam or Chevron tectron work very well at keeping the injectors/fuel system clean(as well as the top end).

I use it (and the below product on a regular basis and with open Scorpion exhaust(with the cat), it idles dead smooth (I have it set at 1,000 RPM's, below the recommended 1200-1300 RPM's).


Also, an interesting link (I use this product: "Yamaha ring free" ALWAYS on the boat and occassionally in the bike):

http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/152932-easy-fix-for-rough-idle-and-stalling/

 

[lanezplitter]

thanks everyone for the advice. I will go forward with the TPS replacement because it is covered by Yamaha, so why not. I'll also put some seafoam in, and I'll check out that other yamaha product.

the only other issue that I discovered off the bat is that the chain seems to be tight--not sure how long the PO had it like this. It was making more noise than I'm used to, so I measured, and the slack was about 1.4 inches at the tightest spot.

I adjusted to 2 inches per the manual, but this seems awfully loose to me. Is that really how people keep it on the FZ6?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yes, you want it between 1.75" and 2".

Definitly Not any tighter. I keep mine as close to 2" as I can. Too tight a chain is noisier(tends to whine), very hard on the chain, rear sprocket hub bearing and the output sprocket shaft bearing too.

You have to remember, the swing arm is drooping when you check it on the centerstand. Once on the ground, the swing arm "straightens out" (goes more horizontal) and tightens up the chain.

 

[mxgolf]

:welcome: to this great forum and motorcycle! Ride safe and enjoy the ride.

 

[lanezplitter]

further questions about my uneven idle issue. I put some sea foam in the tank and after a few days I definitely noticed an improvement. So I'm guessing that the injectors needed some cleaning. Now the idle seems to be pretty even when the bike is warmed up, but it is still a bit lopsided. I can also feel the unevenness when I'm accelerating slowly or staying at a steady throttle low in the rpm range.

My question is: do the throttle bodies need to be synched when an aftermarket (2 brothers) exhaust system is installed? I know the PO installed the pipes recently before selling it, and I did not get the feeling that he touched anything on the engine.

I could just wait for the new TPS to be installed next week, but I'm antsy and also curious to rule out problems before taking it to dealer. Also, with the aftermarket pipes, there is a pretty annoying vibration right around 5k, and I would like to know if this is normal for an aftermarket "racing" exhaust system, or if it is just a symptom of things being out of synch. I don't have a reference point...

thanks

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

further questions about my uneven idle issue. I put some sea foam in the tank and after a few days I definitely noticed an improvement. So I'm guessing that the injectors needed some cleaning. Now the idle seems to be pretty even when the bike is warmed up, but it is still a bit lopsided. I can also feel the unevenness when I'm accelerating slowly or staying at a steady throttle low in the rpm range.

My question is: do the throttle bodies need to be synched when an aftermarket (2 brothers) exhaust system is installed? I know the PO installed the pipes recently before selling it, and I did not get the feeling that he touched anything on the engine.

I could just wait for the new TPS to be installed next week, but I'm antsy and also curious to rule out problems before taking it to dealer. Also, with the aftermarket pipes, there is a pretty annoying vibration right around 5k, and I would like to know if this is normal for an aftermarket "racing" exhaust system, or if it is just a symptom of things being out of synch. I don't have a reference point...

thanks

The vibration could very well be a symptom of being out of sync (it was the cause for vibes at about 4k on my bike)

Depending on the miles on the engine, if its never been done, you should likely do it. I have aftermarket pipes (they didn't change the frequency of the vibes).

I synced the TB's myself and got them within 3 mm's (Yamaha allows 10mm's variance). I syced at idle and at 4k RPM's as that's were all of my bad buzzing was coming. I have the "Carbtune", (excellent tool BTW), others have made their own as well ( www.carbtune.com )

Its not in the book, the 4 K sync, but it did stop at least 90% of my buzz. Your kinda getting up in the RPM's for the TB sync to work.

Check ALL the engine mounting bolts with a torque wrench. I also had two that loosened up maybe 3-4 lbs, brought them back up to 40' lbs, vibe gone...

If your halfways mechanically inclined, invest in a sync tool. The cost in the tool itself IS CHEAPER that Yamaha doing it once. Its pretty easy to do and there's plenty of threads on it.

If you just changed out the pipe, NO other mods, it really shouldn't have made any difference vibration wise (unless he left something loose).

 

[lanezplitter]

So I took the bike in to the dealer today to have the TPS replaced. Prior to having it replaced it was running pretty well, with a little bit of a lope in the idle that seemed to get better when the bike was completely warmed up.

I picked the bike up and it seemed to be running worse...the idle is noticeably worse when the bike starts up from cold and it feels rough pulling at the low rpms. It gets better when warmed up, but it still seems to be jumping around at idle with some noticeable vibration at around 4k rpms.

I asked the dealer if they had synched the TB when they replaced the TPS and he said, "No, that's not included in replacing the TPS. That is routine maintenance, so if you want that done you have to pay for it."

Everything that I've read on the forums say that the TPS replacement should include a throttle body sync. I even called Yamaha USA to ask them, and although they were very friendly they said that they didn't have a tech specialist to verify the standard procedure, and that I should call around to other dealers to get a second opinion before calling back the dealership that did the recall replacement. The service manager seemed pretty unfriendly and confrontational when I asked him about synching the TB, so I'm guessing this is not going to resolve easily.

Any thoughts? Is it definitely the case that the TB should be synced when a new TPS is installed? thanks

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The throttle body sync is NOT INCLUDED in the TPS recall.

I had the TPS recall in my old 2004 FJR, its definitly not included. Its also NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY either (your dealer is correct).

I know this as I was having some issues on my FJR (later found the issue, a corroded main connector under the tank). It had about 4,000 miles in the clock at the time- (had an intermediate misfire at all RPMs)

Yamaha would NOT even look at the bike until they did a throttle sync (about $125.00 US).


After getting my current FZ (trying to get rid of the vibes), I did some research and bought the above mentioned tool for about $80.00 shipped to my door from the UK. After syncing the FZ, I checked the FJR. The "Yamaha mechanic" sync'ed the bike NOT using the AIR SCREW, but the butterfly screw (with WHITE PAINT ON IT- a strict NO NO, just like the FZ) as I could see the paint broken and the screw turned. I re-adjusted it back and re-synced it correctly. BTW, the FZ is WAY EASIER to sync as there a block with all the screws in one place, the FJR, the adjuster screws were buried, access to the caps (no hoses like the FZ) was fairly recessed. Point being, there's many threads here on syncing the engine, it truly isn't difficult. *If you can change the oil, you can sync it(with the proper tool). It paid for itself MANY TIMES over not only on my bikes but on others(customers).

BTW, there is a very small seal under the TPS that if installed incorrectly will cause issues. IMO, if the bikes running worse immediatly after the TPS replacement, I'd be speaking to the mechanic/dealership, it shouldn't make the rough idle worse.

 

[lanezplitter]

thanks townsends. I'm going to give the TB sync a try to see if that improves how the bike rides. It is not running terribly, but it is a bit more rough on idle and low rpms than before I took it to the shop. I hope that they connected the TPS up properly.

I am going to try with a home-made tool, however, because I'd rather not drop the cash on a carb tune. I did the same a number of years back to synch the carbs on a suzuki bandit. I've googled around, however, and I can't seem to find anybody trying it with a FZ6. I'm assuming that the most important thing is aligning all of the TBs with #1, and that the absolute value of #1 is not as important.

The instructions that I read online for FactoryPro's carb sync tool says something similar to this--that aligning the numbers is what really matters on bikes unless the instructions specify different values for different cyls--in that case there is some difference in the shape of the TBs that is being accounted for and a more accurate tool is necessary.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I once tried to get the absolute # to spec's, couldn't get it there. And yes, just get everything else synced to #1 is fine.

Not in the book, however I found checking the sync at 4,000 (STEADY RPMs) will likely show #4 pulling harder. Re-sync at 4k and double check at idle.

You'll be surprised how idle can be dead on, rev it to 4k and there's a bit of a difference.

The 4K syncing got rid of 90% of my vibs (in the bars and MOSTLY the seat).

It was all within the 10mm spec's, but with some fine tuning, I got it within 3MM's.

I strongly suggest, especially if fine tuning, put a large fan set on high in front of the radiator and header.

 

[FinalImpact]

In addition to the good advice above here are a couple things to consider.
Get the RPM to 12 or 1300.

Before doing a sync I'd throw a little money at some new spark plugs. Its possible it has the originals in it and several have found that gap opens as they wear making additional vibrations. Also, the fit from the caps to the wires can become loose which also contributes to additional vibes. The wires screw into the caps and should be snug and resist turning when the wire is held and cap spun clockwise. Between this and a tune it could help reduce those vibs.

Curious, can you hear any tapping from the valve cover area?? This is rare and unlikely but its possible that the valves need adjusted. If after Plugs, idle speed correction and TB sync you have an uneven idle, its either vacuum leak or time to check valve lash.

As for the exhaust. I have TB on mine and removing the OEM and installing the TB's lessoned some of the vibes. I'd suggest you loosen the 8 bolts at the can mounts and the clamp at the mid pipe and let everything self align and tighten it back up. The rubber on the can mounts will absorb allot but if the pipes are placing undo strain on the mounts it can transmit allot.

It seems kind of strange TPS replacement made this worse! Let us know what you find.

Good luck!

 

[lanezplitter]

hi everyone--thanks for all the great suggestions.

before tackling the throttle sync I decided to check the diagnostic mode on the TPS. I had done so previously before having the dealership replace the original unit, the diagnostic mode showed the calibration on the original unit to be perfect--16 at closed throttle, and 100 at open. I went ahead with the recall mainly because it was recommended for all 2004 bikes, and because I figured it wouldn't make things worse. Maybe I should have left well-enough alone...

Today when I checked the diagnostic mode, I discovered that the TPS the dealer installed is slightly out of spec. At closed it oscillates between 17 and 16, and it won't stay at either one or the other. I'm not sure if this is bad. But at full open, it is at 101. THe spec says that it should be at 97-100. So that is a little off.

I am thinking that I should take the bike back and have them at least get the TPS installed to spec. I may have some other factors that are contributing to my uneven idle (it jumps between 1200 and 1360 pretty erratically, and is worse than before I had the bike in for the TPS recall), so after I get the TPS adjusted properly I will try the things that others have suggested. The air filter looks dirty so I'll change that, and I'll check the plugs. the spec is 8k for the plugs, and I don't think the PO did those. Maybe that's my problem...

I find it hard to imagine that the valves are out of adjustment at 10k when the bike has clearly been treated very nicely, and the service interval for the first adjustment is 26k miles.

 

[lazamus69]

Mine has a nice lope when its warming up. Ahh.....love the sound of the 2bros in the morn..:rockon:

 

[FinalImpact]

^^ agreed about the valves its not likely but is something to consider when a vacuum gauge is connected and it jumps about allot. Note: the larger the orifices on the gauge the more likely it is too see erratic behavior.

Take a look at this when the plugs are out. Mine ran smooth but had a vibration. This helped resolve that issue. http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/48874-cure-bad-vibrations-spark-plug-caps.html

Also, there are four lines with plugs in them. Confirm there are no vacuum leaks from a missing plug after them being in there. See the green sensor for air temp in the air box, right below that are two of the four ports to the throttle body for doing the sync. The other two are on the other side next to the fuel tank connectors. Make sure all vacuum hoses are attached and the throttle body boot clamps to the engine are tight. Air leaks could contribute to this too.

I threw a gauge on mine to gather info and it was pretty rock steady.

Hopefully they get you dialed in on your next visit.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re the TPS slightly higher #.

Pretty much the TPS just electronically sends a signal to the ECU telling it where the throttle is phsically and adjust FI,timing, etc accordingly.

Being several points over is NOT a big deal. If anything, its telling the computer the throttle is open some and accordingly richens up the mix slightly.

With that said, I had the TPS re-call done on my FJR. Doing some research, there is a seal (or O ring, not sure) -fits inbetween the TPS and the throttle body, that should have been replaced. If it wasn't installed (or two of them there), crooked, etc, it can cause issues, (air leak). I'd be inquiring and ask them to check it with the current issues you have..

They shouldn't have pulled any vacuum caps for the TPS, but who knows. As FI posted above, there two vacuum lines on each side, with plugs, used for the throttle sync. Their usually pretty tight in the hose.

When I had my old FJR (2004 was SUPER LEAN below 3,000 RPM's), I had an operating problem the dealership (under warranty) was trying to figure it out. Per mama Yamaha HEAD tech in California, , they had the shop adjust the TPS several points ABOVE 100 (same set up, #'s, etc). Although that wasn't my problem, its not an issue. BTW, I never had an issue with the old, re-called TPS. With the new one, it ran the same as the old, absolutly no difference in performance..

*My issue, I found on-line, (on an FJR forum) was a corroded electrical connector under the fuel tank (nice and green!). Once cleaned, di-lectric grease applied, ran like a champ. Yamaha couldn't find it and it was a known problem posted on the forums by other members.

Some Seafoam and a couple of hard, high RPM runs wouldn't hurt blowing out any excess carbon and cleaning the FI's too IMO.

Good luck and please post your outcome. PM was sent too...