My Engine Stalls for the first 5min

[beuwiq]

Thanks for the pictures I'll check on the vacuum port link once I get home

 

[bdevries]

Sounds normal to me. Why are you trying to rev a cold engine in the first place? It's warming up, hence the higher RPM and richer exhaust. Let your bike warm up before revving/riding and you'll save yourself a ton of problems down the road.

 

[beuwiq]

I have had this same behavior since I got the bike 3 years ago. It came with the K&N air filter.

Basically it goes like this:
- Engine is cold or in the next 2-3 mins following ignition.
- Clutch, move to 1st gear then do a faster than normal start off the line.
- Keep throttle open. Doesn't have to be completely open, just enough for a quick start.
- As the bike start to roll forward, the engine will feel like it's puffing a few times and loose power until it 'catch its breath again'.
- I usually have take it easy on the throttle when starting off the line for 2-3 mins.

After the 2-3 mins, it doesn't happen anymore. Revving in neutral doesn't seem to cause this, it seems a load is needed on the engine for this to happen. Engine never died on me, just feels reluctant to rev. I don't usually rev like crazy on a cold engine but sometimes just more than usual because I need to be quick off the line. Never thought about it too much and put it on the account of a cold engine but it would be interesting to know if other members here have the same behavior from the engine.

p.s: I recently changed my spark plugs and learned my engine runs a bit lean. No aftermarket exhaust. Was told to put more oil on the K&N filter next time I clean it.

Brov you know exactly how my bike feels @"Engine never died on me, just feels reluctant to rev" :thumbup:

Please when you put the oil on your K&N Air Filter did it help

 

[elus1ve]

Brov you know exactly how my bike feels @"Engine never died on me, just feels reluctant to rev" :thumbup:

Please when you put the oil on your K&N Air Filter did it help

I never paid attention to the rev issue after cleaning my filter since I didn't know they could be related and the rev issue was never an issue in mind. Besides I rarely have to do a quick start on cold engine.

I might be doing my yearly cleaning soon. Will let you know how it goes. Having lived with this for 3 years, I wouldn't worry about this though.

 

[beuwiq]

Cold coolant to a part of the throttle body assembly signals the ECU to run the higher idle at cold start up. Some other sensors may as well...

The TPS (Throttle Position Sensor / throttle is usually closed (no throttle at start up) so that doesn't affect cold start high idle. It is telling the computer the position of the throttle at all times...

The TPS simply monitors the throttle position and passes on that info to the ECU for fuel/ignition, etc adjustments... I don't know of any car with a TPS that functions for strictly start up. On any newish car(FI'ed) you don't have to pump the gas pedal. The TPS / throttle is left closed, the computer and its sensors monitor air temps, coolant temps, O2 sensor(s), etc and adjust idle, A/F ratio accordingly.


***As in Post #8, the issue started with the installation of the K&N air filter. Hummm...


If over oiled or under oiled, as I've read here, makes a difference in engine performance. It seems to have made a difference (bad difference) here.

Unless your runnng a PC, etc, IMO, I'd put a stock filter back in and be done with it..

When it started I installed the K&N Air Filter. Thinking it will help

 

[elus1ve]

Well I did the K&N filter cleaning yesterday and put an extra layer of oil in case I wasn't putting enough before. Wasn't expecting any difference but guess what? It did make a difference! It got worst lol. The engine got more hesitant when cold and seemed like it had trouble keeping idle.

Some excess red filter oil eventually leaked out through the carb and it didn't take long to be back to normal. I am not sure the filter would have anything to do with what we are experiencing. If you can put on your oem filter, that would be a great way to see if the problem goes away and confirm the cause.

I don't think it is a problem to start with anyway since this only happens on a cold engine. Also I can't understand why a more breathable filter would affect this problem negatively since cold engine would need more fuel and air to compensate for the temperature, and give more air is exactly what a K&N filter is supposed to do; or is it?

Brov you know exactly how my bike feels @"Engine never died on me, just feels reluctant to rev" :thumbup:

Please when you put the oil on your K&N Air Filter did it help

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If you overload the filter with oil, it'll limit air flow... Oil dripping off the filter is definitly too much...

That filter has to be oiled just right to work correctly...

From what I've read here, IMO, its too easy to screw up. Unless using an aftermarket PC, etc, again, IMO, OEM is the way to go...


Just for instance. On my 2 stroke weekeater, reed valves, carb just rebuilt(pre-mix fuel of course). When WOT for any lenth of time, you get a little bit of "spit back" of fuel/oil(pre-mix) thru the carb.

That sprays back onto the foam air filter. After x # of hours of running, it won't rev fully, breaking up. Pull the air filter, dry out the oil with a paper towel, she'll scream again, (too much oil on the filter simply slowing the air flow)..

 

[iSteve]

I've used K&N filters for a very long time and you would really have to go crazy with the oil to cause any noticeable difference in engine operation. In my 30 years of using them I have never had this happen.

I'm also pretty sure that a clogged filter would cause running problems all the time not just during warm up.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've used K&N filters for a very long time and you would really have to go crazy with the oil to cause any noticeable difference in engine operation. In my 30 years of using them I have never had this happen.

I'm also pretty sure that a clogged filter would cause running problems all the time not just during warm up.

If the oil is literally puddling at the FI bodies, I think you'd have to agree there may be too much oil..

Re the cold issue, when the engine starts dead cold, besdies the higher idle, the ECU is adding additional fuel (you can smell it).

Between the added fuel (in COLD mode) and too much oil on the filter, COLD condition, I can see potential issues; (potential spark plug fouling for one, rough running, etc).

*Once it warms, you don't have the additional fuel supplied by the ECU...

You've got the amount of oil spayed on the filter obviously correct so your not having the above issue.

 

[elus1ve]

The issue isn't about having too much oil on the filter. That was just an experiment to determine if I didn't have enough oil on the filter. Cleared this one.

The issue is about the cold engine performance, which to me isn't an issue to begin with but that was the question of the OP.

 

[Motogiro]

If the motor is pushing out carbon when it's cold it's running rich. You'll smell it's running rich. Generally, if the engine is cold and you open the throttle and it dies, it's not running rich. It's running lean. What is your first thought? Rich or lean? Does it smell like raw fuel at the back end when it's cold? If it does it's probably running rich. Carbon coming out the exhaust? running rich.

As Scott mentioned the TPS controls the signal to tell the computer(ECM/ECU) how open the throttle is. If the TPS is giving the wrong number on throttle open there is going to be a problem and it may be more evident when the engine is cold. Test the TPS to eliminate it.

The whistling is a good sign that air is traveling where it might not be supposed to. This could be a vacuum leak. A vacuum leak is going to cause a lean condition that is more evident when the engine is cold.

There is an air temperature sensor on the air box it does more than tell what the air temp is for your readout. It's used to tell the computer how to adjust fuel. Check it to see that it's plugged in.

The bike should be able to start and take you where you need to go even when it's cold. You just don't push it hard but as far as the running is concerned.

 

[elus1ve]

It is definitely running lean. There is a slight smell of gasoline every morning when I fire it up in the garage.

Thanks for the info. As mentioned before I never paid mind to this but it might be worth checking these out. Will post back with findings.

If the motor is pushing out carbon when it's cold it's running rich. You'll smell it's running rich. Generally, if the engine is cold and you open the throttle and it dies, it's not running rich. It's running lean. What is your first thought? Rich or lean? Does it smell like raw fuel at the back end when it's cold? If it does it's probably running lean. Carbon coming out the exhaust? running rich.

As Scott mentioned the TPS controls the signal to tell the computer(ECM/ECU) how open the throttle is. If the TPS is giving the wrong number on throttle open there is going to be a problem and it may be more evident when the engine is cold. Test the TPS to eliminate it.

The whistling is a good sign that air is traveling where it might not be supposed to. This could be a vacuum leak. A vacuum leak is going to cause a lean condition that is more evident when the engine is cold.

There is an air temperature sensor on the air box it does more than tell what the air temp is for your readout. It's used to tell the computer how to adjust fuel. Check it to see that it's plugged in.

The bike should be able to start and take you where you need to go even when it's cold. You just don't push it hard but as far as the running is concerned.

 

[FinalImpact]

It is definitely running lean. There is a slight smell of gasoline every morning when I fire it up in the garage.

Thanks for the info. As mentioned before I never paid mind to this but it might be worth checking these out. Will post back with findings.

Just an observation but these contradict each other.... ^^ red vs blue unless your saying its got a leak and its not being processed through the engine but is smell of puddled gas somewhere.

Lean and cold is more apt to cause misfires and/or stalling during acceleration. The way the FZ is setup it adds air via Idle Air Control Valve and the ECM MAP adds the fuel based upon the conditions. If one cylinder is subject to a vacuum leak, it can really hinder the others. I would look for vacuum leaks and verify the vacuum sensor is operating correctly. However, without a vacuum gauge thats hard to do (check sensor).

Rich and cold is stinky as its has lots of hydrocarbons (unburned fuel) which are going right out the exhaust. It can be black in nature and clearly visibly to the eyes. Your nose will detect this too.

PS - rich is more stable than lean up to a point where its so rich it misfires.

Black smoke in quantity may have hint of blue as its so much unburned fuel it rinses the cylinder walls of oil, as the oil burns it produces blue smoke.

 

[elus1ve]

Hmm are they contradicting each other? I based my deduction from motorigo's comment:
Does it smell like raw fuel at the back end when it's cold? If it does it's probably running lean. Carbon coming out the exhaust? running rich.

I have never seen anything dark coming out of the exhaust before. The gasoline smell is really at the startup and it's faint. It totally disappears when the engine warms up. In comparison, many a bike on the road smell heavily when you are riding behind them, never on my FZ.

If there was really a problem, wouldn't it affect the engine even when warm?

Anyway, the temperature sensor is plugged in correctly. Gonna check the TPS next. The OP should chime in as well!

Just an observation but these contradict each other.... ^^ red vs blue unless your saying its got a leak and its not being processed through the engine but is smell of puddled gas somewhere.

Lean and cold is more apt to cause misfires and/or stalling during acceleration. The way the FZ is setup it adds air via Idle Air Control Valve and the ECM MAP adds the fuel based upon the conditions. If one cylinder is subject to a vacuum leak, it can really hinder the others. I would look for vacuum leaks and verify the vacuum sensor is operating correctly. However, without a vacuum gauge thats hard to do (check sensor).

Rich and cold is stinky as its has lots of hydrocarbons (unburned fuel) which are going right out the exhaust. It can be black in nature and clearly visibly to the eyes. Your nose will detect this too.

PS - rich is more stable than lean up to a point where its so rich it misfires.

Black smoke in quantity may have hint of blue as its so much unburned fuel it rinses the cylinder walls of oil, as the oil burns it produces blue smoke.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Hmm are they contradicting each other? I based my deduction from motorigo's comment:
Does it smell like raw fuel at the back end when it's cold? If it does it's probably running lean. Carbon coming out the exhaust? running rich.

If there was really a problem, wouldn't it affect the engine even when warm?

The bold (above quote from Motogiro), highlighted from Cliff is in-correct. (at least in that short context)..

Yes, Raw fuel coming out is indeed too rich.

Cliff, mis-type or ??? I suspect a mis-communication / typo or ?


+1 on where's the OP!!

 

[Motogiro]

The bold (above quote from Motogiro), highlighted from Cliff is in-correct. (at least in that short context)..

Yes, Raw fuel coming out is indeed too rich.

Cliff, mis-type or ??? I suspect a mis-communication / typo or ?


+1 on where's the OP!!

Correct that was a typo and I did mean running rich. Too much fuel Vs. air.

 

[elus1ve]

I did the TPS check today and it's fine. Range of 16-100.

Today is a bit colder at 14deg and had stopped close to the highway. When I started the engine later after it had completely cooled down, I hopped on the highway right away with engine temp at 47-55 deg celcius. I noticed that the engine wouldn't rev above 6-7K RPM. It would gradually get better until the 80 deg celcius where it would rev normally. Good thing is that it doesn't take much time to warm up to 80 deg.

It would seem that since I re-oiled the filter and maybe because it's a bit colder today that it is affecting the engine more. Could it be that the oil on the filter is too restricting when cold?

I have to read about vacuum leak and how to test it next. Hopefully I will be able to do this test. If that doesn't yield any return, I will try to remove the filter when the engine is cold and see how it behaves.

 

[elus1ve]

This cold engine issue never bothered me but now it seems that I am chasing this ghost in stead of the OP.

So I did a few things today. I removed the airbox and checked all the vacuum hoses and all the other hoses in general - fuel, etc. Everything seems to be good. All connectors are securely in place. Removed the air filter and used dry paper to absorb any excess oil on the air filter.

Ran the diagnostic mode and nothing abnormal, except in the error history (d61) there are two errors: 30 and 46. The first one is probably due to me accidently dropping my bike :/ but I have no idea of the cause of the second code which is a - power supply to the fuel injection system is not normal. I never seen that error code before or any other error code for that matter. I don't know when the system has logged this error code. This may or may not be related to the cold engine hesitation.

Should I be troubleshooting this code 46? I'm thinking of resetting the log and see if it appears again before going after code 46 since I have never had battery issue of any sort and the bike starts promptly each and every time.

Btw, how do I reset the error code log?

 

[FinalImpact]

From: http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...uel-pump-battery-charging-brake-bleeding.html @ post 12

-->> 62 : Malfunction history code erasure. 00 = No history, 01- 17 = History exists. To clear the memory, switch the Engine Run Switch to ON position (no backup).

Where it says no backup, I'm pretty sure that just means, once its gone, its gone.

**************************
DIAGNOSTIC MODE, ERROR CODES, SENSOR OPERATION
**************************

The ECM has the ability to verify some of the sensors and switches on the vehicle. When placed into diagnostic mode it can also display inactive error codes and some history as well as test both the ignition coils and the fuel injectors. For most of these tests, the FSM instruction the user to disconnect the Fuel Pump power (Green connector under the fuel tank).

Setting the diagnostic mode S2 Models:
1. Turn the main switch to “OFF” and set the engine stop switch to “STOP”.
2. Disconnect the wire harness coupler from the fuel pump (GREEN connector).
3. Simultaneously press and hold the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons, turn the main switch to “ON”, and continue to press the buttons for 8 seconds or more.

• All displays on the meter disappear except the clock and tripmeter displays.
• “dIAG” appears on the LCD meter.​

4. Press the “SELECT” button to select the C0 adjustment mode “C0” or the diagnostic mode “dIAG”. US bikes will only display "dIAG", unless a jumper wire is grounding a pin in the harness to enable C0/C1 fuel trim adjustments.
5. After selecting “dIAG”, simultaneously press the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons for 2 seconds or more to execute the selection.
6. Set the engine stop switch to “OFF”.
7. Select the diagnostic code number that applies to the item that was verified with the fault code number by pressing the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons.

NOTE:
The diagnostic code number appears on the clock LCD (01–70).

• To decrease the selected diagnostic code number, press the “RESET” button. Press the “RESET” button for 1 second or longer to automatically decrease the diagnostic code numbers.
• To increase the selected diagnostic code number, press the “SELECT” button. Press the “SELECT” button for 1 second or longer to automatically increase the diagnostic code numbers.​

8. Verify the operation of the sensor or actuator.

• Sensor operation
The data representing the operating conditions of the sensor appears on the trip LCD.
• Actuator operation
Set the engine stop switch to “RUN” to operate the actuator.​

NOTE:
If the engine stop switch is set to “RUN”, set it to “OFF”, and then set it to “RUN” again.
9. Turn the main switch to “OFF” to cancel the diagnostic mode.

**************************
SYSTEMS that can be Verified:
**************************
To activate, turn Engine Run switch from OFF to ON while mode is selected.
01: Throttle position sensor (throttle angle)
30: Ignition coil #1, #4
31: Ignition coil #2, #3
36: Injector #1, #4
37: Injector #2, #3
48: AI system solenoid
51: Radiator fan motor relay is activated every 5 seconds.
52: Headlight relay is activated every 5 seconds (2 seconds ON, 3 seconds OFF) - 2003+ model only.

Sensor operation table:
01 : Throttle angle Fully closed position 15–17, Throttle fully opened position 97-100
02 • Atmospheric pressure given in mmHg (normal is 760 - average weather)
03 : Differential pressure between air and intake pipe
05 : Air intake temperature (in Celsius)
06 : Cooling liquid temperature (in Celsius)
07 : Absolute speed (000 = wheel stopped). Check with rear wheel (0-999).
08 : Lean angle safety switch control - must be from 0.4-1.4 (upright) to 3.8-4.2 (horizontal).
09 : Battery voltage - track actual battery voltage.
20 : Side stand switch - displays ON or OFF. Retracted = ON, Extended = OFF
21 : Neutral gear switch - displays ON or OFF. Neutral = ON, In Gear = OFF

S2 In Diagnostic Mode:


**************************
Diagnostic Code Table
**************************
NOTE: Where the following "•" is present, this data may not apply to all vehicles. Appears to be the R6 as it has 4 coils and coil ID. FI

Yamaha Fault Codes:

11 • No normal signals are received from the cylinder identification sensor when the engine is started or while the vehicle is being driven.
12 - No normal signals are received from the crankshaft position sensor.
13 - Intake air pressure sensor: open or short circuit detected.
14 - Intake air pressure sensor: hose system malfunction (clogged or detached hose.)
15 - Throttle position sensor: open or short circuit detected. Throttle position sensor (for throttle valves) coupler connection is loose.
19 - Open circuit is detected in the input lead from the sidestand switch to the ECU.
20 • When the main switch is turned to "ON", the atmospheric pressure sensor voltage and intake air pressure sensor voltage differ greatly.
21 - Coolant temperature sensor: open or short circuit detected.
22 - Air temperature sensor: open or short circuit detected.
23 • Atmospheric pressure sensor: open or short circuit detected.
24 - No normal signal is received from the o2 sensor.
30 - Latch up detected. No normal signal is received from the lean angle sensor.
33 - Malfunction detected in the primary wire of the ignition coil (#1 and #4). FZ6
34 - Malfunction detected in the primary wire of the ignition coil (#2 and #3). FZ6
35 • Open circuit detected in the primary lead of the cylinder #3 ignition coil. R6
36 • Open circuit detected in the primary lead of the cylinder #4 ignition coil. R6
39 • Open circuit detected in a primary injector. R6
40 • Open circuit detected in a secondary injector. R6
41 - Lean angle sensor: open or short circuit detected.
42 - No normal signals are received from the speed sensor. Open or short circuit detected in the Neutral switch.
43 - The ECU is unable to monitor the battery voltage (an open circuit in the line to the ECU). Power supply to the injectors and the fuel pump is not normal.
44 - An error is detected while reading or writing on EEPROM (C0 adjustment value).
46 - Power supply to the fuel injection system is not normal.
50 • Faulty ECU memory. (When this malfunction is detected in the ECU, the fault code number might not appear on the meter.)
59 • Throttle position sensor (for throttle cable pulley): open or short circuit detected. Throttle position sensor (for throttle cable pulley) coupler connection is loose.
60 • Throttle servo motor: open or short circuit detected. Defective throttle servo motor. Malfunction in ECU (servo motor driving system).

Er-1 - No signals are received from the ECU.
Er-2 - No signals are received from the ECU within the specified duration.
Er-3 - Data from the ECU cannot be received correctly.
Er-4 - Non-registered data has been received from the meter.

ECU memory check:
60: EEPROM fault code display. No Fault = 00, 01 - 02 Fault detection cylinder. (01: #1 and #4 // 02: #2 and #3)
61 : Error Code memory log - Displays 00 if no error code in memory, displays the Error Code if any (11 to 50). Display changes every two seconds if more than one Error Code in memory, then starting at the LOWEST CODE FIRST and goes up if others exist .
62 : Malfunction history code erasure. 00 = No history, 01- 17 = History exists. To clear the memory, switch the Engine Run Switch to ON position (no backup).
70 : Control number, display from 0 to 255

Following ERROR codes DO NOT allow engine to run:
12-19-30-41-50 and Er-1 to Er-4
Error code 11 allow engine to continue running only if fault appears after engine start.

Following ERROR codes DO allow engine to run but need immediate check because
default values are taken by the ECU: 13-14-15-16-21-22-24-33-34-42-43-44-46

*******************************