Looseness in rear wheel

[seb101]

Hey
Yesterday when I was checking the chain slack and doings regular checks of things I've noticed little loseness when holding the rear wheel at 3 and 9 and moving it right/left. It doesn't happen when i rotate it to 12 and 6 and do the same or top/bottom. I didn't have time to take the wheel off to check if it's losseness on swingarm or on the wheel bearings.
Anyone had similar problems? and what is causing it swingarm bearing or wheel bearings?

Bike is from 2007 and has 28 000 km (~17400 miles) and swingarm pivot bolt, to my knowledge hasn't been serviced/lubricated yet.

 

[RJ2112]

I don't think wheel bearings would give you movement in one direction only. My guess is the axle is not torqued down correctly, allowing some slight movement in the plane of the adjustment. (3 O'clock to 9 O'clock).

Movement as you describe is a bad thing..... I agree that you should inspect further, and probably need to remove the wheel and inspect the bearings, axle, and chain final drive.

For a point of reference, I had 25,000 miles on my FZ6 and had no such issues.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 on checking both the wheel bearings and the swingarm bearings.

If you have a centerstand, put the bike on it. Put something sturdy very close to the end of the swingarm, then try moving the swingarm right to left and vice versa. Use it to help see any movement in the swingarm. If you could feel movement before, this should narrow it down.

I haven't heard of swingarm bearings going bad so soon. I had swingarm bushings on my old 1980 Yamaha XS650 twin wear out but that was close to 30,000 miles on the clock. They were bushings, not bearings, exact same symptoms but mine moved probably 1/4".

 

[greg]

assuming the axle is torqued on i'd check the bearings too, if you have a centerstand then you should be able to easily check the swing arm too

 

[seb101]

Thanks for quick replys. I had some time and it kept buging me so i went into garage and kept on checking. I took the wheel of, checked it's bearings and it's fine, they run smooth.
I didn't take off swingarm as i didnn't have any decent grease around to lubricate it after taking it off so i checked everything i could with swingarm in place. There's small play in it and there's small play in bottom mount of shock (right-left) so i had a look at what parts are in there and i've noticed there's a small note about acceptable play in vertical movement:

The side play I get is probably withing spec (didn't measure it but it doesn't feel much), i have to move it roughly left-right to hear/feel quiet knock, moving it just to one side doesn't generate any noise.

Can you guys please check if you can hear/feel similar thing, when holding by the end of swingarm rapid movement right-left ?

And the other thing, from the chain side grab the rear shock and move it forward/backward (horizontal movement) is there any play you can feel?

Should there be any (i took the mudguard off and i can see a small gap in between shocks mount and the mount in the swingarm).

 

[FinalImpact]

Checked - 08 with 10k miles. . . no side to side movement

 

[seb101]

Alright, thanks for checking FinalImpact.
I've got the grease (finally!) and I should get to it today, one more question do i have to remove the exhaust, besides the mid-cat pipe?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Checking the US Yamaha shop manual shows a bearing on each end of the swing arm where the main bolt connects it to the frame. There is a spacer inbeteen the bearings besides seals on each end.

Just regreasing the now worn bearings won't fix it, something is worn in there and needs replacing.

IMHO, I would have a new set of bearings ready to go in. You may need a "pivot shaft" as well but not likely.

Per the manual, the muffler, the muffler, catalyst and exhaust pipe assembly needs to come off (besides disconnecting the lower shock mount).

There may be some short cuts but If you don't have the parts on hand, be prepared to order and wait for parts to come in...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

You may be able to remove the rear wheel, the main pivot bolt, and maneauver the swing arm to access the needle bearings without pulling it completeatly. If just adding grease, I would try this route, replacing the bearings themselves is another story.

If replacing the bearings, depending on how tight/frozen in they are, it might be easier to just have it on the bench for replacement.

Other's who have done the replacement could confirm yea or nay...

Good luck.

Also, I sent you a PM...

Scott

 

[FinalImpact]

I wouldn't count on needle bearing replacement to correct and "endplay" clearance issue. These bearings are for rotation. The issue you have is one of side load/endplay. You need some form of washer to take up the side to side movement.

But before I say anymore; if grabbing the end of the S/A does it rotate as in loose bearing or simply slide side to side. Rotation or a for aft clunk if pushing and pulling in and out on the S/A means bearing and shaft are worn. Side to side movement with no rotation means you need shim. But I'm not sure that are available to be bought. So your bike may just have a tolerance stack issue. If you have a set of feeler gauges or a dial indicator you could measure the amount and determine what thickness needs to be added.

Although it is likely you could "fake it' by not inserting the bearing housing(s) all the way into the swing arm and leaving them sticking out a tad may take up some of the free play for a while (not recomended) but its really the job of the thrust washers to remove this play.

A whole 1mm seems like a allot. But the fact is I doubt you'd ever notice it in use due to loading from the chain and brakes.

Let me know if this makes sense.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I wouldn't count on needle bearing replacement to correct and "endplay" clearance issue. These bearings are for rotation. The issue you have is one of side load/endplay. You need some form of washer to take up the side to side movement.

But before I say anymore; if grabbing the end of the S/A does it rotate as in loose bearing or simply slide side to side. Rotation or a for aft clunk if pushing and pulling in and out on the S/A means bearing and shaft are worn. Side to side movement with no rotation means you need shim. But I'm not sure that are available to be bought. So your bike may just have a tolerance stack issue. If you have a set of feeler gauges or a dial indicator you could measure the amount and determine what thickness needs to be added.

Although it is likely you could "fake it' by not inserting the bearing housing(s) all the way into the swing arm and leaving them sticking out a tad may take up some of the free play for a while (not recomended) but its really the job of the thrust washers to remove this play.

A whole 1mm seems like a allot. But the fact is I doubt you'd ever notice it in use due to loading from the chain and brakes.

Let me know if this makes sense.

Are you measuring the play inbetween the frame and the swing arm and if so, while the "pivot bolt" is torqued doen to 87' lbs?

Would not the pivot bolt, with 87' lbs of torque not pull an aluminum frame in? Checking my Yamaha shop manual shows no adjustable/replaceable shims/thrust bearings for the area in question. Checking a Yamaha parts website does NOT show ANY adjustment shims: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/partvie...ZS6W_(2007_MOTORCYCLE)/REAR_ARM_(FZS6W_-_2007)

Bearings do wear out, especially in poor weather/riding conditions, etc.

IMHO, shimming a swingarm meant to move up and down FREELY and then tighening it down may very well take out the play out HOWEVER it will at the cost of movement and potential binding. The bearings and mid spacer are designed at a set distance to be torqued down together to allow the swingarm to move freely up and down without any binding..

Again, IMHO, I personally WOULD NO WAY, BE SHIMMING the swing arm...

 

[FinalImpact]

^^ Not my choice either. . . Hopefully once apart he finds the the dust seal is worn and replacing them corrects it as they are acting as thrust washers taking the side to side load.

I guess what I didn't see mentioned was, "was the bolt torqued to spec"?

And if someone did shim and torque it to spec and this caused binding well that would be over correction so less would be better.

 

[seb101]

I took it apart last night, took me over 4 hours (beacuse of the additional givi rack and bolts that didn't want to take it the easy way). To be honest there was still some grease on the axle and on the bearings since it came out of factory but since i had it already out i regreased it all, there wasn't any wear on bush and bearings were smooth. I installed it all in reverse order and after putting it all toghether i can't feel side-by-side movement anymore, will give it a couple of houndred kms before im sure it's gone but at least it's a good sign.

Only thing that keeps bothering me is side-by-side slack in bottom mount of rear shock, like described in the picture:

I can feel it when im grabbing the shock, from chain side and moving it in described direction (from chain side it's futher-back).
In the mount, from right hand side, there's like a bush? holding the bottom mount (and bearing is working on it) and then there's the bolt that goes through so it might be actually how they designed it to give it some slack ?

Can you guys check it if you have the same movement in that place?

Otherwise there would have to be some kind of spacer, that isn't included in manual spec?

p.s. side note to those regreasing swingarm bearings without taking cat-pipe/exhaust out, I've got no idea how you guys are doing it, there's so little space in there

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Congrates on the swingarm issue itself Sebastian!

Could you tell if the main swing arm bolt was initially torqued down FULLY when you took it apart?

As for the lower shock, I just checked mine and it's tight-no play. I was going to put a thin screwdriver inbetween to check for play but there isn't room, its that tight.

Looking at your attached diagram, that long spacer should be all you need with the steel bolt and nut PULLING IT ALL TOGETHER. Unless you see wear on the swing arm, (inside those two small mounting tabs), it should be ok once tightened down fully. The lower bearing/shock rides on that long spacer which shouldn't move when tightened down to spec's.

If the bike is still apart, try assembling WITHOUT THE SHOCK (it appears the lower shock bearing is likely snug in the shock itself) and make sure the spacer, seals are indeed tightened down fully. I would also check for any forward,-back play with the spacer and lower shock bearing themselves. There shouldn't be any play in that assembly once assembled, if so, something is worn..

Pay close attention for any wear on the inside, especially on any aluminum parts as they'll wear faster against any steel part...

 

[seb101]

Hey Scot, thanks for checking.
I didn't measure the torque when i was taking it off, but the nut wasn't so tight as when i torqued it back with specifed torque (120 Nm in metrics) so it might have been little loose...
As to the bottom mount, only part that could be worn is shocks own bottom mount (piece where the bearing and seals sit) as the slack is between that mount and two pieces on the swingarm you put it in between. Longer spacer (1) goes throught the right mount (on the swingarm, throught the left one goes only the bolt itself) and throught the shocks mount (bearing rides on it) so the slack has to be on shocsk bottom piece itself. Bearing and seals look and run smooth, combined (2 seals+bearing) are same width as shocks bottom piece.
The bike is already in one piece but last night i did same check with screwdriver and i was able to get it in between shocks bottom piece and swingarm/shock mount right piece.
Im not sure if it's accessible to measure width of shocks bottom piece(the one with bearing in it) without taking huger off but if it's is there a chance you could measure it so i could compare it ?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If that pivot bolts wasn't torqued to spec initially, the swing arm is going to float back and forth as FinalImpact earlier stated. I assumed it was torqued as specified but perhaps wasn't...

When I checked my shock/swingarm for any play, from underneath, left side, there was no room, the shock was up against the swingarm tabs.

Can you, as the bike sits, move the lower shock back and forth(side to side) on that bearing/bolt? If so approx how much, .020", ?

I don't think that side to side play would be a major issue as long as the seals were keeping crap out out of the needle bearing, the shock isn't going anywhere,( unlike the swingarm, you don't want that moving side to side)..

 

[FinalImpact]

I know I wouldn't like to see any play in the S/A but I have to ask, if you didn't know about, can you tell when you ride it? As I stated early, most of the time the load imposed on it by the chain is going to keep it planted so its very likely that while coasting and doing corner transitions is the only time it may apt to shift from side to side.

So the question is; can you feel it do this? I would think not. Did you find a way to measure how much it moves? A dial indicator would work best and ideally while not under load from the shock and S/A is at ride height.

 

[seb101]

I heaven't had time to acctualy ride it after all that work
Bearing rides on that bush/spacer and seals seem to be doing decent job of keeping bearing clean. I doubt it will cause any problems but I started wondering how the hell could it got there in first place, was the shock and tabs not so tight on the initial install? There doesn't seem to be evidence of any type of wear on neither shocks bottom mount nor on the swingarm tabs, they aren't bent either.

I borrowed this pic from the topic http://www.600riders.com/forum/how-tos/38628-how-replace-swingarm-lube-pivot-bolt.html , so it's not from my bike BUT when you look at the bottom mount and right tab you can see some play/slack aswell

or here (<04 swingarm but slack is there aswell

 

[FinalImpact]

I heaven't had time to acctualy ride it after all that work
Bearing rides on that bush/spacer and seals seem to be doing decent job of keeping bearing clean. I doubt it will cause any problems but I started wondering how the hell could it got there in first place, was the shock and tabs not so tight on the initial install? There doesn't seem to be evidence of any type of wear on neither shocks bottom mount nor on the swingarm tabs, they aren't bent either.

I borrowed this pic from the topic http://www.600riders.com/forum/how-tos/38628-how-replace-swingarm-lube-pivot-bolt.html , so it's not from my bike BUT when you look at the bottom mount and right tab you can see some play/slack aswell

Hmm. . . How could what get where:> "but I started wondering how the hell could it got there in first place, was the shock and tabs not so tight on the initial install?"

The free play in the S/A or the free play in the shock mount, or something else? Perhaps I missed something. . .

 

[seb101]

The freeplay/slack in shocks bottom mount.

I've marked it on this pic (still not from my bike)